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markjazzbassist

Watford (Away) Saturday February 9th

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What I can't for the life of me understand is Silva is trying different combinations and personnel all over the pitch now - except central defence. Its like Koeman insisting on playing Gana and Schneiderlin week in, week out. Keane and Zouma doesn't work, do something else. 

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Just now, Bailey said:

Im not sure we deserved to win but we did deserve a point.

On the whole I thought Gana and Davies were great. Neither foot perfect but they kept at it and battled all the way to the final whistle.

I completely disagree. Davies lacked every bit of quality that he showed the last two matches. He was back to the hard worker with no product that we all expect him to be. Every ball was too heavily weighted and you could see that he couldn’t get anything he wanted to come off for him today. Hopefully he’ll be better again next match after some rest.

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I hated Fat Sam but his record was better than SIlvas by a decent margin. I compare the two to show how bad the guy is at managing a team with this amount of investment. I am past the giving people time he is not up to it and doesn't have the nouse to turn this around.

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1 minute ago, nyblue23 said:

I completely disagree. Davies lacked every bit of quality that he showed the last two matches. He was back to the hard worker with no product that we all expect him to be. Every ball was too heavily weighted and you could see that he couldn’t get anything he wanted to come off for him today. Hopefully he’ll be better again next match after some rest.

I thought he played well, his passing was forward and looked crisp, he tried to drive us up the pitch and won some free kicks.

I thought we looked much better with a midfield 3, just need Gomes to discover his confidence. 

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1 minute ago, London Blue said:

I thought he played well, his passing was forward and looked crisp, he tried to drive us up the pitch and won some free kicks.

I thought we looked much better with a midfield 3, just need Gomes to discover his confidence. 

It's baffling that ppl will except a loss at watford as some sort of positive these players don't give a fuck they are just going through the motions. It's like the end of martinez just passing for the sake of it.

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There is now a 4 point gap to the team above us and a 5 point gap to the team two places above us - and they have games in hand.  Of the 3 teams below us, two are level on points with us and the other is one point behind.  They all have games in hand.

We have a poor team.  Weak defence, a midfield that doesn't create anything and a forward line that can't score.  By the end of February we will be down in 12th place.

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Just now, memmaclub2 said:

It's baffling that ppl will except a loss at watford as some sort of positive these players don't give a fuck they are just going through the motions. It's like the end of martinez just passing for the sake of it.

It's nothing like that. The majority of players that played today do give a shit and are clearly behind the manager. If that was the Martinez time you mentioned we would have lost by 3 or 4.

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2 minutes ago, memmaclub2 said:

I hated Fat Sam but his record was better than SIlvas by a decent margin. I compare the two to show how bad the guy is at managing a team with this amount of investment. I am past the giving people time he is not up to it and doesn't have the nouse to turn this around.

Yep.  When you think about it he's either done well in a weak league, and has never held a job long enough in a strong league to have been able to get through any rough patches.  He has never experienced what he is going through now and has no idea how to get through it.  It looks like he doesn't have either the experience nor the talent to fall back on.

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6 minutes ago, memmaclub2 said:

I hated Fat Sam but his record was better than SIlvas by a decent margin. I compare the two to show how bad the guy is at managing a team with this amount of investment. I am past the giving people time he is not up to it and doesn't have the nouse to turn this around.

So what were you saying the year Moyes finished 17th?

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4 minutes ago, Bailey said:

It's nothing like that. The majority of players that played today do give a shit and are clearly behind the manager. If that was the Martinez time you mentioned we would have lost by 3 or 4.

Completely confused what you saw today that made you think they were behind the manager or not. I wasn't saying he had lost the dressing room more that the perfomances are similar in the lack of effectiveness. I don't want silva sacked because he has offended players but because he can't motivate a very expensive squad to perform enough to beat anyone half decent. Fat sam was a stop gap at a time when it seemed no one decent would touch the club.  Silva was the man we chose after looking at what was out there taking our time to choose and his stats are worse than Fat Sam. I am genuinely interested in anyone who can give me a good reason NOT to sack him and giving him time is not a good reason.

 

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8 minutes ago, nogs said:

So what were you saying the year Moyes finished 17th?

Nogs interested your quoting me a lot happy to debate but make it relevant. Moyes had no budget and for large pasages of time and when he did he was shopping in the bargain bin. Somewhere around 17th was our level. Also I would say moyes  had bought himself time with what he eeked out of players for the investment he made.

