New season ahead

[pete0]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

But Messi has also scored 100-plus CL goals. And has scored more goals for Argentina than Aguero. Ronaldo and Ibrahimovic, the others you mentioned, have hardly played for shit teams have they? 

The point is they've all done it at more than one and with more than one very specific system. Whereas he doesn't fit for Argentina, he's not as adaptable. As a whole the Argentina team is better with Aguero and even Higuian up top. You watch them with Messi and its disjointed and he crumbles under the pressure. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/lionel-messi/nationalmannschaft/spieler/28003/hauptwettbewerb/WM/verein_id/3437

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/lionel-messi/nationalmannschaft/spieler/28003/hauptwettbewerb/CA/verein_id/3437

As for being top scorer it's only due to playing more qualifiers against poorer opposition. 

[nogs]

Matt - my memory of that Portuguese side was that they were very well drilled defensively with a set of players who were clearly very good at carrying out a tactical plan. Which is why every top club in Europe is now falling over themselves to sign Portuguese players, they are brilliantly coached from a young age to be highly effective. Yes, having a world class goalscorer helps, but Ronaldo was hardly Maradona in 86 in that tournament. He just did what he always does, bangs in goals. 

Pete - the thing with Messi is it isn't just his goals, and his goal scoring record is up there with the best ever. He is also a creative genius, he has vision and the ability to weight a pass like very few other can, he can dribble, he has sublime touch. Goals are just the icing on the cake. And you can't blame him for Argentina failing to live up to expectations, they've been a consistent let down since 86. That late 90s post Maradona team was wonderful on paper, won nothing. The 2006 team they took to Germany led by Riquelme, best side to watch in the tournament, lost. Argentine football as a whole has a bigger chip on its shoulder than England even. Messi's record of losing three major finals with them isn't bad! 

Anyway, back to Everton - when does the PL start again?! 

[pete0]

2 minutes ago, nogs said:

Matt - my memory of that Portuguese side was that they were very well drilled defensively with a set of players who were clearly very good at carrying out a tactical plan. Which is why every top club in Europe is now falling over themselves to sign Portuguese players, they are brilliantly coached from a young age to be highly effective. Yes, having a world class goalscorer helps, but Ronaldo was hardly Maradona in 86 in that tournament. He just did what he always does, bangs in goals. 

Pete - the thing with Messi is it isn't just his goals, and his goal scoring record is up there with the best ever. He is also a creative genius, he has vision and the ability to weight a pass like very few other can, he can dribble, he has sublime touch. Goals are just the icing on the cake. And you can't blame him for Argentina failing to live up to expectations, they've been a consistent let down since 86. That late 90s post Maradona team was wonderful on paper, won nothing. The 2006 team they took to Germany led by Riquelme, best side to watch in the tournament, lost. Argentine football as a whole has a bigger chip on its shoulder than England even. Messi's record of losing three major finals with them isn't bad! 

Anyway, back to Everton - when does the PL start again?! 

Even from the touch line in the final Ronaldo was influential. A proper leader. For Argentina Messi fails to be that guy. 

I'd argue they'd be a better side without him. He might have the ability to do those things but at international level he just doesn't live up to the hype. Read the other day a quote from an ex barca player who said Pep moaned at him for passing to Messi so much, but the player argued back that if you don't get him on the ball every couple of minutes then Messi becomes disengaged. At international level you won't get the ball as much and that might be why he's switching off. 

[Matt]

50 minutes ago, nogs said:

Matt - my memory of that Portuguese side was that they were very well drilled defensively with a set of players who were clearly very good at carrying out a tactical plan. Which is why every top club in Europe is now falling over themselves to sign Portuguese players, they are brilliantly coached from a young age to be highly effective. Yes, having a world class goalscorer helps, but Ronaldo was hardly Maradona in 86 in that tournament. He just did what he always does, bangs in goals. 

Pete - the thing with Messi is it isn't just his goals, and his goal scoring record is up there with the best ever. He is also a creative genius, he has vision and the ability to weight a pass like very few other can, he can dribble, he has sublime touch. Goals are just the icing on the cake. And you can't blame him for Argentina failing to live up to expectations, they've been a consistent let down since 86. That late 90s post Maradona team was wonderful on paper, won nothing. The 2006 team they took to Germany led by Riquelme, best side to watch in the tournament, lost. Argentine football as a whole has a bigger chip on its shoulder than England even. Messi's record of losing three major finals with them isn't bad! 

Anyway, back to Everton - when does the PL start again?! 

I saw him dragging a team along with him by banging in goals. Had he not played most of the tournament they wouldn’t have gotten out of the group stages. 

