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Caraboa Cup

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42 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

One game extra a week? Hardly going to kill them. I’d love to win the league cup 

That and we’ve got much better depth of squad for the most part and where we haven’t we can give chances to the youth. I’m not worried about it at all. 

That said, I’m pretty sure Steve is being sarcastic 

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2 hours ago, JimmytheJimster said:

Would love a good cup run be it in this or the fa, it's been too long since I went Wembley with Everton. A good cup run would breed confidence and if we aspire to play European football we better get use to playing twice a week. 

Maybe we’ll get to play Leyton Orient or Accrington Stanley in the final. :)

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

That and we’ve got much better depth of squad for the most part and where we haven’t we can give chances to the youth.

 

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

We have a big squad and if we want to keep everyone happy then we need to play as many games as we can.

I agree with these comments, but In past seasons there’s been significant disagreement on TT about whether to rely on depth/big squad or stick with our “top 11” in cup matches.  I expect such a debate to begin immediately at the conclusion of the Aston Villa match, or by the next morning at the latest.

Granted, it may not be absolutely clear which players constitute our “top 11” only 3 matches into the season.

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I always think it’s a good chance to give others a run out, as long as the team is still strong enough and motivated to win. 

If we’re talking specifically about the Lincoln game; bringing in players like Baines, Sidibe, Davies, Walcott and Tosun, we should still be strong enough to win the game. 

Changing the whole starting 11 can be a bit too risky for me though. 

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1 minute ago, StevO said:

I always think it’s a good chance to give others a run out, as long as the team is still strong enough and motivated to win. 

If we’re talking specifically about the Lincoln game; bringing in players like Baines, Sidibe, Davies, Walcott and Tosun, we should still be strong enough to win the game. 

Changing the whole starting 11 can be a bit too risky for me though. 

Agreed. We could play those players and still have a very strong squad -- the main benefit of having depth. I really want us to go for the cups this year. It's been too long without a trophy.

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

That said, I’m pretty sure Steve is being sarcastic 

Tongue in cheek maybe since virtually no-one will agree with me. 

There’s a business simulation game that’s popular when teaching graduate business students. The class is divided into teams, and each team manages their resources in order to maximize success. Every team starts out with the same products, cash in hand, factories, and so on. The winning team, therefore, succeeds on its own merits and decisions. 

Without meaning to give away secrets to any aspiring business student here :), the biggest factor in success is having a strategy, sticking to it, and not getting distracted. In particular, teams must be decisive by immediately selling factories making a product inconsistent with their strategy, even if that product is profitable. The temptation, of course, is to try to succeed with everything, but that rarely works. You have to decide upfront and then ignore all the distractions and temptations. How many real companies have struggled because they won a big contract that, in truth, they should have avoided?

This goes against the grain. Won’t a big win breed success? Not if it distracts from the main goal. Resources get tied up on the wrong thing, and the team loses sight of its real goal. The key to any strategy is not so much what you will do but what you won’t do. Ask any experienced CEO. 

Our real goal is to participate in the Champions League every year, which means becoming once again a top four club. It helps that the real money comes from a top four finish, the added TV money that comes from it, and the new marketing cash awarded to the big clubs. The Carabao Cup gains us nothing (anyone who believes the Europa is worth it, let me point you to Roberto’s second season). The prize money is pitiful. Reaching the final rounds would cause us to drop points in the league, the financial cost of which would far outweigh any prize money from the cup. 

Again, the key to success is strategy, deciding what NOT to do, and sticking to it. If our strategy is to become a Champions League regular, then forget about all else. 

(Other top teams know this, which is why Bradford, Burton, and the rest make it to the semis or even the final.)

Apologies for harping on about this, but it’s about time we started wearing big boy pants. 

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4 minutes ago, StevO said:

I always think it’s a good chance to give others a run out, as long as the team is still strong enough and motivated to win. 

If we’re talking specifically about the Lincoln game; bringing in players like Baines, Sidibe, Davies, Walcott and Tosun, we should still be strong enough to win the game. 

Changing the whole starting 11 can be a bit too risky for me though. 

If playing our second team bolsters our chances of finishing in the top four, go for it. We won’t reach the semis, but that’s no loss. 

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40 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Tongue in cheek maybe since virtually no-one will agree with me. 

There’s a business simulation game that’s popular when teaching graduate business students. The class is divided into teams, and each team manages their resources in order to maximize success. Every team starts out with the same products, cash in hand, factories, and so on. The winning team, therefore, succeeds on its own merits and decisions. 

Without meaning to give away secrets to any aspiring business student here :), the biggest factor in success is having a strategy, sticking to it, and not getting distracted. In particular, teams must be decisive by immediately selling factories making a product inconsistent with their strategy, even if that product is profitable. The temptation, of course, is to try to succeed with everything, but that rarely works. You have to decide upfront and then ignore all the distractions and temptations. How many real companies have struggled because they won a big contract that, in truth, they should have avoided?