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2 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

We have lost our identity as a club 

100% agree I think this sort of happened during or after martinez. I think its about the type of player we bring in moyes had some shockers but he bought a solid low budget core who fought aggressively for wins. you put cahill neville jags baines coleman. All players you could see wanted to die for the shirt. I don't see that anymore.

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1 minute ago, Bunter said:

Did Zouma get two yellows for having a go at the ref ? That’s a one match ban right ?

Yep looks like jags will have to come in if Mina isn'tt fit. 

Probably do a better job too. 

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40 minutes ago, memmaclub2 said:

Completely confused what you saw today that made you think they were behind the manager or not. I wasn't saying he had lost the dressing room more that the perfomances are similar in the lack of effectiveness. I don't want silva sacked because he has offended players but because he can't motivate a very expensive squad to perform enough to beat anyone half decent. Fat sam was a stop gap at a time when it seemed no one decent would touch the club.  Silva was the man we chose after looking at what was out there taking our time to choose and his stats are worse than Fat Sam. I am genuinely interested in anyone who can give me a good reason NOT to sack him and giving him time is not a good reason.

 

The end of Martinez was when the players gave up on him. Today the players kept fighting, worked hard and rather than let their heads drop they actually created chances and should have scored.

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Bollocks. Lovely pass inside by someone, caught everyone out. 

Just watched the replay. The crosser was the person Richarlison was marking and the goal scorer was the person Siggy should have been covering.

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1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

Benitez, arteta,biesla, moyes in that order 

 

1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

We have lost our identity as a club 

If Silva goes its arteta or bust. We need someone who understands the identity of the club. Hell fucking no to Bielsa, he’s openly admitted to spying on teams. 

Wouldnt mind Howe or Unsworth but I know that will be unpopular. 

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I'd be fine with Biesla. He's a manager who gets results, but I'd love to see Arteta here. He's been assistant to Pep, which says a lot. 

That said, Silva should have until the end of the season. 

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4 hours ago, memmaclub2 said:

Nogs interested your quoting me a lot happy to debate but make it relevant. Moyes had no budget and for large pasages of time and when he did he was shopping in the bargain bin. Somewhere around 17th was our level. Also I would say moyes  had bought himself time with what he eeked out of players for the investment he made.

You've proven my point perfectly. Because we've spent £250m in 3 years, fans are falling into the trap of thinking our squad has to be top class and it must be the manager. 

Go look at the squad we had in 03/04 - we had better centre backs, better central midfielders and better strikers than we do now. We were awful that season, and yeah, Moyes was getting panned. We finished fourth the season after. 

All this 'Silva out' stuff, sorry its just knnejerk rubbish from fans that need to blame someone for their club going through the wringer. If after another summer of rebuilding what I see as a rubbish squad we are still in this position come November, I'll be joining the calls for his head. But 7 months in I find calling for him to be sacked fucking ridiculous. 

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Only saw short highlights. I don't know why Gylfi is still starting, we need to try something else there. Bernard for me.

 

Apart from that really looked like finishing let us down. Not sure how much of that can be blamed on Marco. Seemed we did enough to at least have scored if not win it, but we just lack the focus and quality when we need it.

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7 hours ago, chicagoblue said:

Apart from that really looked like finishing let us down. Not sure how much of that can be blamed on Marco.

The utter folly of selling Lukaku and Barkley and not adequately replacing them is the most damning indictment of ownership. DCL is nowhere near good enough for the PL and Tosun, likewise. It's a horror show. 

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13 hours ago, nogs said:

You've proven my point perfectly. Because we've spent £250m in 3 years, fans are falling into the trap of thinking our squad has to be top class and it must be the manager. 

Go look at the squad we had in 03/04 - we had better centre backs, better central midfielders and better strikers than we do now. We were awful that season, and yeah, Moyes was getting panned. We finished fourth the season after. 

All this 'Silva out' stuff, sorry its just knnejerk rubbish from fans that need to blame someone for their club going through the wringer. If after another summer of rebuilding what I see as a rubbish squad we are still in this position come November, I'll be joining the calls for his head. But 7 months in I find calling for him to be sacked fucking ridiculous. 

I agree with the points of value for money on players BUT silva had a hand in the players that came in, in the summer and only digne has been close to what we needed. 6 players coming in can't all be given time to bed in at the prices we paid for them mean he can be blamed for that. Also its not about player buys but player performances which he is perfectly responsible for and not delivering and he can't affect a change in a run of form against any other clubs than teams we should be beating. You keep giving arguments based saying my negatives about him aren't correct but offer up no positives. PLease tell me some reasons why we should keep him as the best you came up with is its not his fault. I think the decline is a lot to do with the more mercinary nature of the players we bought in. I think i said in a post about the moyes era that the player he bought in had heart and played to the death. I don't think we have any or enough of those players now.