[Shukes]

9 hours ago, nogs said:

See I have to take issue with this. What tournaments has Ronaldo won at Man Utd, Real Madrid, Juventus and Portugal with rubbish players around him?? 

Ye ok not rubbish players, but I don’t think anywhere near the quality of Barcelona. The Messi/Ronaldo debate is and always will be subjective and different for each. 

I would love to see Messi in the premier league to be honest.

[Palfy]

12 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Ye ok not rubbish players, but I don’t think anywhere near the quality of Barcelona. The Messi/Ronaldo debate is and always will be subjective and different for each. 

I would love to see Messi in the premier league to be honest.

I think he would struggle in the PL there’s a lot more steel and aggression in this league compared to what he is used to. 

[Shukes]

Jags gone.

Gana gone. 

Zouma gone.

Mina banned ( possibly) 

Oh shit!!!!!!! ok now I am panicking!

[Palfy]

8 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Jags gone.

Gana gone. 

Zouma gone.

Mina banned ( possibly) 

Oh shit!!!!!!! ok now I am panicking!

Don’t panic mate we’ve got weeks to go we never buy players until the last 2 hours, new management same fucking shit lastminute.com. 

[Finn balor]

Deffo need a centre half. Mina doesn’t convince me and we need a player with some magic in the final third 

[Bailey]

On 23/07/2019 at 15:06, markjazzbassist said:

hudson odoi is unproven in the prem, he's english so he's the new messi (not for me but for all of you guys) but he scored a sum total of 0 goals in the league last year.  vault me he won't hit double figures.  giroud is ancient and he has never scored 20 in the premier league EVER.  last time was 2011/2012 in ligue 1 21 goals.  he's also going to be getting a lot of attention now that hazard is gone.  pedro and batshuayi don't scare me at all, pedro is getting old too at 31.

 

i'm not saying tosun and niasse dcl will score more, i'm saying they are not a good side on paper and i truly believe that they will be outside top 7.

Have you watched Hudson-Odoi though? I haven't seen loads but he looks half decent to me, its more of a case of how he comes back from injury. He got one assist from not that many minutes in the Premier League and 4 goals in 9 games in the Europa. Its not much but its an indication that he has a little of something. 

Giroud has scored 16 in two seasons and 14 after 20 something games once. He never used to start games all season either, but I havent checked the minutes played. He is capable of scoring around that mark and age isnt going to mean much to him because his game isnt about anything you would associate a younger player with. If anything it will be injuries.

Im not a massive fan of either the other two players you mentioned but they will chip in goals because their records have proven it. 

Put it this way their wingers and strikers will score more than ours. 

[Finn balor]

Gilfi and Charley will get double figures. Bernard needs to contribute and depends who we sign upfront 

[sydneyneil]

We have lost two of our best players and have two players who can score. We need goals and two key cogs of our defensive make up replacing. Hopefully a busy next two weeks.

 

[Bailey]

On 23/07/2019 at 15:12, Finn balor said:

Abraham to me is a championship player. His one season in the prem he was terrible for Swansea. 

39 games 8 goals and 5 assists for Swansea (all comps).

Last year DCL played 38 games 8 goals and 3 assists (all comps).

DCL was 1 in 4 in League One but Abraham scored every 1.4 games in the Championship. 

I dont know whether he will become a 12-15 goal striker in the PL but I would wager that he is more likely to do it than DCL.

[pete0]

5 minutes ago, Bailey said:

39 games 8 goals and 5 assists for Swansea (all comps).

Last year DCL played 38 games 8 goals and 3 assists (all comps).

DCL was 1 in 4 in League One but Abraham scored every 1.4 games in the Championship. 

I dont know whether he will become a 12-15 goal striker in the PL but I would wager that he is more likely to do it than DCL.

DCL was league Two, but don't think that period would be comparable. He was learning a new position (still is) and only filled out as a man the season after joining us. 

Just looking at the league games and their records are similar. Only thing is watching them DCL offers more all round as a player but Abrahim is more clinical with his feet. I wouldn't swap them. Think Abrahim will end up a second choice at a West Ham or first choice for a yoyo club. Whereas think DCL will end up first choice for a none top 7 or second choice for us assuming we eventually turn the top 6 into a 7.

TA: 1715 mins 5 goals 3 assists

DCL: 1769 mins 6 goals 5 assists 

 

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

DCL was league Two, but don't think that period would be comparable. He was learning a new position (still is) and only filled out as a man the season after joining us. 

Just looking at the league games and their records are similar. Only thing is watching them DCL offers more all round as a player but Abrahim is more clinical with his feet. I wouldn't swap them. Think Abrahim will end up a second choice at a West Ham or first choice for a yoyo club. Whereas think DCL will end up first choice for a none top 7 or second choice for us assuming we eventually turn the top 6 into a 7.