This goes against the grain. Won’t a big win breed success? Not if it distracts from the main goal. Resources get tied up on the wrong thing, and the team loses sight of its real goal. The key to any strategy is not so much what you will do but what you won’t do. Ask any experienced CEO. 

Our real goal is to participate in the Champions League every year, which means becoming once again a top four club. It helps that the real money comes from a top four finish, the added TV money that comes from it, and the new marketing cash awarded to the big clubs. The Carabao Cup gains us nothing. The prize money is pitiful. Reaching the final rounds would cause us to drop points in the league, the financial cost of which would far outweigh any prize money from the cup. 

Again, the key to success is strategy, deciding what NOT to do, and sticking to it. If our strategy is to become a Champions League regular, then forget about all else. 

(Other top teams know this, which is why Bradford, Burton, and the rest make it to the semis or even the final.)

Apologies for harping on about this, but it’s about time we started wearing big boy pants. 

Steve, as you know with business, there are both long-term and short-term goals. Being consistent participants in the Champions League is one of the long-term visions. On the short term front, I'd be highly surprised if we would completely ignore the benefits of winning a seasonal cup.

There are financial gains, and then there is pride and reputation with being a football club. A club is a business at the end of the day, but there's more to it than just financial return.

 

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6 minutes ago, StevO said:

That’s not what it’s about for me. It’s another game to go to, another day out, another trip to Wembley. 

If we get to Europa, it’s a chance for a trip away with the lads or my dad to watch the blues. 

I’d love nothing more than a trophy, that’s what the game is about, and making memories while you’re there. 

We might never make the top four, so enjoy the ride trying to get there.

Picking up any trophy helps the club grow, and enjoying playing European football is a good thing regardless of which tier for me. 

Well said.

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6 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Here we go again: The distraction of the Mickey Mouse cup. Focus, focus, focus. Do we want to break into the top six or not?

There’s nothing Mickey Mouse here Steve, I think you’ll find he’s from you neck of the woods 😀

I’d love a trip to Wembley to see us lift the league cup, I expect most would want that rather than to finish 5th or 6th, and those that don’t are Goofy and need to get a one way ticket to Pluto. 

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1 hour ago, Elston Gunnn said:

 

I agree with these comments, but In past seasons there’s been significant disagreement on TT about whether to rely on depth/big squad or stick with our “top 11” in cup matches.  I expect such a debate to begin immediately at the conclusion of the Aston Villa match, or by the next morning at the latest.

Granted, it may not be absolutely clear which players constitute our “top 11” only 3 matches into the season.

Like StevO says below it's about making changes that aren't the complete 11 and also don't weaken the team too much. Starting the guys that come off the bench or need games under their belt to get used to the tactics/country etc.

1 hour ago, StevO said:

I always think it’s a good chance to give others a run out, as long as the team is still strong enough and motivated to win. 

If we’re talking specifically about the Lincoln game; bringing in players like Baines, Sidibe, Davies, Walcott and Tosun, we should still be strong enough to win the game. 

Changing the whole starting 11 can be a bit too risky for me though. 

I think it would be a great chance to start Kean, Delph & Gbamin too. Granted they may be starters by then but the more time they have on the pitch, the more time they have to adapt.

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2 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

The biggest factor in success is having a strategy, sticking to it, and not getting distracted. In particular, teams must be decisive by immediately selling factories making a product inconsistent with their strategy, even if that product is profitable. The temptation, of course, is to try to succeed with everything, but that rarely works.

That's not an universal receipt for success, ask Xerox. They stuck on their strategy and blew the potential of the Alto. Could have been bigger than Apple, Microsoft and any other tech company today.

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

Like StevO says below it's about making changes that aren't the complete 11 and also don't weaken the team too much. Starting the guys that come off the bench or need games under their belt to get used to the tactics/country etc.

I think it would be a great chance to start Kean, Delph & Gbamin too. Granted they may be starters by then but the more time they have on the pitch, the more time they have to adapt.

Not sure why you’d want to risk playing with 10 men?  :P 

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I still pinch myself that a club of our stature haven’t won this competition. I must admit it still annoys me especially as it’s not got the greatest prestige and should be easier to win. I want to win this and we need a final as it’s been too long. Look at the winners in the last 10 years and you’ll see it still the top 4/5 clan names on it. Success breeds success. 

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I really hope moshiri bill marcel and Marco make it a point to try and win a cup.  We could use it as a fan base and a club.  Europe for Marco is his third year sound appropriate.  I wasn’t for it this year because I thought it was too early for him and wanted him to have less pressure and more time with the club.  

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The league Cup is a meaningless competition that the top teams give their reserves a run out in. Like StevO says if we get the final it's more about the fans having a day out. 