 

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14 minutes ago, memmaclub2 said:

I agree with the points of value for money on players BUT silva had a hand in the players that came in, in the summer and only digne has been close to what we needed. 6 players coming in can't all be given time to bed in at the prices we paid for them mean he can be blamed for that. Also its not about player buys but player performances which he is perfectly responsible for and not delivering and he can't affect a change in a run of form against any other clubs than teams we should be beating. You keep giving arguments based saying my negatives about him aren't correct but offer up no positives. PLease tell me some reasons why we should keep him as the best you came up with is its not his fault. I think the decline is a lot to do with the more mercinary nature of the players we bought in. I think i said in a post about the moyes era that the player he bought in had heart and played to the death. I don't think we have any or enough of those players now.

 

Exactly. Saying 'the manager should be doing better, let's sack him' is just the easy reaction. The harder conclusion is that we have spent a lot of money on players who either aren't good enough, don't have the right mentality or don't fit together as a team. That's a tough one for fans to take coz that takes time to sort out. 

I don't know if Silva is the man to lead that job yet. I'm not going to give pretend positives, but I firmly believe any manager deserves more than two thirds of a season before they are judged. And I do not buy for one moment the 'he brought in 6 players, he's responsible' argument. Last summer was a very rushed transfer market for him and Brands to work in, they hardly had any time to assess the squad. He didn't bring in Walcott, Tosun, Keane, Schneiderlin and all the other waste of money crap that got sent out on loan, he didn't spend £45m on a playmaker who doesn't seem to fit into any tactical system. 

Again, I'm not arguing that Silva will be the answer. But the 'we' re losing games, sack the manager' equation is far too simplistic in this case, not to mention premature. 

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I don’t buy into the bullshit of players need time to settle. Let’s get it right they are paid huge sums and get waited on hand and foot. All they have to do is play football. Football is football, I’m sick of the whole he is not used to the pace etc etc. It’s fucking football!!  Digne is quality, Gomes quality but needs to pull his finger out, Bernard is class put played in the wrong position, charly needs a slap and tell him to stop being a whining cunt but again he has it. From what I can see Mina looks like we have done a “koldrup” but you can’t have it all. We need a manager that will actually manage the team. Silva looks like a poster boy for a manager, young, foreign, good looking but he hasn’t got the charisma of an old Jose or a Klopp or even a Martinez. He looks vacant on the touch line. Players will love an easy touch who is there best mate etc etc. That’s what I get from them. They are coasting 

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10 hours ago, chicagoblue said:

Only saw short highlights. I don't know why Gylfi is still starting, we need to try something else there. Bernard for me.

 

Apart from that really looked like finishing let us down. Not sure how much of that can be blamed on Marco. Seemed we did enough to at least have scored if not win it, but we just lack the focus and quality when we need it.

Its probably no surprise that we created our best and most frequent chances when Siggy and Richarlison went off.

Starting Siggy left was completely pointless in that structure as he was just left wide on his own with no-one around him whereas on the right Richarlison, Davies, Kenny and Tosun were combining a lot more(first half anyway).You would have expected it to be the other way around.

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27 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

I don’t buy into the bullshit of players need time to settle. Let’s get it right they are paid huge sums and get waited on hand and foot. All they have to do is play football. Football is football, I’m sick of the whole he is not used to the pace etc etc. It’s fucking football!!  Digne is quality, Gomes quality but needs to pull his finger out, Bernard is class put played in the wrong position, charly needs a slap and tell him to stop being a whining cunt but again he has it. From what I can see Mina looks like we have done a “koldrup” but you can’t have it all. We need a manager that will actually manage the team. Silva looks like a poster boy for a manager, young, foreign, good looking but he hasn’t got the charisma of an old Jose or a Klopp or even a Martinez. He looks vacant on the touch line. Players will love an easy touch who is there best mate etc etc. That’s what I get from them. They are coasting 

Of course players need time to settle. Even one of the greatest PL strikers in Henry talked about the time he needed to get used to the way football was played over here. You can add Ronaldo to that as well as De Gea. They had the added benefit of coming into successful sides and not a shit storm like ours.

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Giving players time to settle is an interesting one and I get that the way the game is played is different in other countries Lookman seemed comfortable enough at Leipzig  and Jadon Sancho went to Dortmund at just 17. Bernard, Gomes, Richie and Silva have a common language, so communication isn'tt too much of an issue. If settling is an issue then we need to weigh that up with future signings, I don't think.