TA: 1715 mins 5 goals 3 assists

DCL: 1769 mins 6 goals 5 assists 

 

I would agree with that. DCL offers more to the team but give them the same chances and Abraham will score more.

[Shukes]

28 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I would agree with that. DCL offers more to the team but give them the same chances and Abraham will score more.

That’s a fair comment. And this is where Marco needs to make a big decision.

Build a style suited for DCL, or go for a style that suits a finisher. 

Not saying build a team around DCL by the way, just choose a style.

[markjazzbassist]

Just now, Shukes said:

That’s a fair comment. And this is where Marco needs to make a big decision.

Build a style suited for DCL, or go for a style that suits a finisher. 

Not saying build a team around DCL by the way, just choose a style.

i always thought Marco was a suit man, looks good in them

[Shukes]

10 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i always thought Marco was a suit man, looks good in them

Twat!

Everyones after me tonight haha.

[pete0]

15 minutes ago, Shukes said:

That’s a fair comment. And this is where Marco needs to make a big decision.

Build a style suited for DCL, or go for a style that suits a finisher. 

Not saying build a team around DCL by the way, just choose a style.

At the minute it suits DCL. Gylfi is the odd man out, his goal stats are brilliant but over 90 minutes he just doesn't get on the ball and influence the game enough. 

[Shukes]

24 minutes ago, pete0 said:

At the minute it suits DCL. Gylfi is the odd man out, his goal stats are brilliant but over 90 minutes he just doesn't get on the ball and influence the game enough. 

Someone call a paramedic please. I’m really ill. This must be the second time in a day me and PeteO are on the same page.

Im worried I might start agreeing with Palfy next.

Only joking, I’m Ill not bloody dying

[Finn balor]

I agree about Gilfi, I like him but that’s as far as it goes. I hope he has a really good season and we get a good offer for him that would allow us to buy a more dynamic player 

[Palfy]

38 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Someone call a paramedic please. I’m really ill. This must be the second time in a day me and PeteO are on the same page.

Im worried I might start agreeing with Palfy next.

Only joking, I’m Ill not bloody dying

Wanker 

[Bailey]

40 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Someone call a paramedic please. I’m really ill. This must be the second time in a day me and PeteO are on the same page.

Im worried I might start agreeing with Palfy next.

Only joking, I’m Ill not bloody dying

I agree with you both. Something fucking weird is going on!

[Shukes]

43 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I agree with you both. Something fucking weird is going on!

It’s this weather mate, we just can’t handle it... sends our heads all crazy.

[Ghoat]

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

At the minute it suits DCL. Gylfi is the odd man out, his goal stats are brilliant but over 90 minutes he just doesn't get on the ball and influence the game enough. 

Agreed on both points.

I'd rather a system around Gylfi that takes advantage of his considerable technical and creativity strengths, as opposed to a style requiring athleticism at his position, because that seems to often limit his influence and ability to link up.  Our attackers (and maybe some mids) are athletic enough to often compensate during imperfect passages of play and spacing.  Gylfi can win matches, but no matter how class his footballing brain is, he can't be where his legs won't take him.  I wouldn't say we are wasting him, but I think we could actually get more assists and key passes from him if we built from him out, instead of the other way around. But is it wise to build around a 30 year old?

I guess the upside is that he may still have 3-4 peak years left in the right system, because he isn't as reliant on the athleticism that wanes at 30+.  

 

Or just bring Kean and Neves in, it will sort itself FFS!

[StevO]

5 hours ago, Bailey said:

I would agree with that. DCL offers more to the team but give them the same chances and Abraham will score more.

I think DCL had a decent season last season, but Abraham (in the Championship) had a brilliant season. 

This year will be a much fairer comparison. 

[Finn balor]

I’d spurs get Dybala then they will be contenders this year 

[Ghoat]

1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

I’d spurs get Dybala then they will be contenders this year 

It's starting to look like Erikson may not be moving. 

[Matt]

14 hours ago, Bailey said:

I would agree with that. DCL offers more to the team but give them the same chances and Abraham will score more.

And that’s the whole point, he offers more to the team, allowing others to get the goals. Alternatively we could have a Lukaku who gets all the goals but doesn’t contribute much more. That was a necessity when he was here, it’s not the case now. 

[Btay]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

And that’s the whole point, he offers more to the team, allowing others to get the goals. Alternatively we could have a Lukaku who gets all the goals but doesn’t contribute much more. That was a necessity when he was here, it’s not the case now. 

This here. Except DCL is only going to get better and get more goals/assists.