Winning would be a bonus to a piss up but no way would winning the league Cup satisfy me as winning a trophy just like the preseason Cup competitions don't. I'm surprised they've not scrapped it yet. 

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8 minutes ago, barryj said:

I personally couldn’t disagree more. This is a competition that’s nearly 60 years old and is part of English football fabric. The competition is really important for the whole football league and allows teams further down the opportunity of going head to head with the ‘big’ clubs with the bonus of a significant financial boost. I agree it’s behind the FA cup, Premier League or European cups in importance but to compare it to pre season competitions is laughable. I’d value this more than a charity shield or super cup where only two team compete. This is a proper competition, that we’ve never won and when we are only playing in three competitions this season we have to (& I’m sure will) take it seriously. 

Completely agree, although Pete has a point. It seems like preseason type games, however that’s only because it’s treated as such. At the end of the day, it’s a trophy, it’s a Europa League spot, it’s financially beneficial. If it impacts negatively on performances in other competitions, that’s solely the fault of the management not preparing properly not the competition. We need to treat it with as much respect as any other competition. 

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1 hour ago, aaron said:

Go and ask Man City if it means nothing. It was the start of their trophy haul in the recent years.

Honestly cant believe I've read people turning their nose up at a meaningful trophy. Absolute disgrace that.

Exactly. I work in Manchester, and though they are over the moon about the Premier League, they are still made up at putting trophies in the cabinet on a regular basis. 

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21 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

There’s a business simulation game that’s popular when teaching graduate business students. The class is divided into teams, and each team manages their resources in order to maximize success. Every team starts out with the same products, cash in hand, factories, and so on. The winning team, therefore, succeeds on its own merits and decisions. 

 

Sounds similar, may be the same program we used in the final class to finish a business degree - ours was a shoe company, where you make one set of decisions a week, got the results and made another set of decisions the next week over the course of the term. My team wasn't interested, and let me do all that, and I just reported what I was doing/had done. Slight brag, we finished the game with more market share and company value than the other 5 teams combined ;) I loved that program/assignment

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9 hours ago, barryj said:

I personally couldn’t disagree more. This is a competition that’s nearly 60 years old and is part of English football fabric. The competition is really important for the whole football league and allows teams further down the opportunity of going head to head with the ‘big’ clubs with the bonus of a significant financial boost. I agree it’s behind the FA cup, Premier League or European cups in importance but to compare it to pre season competitions is laughable. I’d value this more than a charity shield or super cup where only two team compete. This is a proper competition, that we’ve never won and when we are only playing in three competitions this season we have to (& I’m sure will) take it seriously. 

Maybe in the past but it's more an inconvenience to premier league clubs with lower ones prioritising trying to stay up and the higher teams focusing on the league or other cups, (man u even forfeited the FA cup which is more prestigious than the league Cup one year to play in another nothing Cup). 

Matt's spot on with his view on my way of thinking. The competition isn't taken seriously, some fans even begrudge paying to go watch if. (Personally I don't mind if it gives us a good chance to see the up and comers given a go.) 

6 hours ago, StevO said:

Exactly. I work in Manchester, and though they are over the moon about the Premier League, they are still made up at putting trophies in the cabinet on a regular basis. 

They were a yoyo club for years. Given City's current rise how many of them would now be satisfied for just a league cup and none top 7 finish. Most would have more ambition. Personally I wouldn't attend a bus tour for a bull piss Cup, more so if the red shite are parading around with the European one. 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Maybe in the past but it's more an inconvenience to premier league clubs with lower ones prioritising trying to stay up and the higher teams focusing on the league or other cups, (man u even forfeited the FA cup which is more prestigious than the league Cup one year to play in another nothing Cup). 

Matt's spot on with his view on my way of thinking. The competition isn't taken seriously, some fans even begrudge paying to go watch if. (Personally I don't mind if it gives us a good chance to see the up and comers given a go.) 

They were a yoyo club for years. Given City's current rise how many of them would now be satisfied for just a league cup and none top 7 finish. Most would have more ambition. Personally I wouldn't attend a bus tour for a bull piss Cup, more so if the red shite are parading around with the European one. 