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On 10/02/2019 at 12:05, nogs said:

Exactly. Saying 'the manager should be doing better, let's sack him' is just the easy reaction. The harder conclusion is that we have spent a lot of money on players who either aren't good enough, don't have the right mentality or don't fit together as a team. That's a tough one for fans to take coz that takes time to sort out. 

I don't know if Silva is the man to lead that job yet. I'm not going to give pretend positives, but I firmly believe any manager deserves more than two thirds of a season before they are judged. And I do not buy for one moment the 'he brought in 6 players, he's responsible' argument. Last summer was a very rushed transfer market for him and Brands to work in, they hardly had any time to assess the squad. He didn't bring in Walcott, Tosun, Keane, Schneiderlin and all the other waste of money crap that got sent out on loan, he didn't spend £45m on a playmaker who doesn't seem to fit into any tactical system. 

Again, I'm not arguing that Silva will be the answer. But the 'we' re losing games, sack the manager' equation is far too simplistic in this case, not to mention premature. 

I'd be interested when you got to the point of sacking with Fat Sam.... I never wanted him and I agree with other people the football looks nicer but the results are worse. If we don't win in the next 4 would you sack him then. If we don't win in the next 8 then?..... I am all for giving managers time if you see progress but where is the progress. If you judge him on his own performance he is going backwards he is worse now than at the start of the season. If you judge him on Alladyce (Considered to be our worse manager) he has worse results. When is enough enough for you. Just ran this analysis on our form since the Liverpool defeat Match day 14 to today and it puts us bottom 3 ahead of only Fulham and Huddersfield. Oh and by the way both clubs sacked their manager in that time. So since the liverpool defeat Silva has the worst record of any manager in the league who didn't get sacked.

 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/formtabelle/wettbewerb/GB1?saison_id=2018&min=14&max=27 

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I would judge his season at the end.

In my time I have watched us go on near 12 months with no away wins, runs with no wins at all, and six match winning streaks. 

A season only counts at the end. If you finish bottom but won your first six.... no one cares, you still get relegated.

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Compare our form 2-2-5 under Koeman when he was sacked to the current rut under Silva 3-2-9 and its hard to comprehend why one was sacked and the other is still here. 

Worth noting Koeman played five games (losing four) against the top 6 compared to Silva's four (lost all four). 

Edit. A bit more food for thought. Silva is on course to get 46 points based on our current points total per game. This would be our lowest in over a decade. Or if the current slump continues we could be relegated, bare in mind we've got 5 games against the top 6 that we tend to lose against, we got a draw against Chelsea though so a fair estimate would be 1 point expected. Discounting the defeats from the top 6 in the recent stats then we are 3-2-5 against the rest of the league, using this form as an indicator we'd get roughly 2-1-3 in the other 6 games, 7 points. So roughly 8 points would give us a total of 41 and a squeaky bum. 

I'm hopeful of more points than that but purely on blind optimism. Surely we're due a win against the top 6 ideally the red shite and we can't keep conceding silly goals but I'm not gonna get my hopes up too much. 

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22 hours ago, pete0 said:

Compare our form 2-2-5 under Koeman when he was sacked to the current rut under Silva 3-2-9 and its hard to comprehend why one was sacked and the other is still here. 

Worth noting Koeman played five games (losing four) against the top 6 compared to Silva's four (lost all four). 

Edit. A bit more food for thought. Silva is on course to get 46 points based on our current points total per game. This would be our lowest in over a decade. Or if the current slump continues we could be relegated, bare in mind we've got 5 games against the top 6 that we tend to lose against, we got a draw against Chelsea though so a fair estimate would be 1 point expected. Discounting the defeats from the top 6 in the recent stats then we are 3-2-5 against the rest of the league, using this form as an indicator we'd get roughly 2-1-3 in the other 6 games, 7 points. So roughly 8 points would give us a total of 41 and a squeaky bum. 

I'm hopeful of more points than that but purely on blind optimism. Surely we're due a win against the top 6 ideally the red shite and we can't keep conceding silly goals but I'm not gonna get my hopes up too much. 

👍

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3 minutes ago, MikeO said:

@pete0really "liked" a thumbs up emoji:rofl:?

You two really do need to get a room:D!

I know it’s good when someone says something that makes sense and others recognise it, even Shukes gave it recognition as being a good well thought out post maybe we could have a three some. 

I know Mike leave the dark side of this forum and come over to the light side it’s so much more fun, and we could have a four some what do you think 🤔 want to have some fun for once 👍🤣

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