What has city’s situation got to with this conversation? This is the stupidest post so far you have put up. Why would city fans be happy with a league cup and no top 7 finish? That’s not even a question. It’s about us. Unfortunately I think your from the “premiership era” of a fan. That means you have no idea of what happened  before that. You may have read about it. But you weren’t there at semi finals at villa park or finals against Liverpool in the the milk cup when we were robbed. Have you watched us live when lescott fucked up against Chelsea in the semi final and we had to get the bus back home? Or did you just watch it from your bedroom with your socks that were like stale pitta breads under your bed from all the wanking u were doing?  You wouldn’t celebrate us winning the league cup? Your a mug. You should go and support city but you’d probably be laughed off there because you think de Bruyne can’t spot a pass 

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1 minute ago, Finn balor said:

What has city’s situation got to with this conversation? This is the stupidest post so far you have put up. Why would city fans be happy with a league cup and no top 7 finish? That’s not even a question. It’s about us. Unfortunately I think your from the “premiership era” of a fan. That means you have no idea of what happened  before that. You may have read about it. But you weren’t there at semi finals at villa park or finals against Liverpool in the the milk cup when we were robbed. Have you watched us live when lescott fucked up against Chelsea in the semi final and we had to get the bus back home? Or did you just watch it from your bedroom with your socks that were like stale pitta breads under your bed from all the wanking u were doing?  You wouldn’t celebrate us winning the league cup? Your a mug. You should go and support city but you’d probably be laughed off there because you think de Bruyne can’t spot a pass 

StevO was the one who brought city up. Let's see what your tone is like towards him... 

I turned down a ticket to the last final we got as I'd only been a few games since giving my season ticket up (to work weekends and then go University, was at university at the time I was offered the ticket to the final). I turned it down as it wouldn't be fair on a fan who's been every week. That's what type of fan I am, so can just go fuck the fuck off. 

As for De Bruyne I was raving about him before he was at city. Was gutted we never went in for him when he left Chelsea. 

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46 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

SteveO said he worked in Manchester like I did for fifteen years . He clearly posts that city are happy putting trophies regardless of what they are in the trophy room.

You asked about city's situation like I just brought it up. Where's the attitude for Steve. 

I went to uni and then worked in Manchester if that's necessary for me to comment on them??

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Actually, Aaron brought it up. 

 

12 hours ago, aaron said:

Go and ask Man City if it means nothing. It was the start of their trophy haul in the recent years.

Honestly cant believe I've read people turning their nose up at a meaningful trophy. Absolute disgrace that.

 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

For me the league cup is a prestigious trophy, and if managers treat it as a nothing trophy that’s not worth going out to win from the off, then in my eyes they are not only disrespecting the history of a top cup competition they are also disrespecting the supporters of the clubs they work for.

You and I are both older than the League Cup competition. If prestige comes with age, what happened in our case? :shakingfist:

My grandfather fought in WW-I, and my brother was researching his medals. Most are genuine, but one was given out after the war by one of the national newspapers (Daily Sketch, maybe?). Do you think that medal carries anywhere near as much respect as the others? The Caraboa Cup/League Cup is the Daily Sketch medal of trophies.

If others are satisfied with winning such silverware, then so be it. Personally, I want to see Everton become once again the best team in the land, and I don't want anything getting in the way of that. I won't be satisfied with anything less than the best - and surely that's the attitude we should have as fans. Scraps at the table might satisfy some, but we should be looking to feast year after year.

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4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Do you think that medal carries anywhere near as much respect as the others? The Caraboa Cup/League Cup is the Daily Sketch medal of trophies.

Yes I do think that medal carries respect. 

If you were a player or fan and you saw your team win the league cup you would be proud of the achievement, you wouldn’t be dismissing it as just scraps from the table, it even holds for the winner an automatic entry in to Europe so to give that it must hold merit as worthy competition , and as an Everton supporter I would be made up to go and see us pick this trophy up, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want success in other areas and the club to reach the heights of the best clubs in the world, why should taking part in the league cup make you become a team with less ambition than if you didn’t. 

In your argument you would say that of the two cup competitors that England enter the Euros and the world, we shouldn’t pay any respect to Euros that’s just scraps you should only try and win the World, because it means more. 

I’ve got to be honest with you Steve I’m truly saddened by your few of the league cup and what it means to the English game and I hope a massive majority of supporters in the country. 

Maybe Mike should hold a poll on whether our supporters  think it’s  a Mickey Mouse trophy that nobody wants or a trophy with credibility that we should want to win 

I also noticed you stated you were putting your neck on the line for calling it a Mickey Mouse cup or words to those effect, I must totally disagree with that statement you are using neck on the line to give your argument some worth, I would say you stuck your head over the wall and got it shot off which we all know is a stupid thing to do, for me that is a more relevant meaning to your argument. 

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I don’t think it would be forthcoming, winning the cup wouldn’t change Steve’s argument. Which personally I don’t agree with.

I acknowledge you are probably aware of this and are just poking fun but ....

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On 15/08/2019 at 11:35, aaron said:

Go and ask Man City if it means nothing. It was the start of their trophy haul in the recent years.

Honestly cant believe I've read people turning their nose up at a meaningful trophy. Absolute disgrace that.

Exactly. Even if you don’t think the competition itself is that important, it’s a trophy. Success breeds success and it could well be our catalyst, giving the players that taste of holding the trophy up infront of adoring fans at Wembley is a memory that they won’t forget and will want to experience again, hopefully in multiple competitions. 

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