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Spurs (Home) Sunday November 3rd

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Apparently VAR was right about the red card. Intent has been removed so it's a red if you cause an injury.

PGMOL Guidance on VAR calls

On Dele Alli's handball penalty incident: The VAR Anthony Taylor considered that both Alli and Mina were challenging for the ball in the air and Alli was under pressure from the attacker as the ball struck his hand. In his view it was not a clear and obvious error.

On Son Heung-min's red card: The red card, issued by the on-field referee, for Son was for endangering the safety of a player, which happened as a consequence of his initial challenge.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12040/11853597/jamie-carragher-why-ive-changed-my-mind-about-var?fbclid=IwAR3DCzbueA5gbcveF5-j3DLVOpF9bwqIbIuevm2HGxOz5LApUp9mKU6GjvY

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46 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Apparently VAR was right about the red card. Intent has been removed so it's a red if you cause an injury.

PGMOL Guidance on VAR calls

On Dele Alli's handball penalty incident: The VAR Anthony Taylor considered that both Alli and Mina were challenging for the ball in the air and Alli was under pressure from the attacker as the ball struck his hand. In his view it was not a clear and obvious error.

On Son Heung-min's red card: The red card, issued by the on-field referee, for Son was for endangering the safety of a player, which happened as a consequence of his initial challenge.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12040/11853597/jamie-carragher-why-ive-changed-my-mind-about-var?fbclid=IwAR3DCzbueA5gbcveF5-j3DLVOpF9bwqIbIuevm2HGxOz5LApUp9mKU6GjvY

The problem is that the Premier League have deliberately made the rules nebulous and open to interpretation. Our handball rule is different to that of the rest of the world. We have seen in Europe and international football that an accidental handball is still handball.

There has to be a cut off point where something becomes an infringement or else you get what we saw with Dele Alli and it is open to interpretation by the refs.

Putting my tin foil hat on for a minute I believe it is by design so that they can manipulate the rules to sway results in their favour.

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43 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

The problem is that the Premier League have deliberately made the rules nebulous and open to interpretation. Our handball rule is different to that of the rest of the world. We have seen in Europe and international football that an accidental handball is still handball.

There has to be a cut off point where something becomes an infringement or else you get what we saw with Dele Alli and it is open to interpretation by the refs.

Putting my tin foil hat on for a minute I believe it is by design so that they can manipulate the rules to sway results in their favour.

I can understand the handball argument, two players going for the ball would be harsh if you're pushed off balance and hand hits it. But I can't see how they've come to that conclusion with the Dele one, clear as day handball, his hand is in an unnatural position and it's not there because of him Mina knocking into him. 

The Keane one was a disgrace last week, exactly the same thing happened in the Liverpool game this weekend but Mane got booked for diving. How can they give polar opposite decisions for exactly the same situation? 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

Apparently VAR was right about the red card. Intent has been removed so it's a red if you cause an injury.

PGMOL Guidance on VAR calls

On Dele Alli's handball penalty incident: The VAR Anthony Taylor considered that both Alli and Mina were challenging for the ball in the air and Alli was under pressure from the attacker as the ball struck his hand. In his view it was not a clear and obvious error.

On Son Heung-min's red card: The red card, issued by the on-field referee, for Son was for endangering the safety of a player, which happened as a consequence of his initial challenge.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12040/11853597/jamie-carragher-why-ive-changed-my-mind-about-var?fbclid=IwAR3DCzbueA5gbcveF5-j3DLVOpF9bwqIbIuevm2HGxOz5LApUp9mKU6GjvY

I was shouting for a red card before it even became apparent that it was a terrible injury. Son had an angry head on after a previous encounter with Gomes and wasn't making that challenge to win the ball, the whole intent of it was to hurt Gomes and put a hit on him. Obviously he wasn't intending to for Gomes to get as hurt as he did but it blew up in his face big time. It was reckless and dangerous no matter the end result for me and the red card was absolutely the right decision.

While I'm on the subject it's pissing me off no end the amount of sympathy that little shit is getting in the media, and from our own fucking players! He purposely hurt our player for fucks sake.

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I'm even more angry about VAR now after the explanations. How is a ball hitting a player's hand above his head not a clear and obvious error yet Keane making innocuous contact with an opponent's foot last week was? And Where's the Richarlison trip? Sanchez knew he'd caught him, his reaction was 100% guilty, yet that's not even being discussed? The system is a fucking shambles, only the PL could make the miserable state of officiating in this sport worse by introducing technology. 

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I just can’t get my head around the near universal sympathy for poor old Son from the pundits/ media . He will be playing again by December but he may well have ended Gomes’ career

He may not have intended to do the damage he did but it’s 100% a retaliatory and reckless shithouse challenge, he was absolutely nowhere near the ball and the reason he was crying is because he knows exactly what he did

It was incredulous that Twatkinson pulled out a yellow initially and now I’ve seen it on TV it has just confirmed that it can’t possibly have warranted anything other than a red card 

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Out of the blue a mate has sent me a close up picture of the Gomes injury taken from a treatment room. I didn’t want to look but I couldn’t help it. It doesn’t look like a break as such but like his entire foot is dislocated and completely out of joint. I guess that means all the ligaments are gone. If that’s the case can they all be fixed? Has there been any news from the club today as to the extent of the injury? Totally devastated for him. Got a Portuguese mate who is going to translate a letter of best wishes that I’ve written for him. 

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20 hours ago, Gwlad all over said:

How long does it take to decide clear and obvious? Was never going to go our way.

Took longer with Keane/Brighton and they gave it. VAR is beyond comical. It is ruining the sport.

American sports have embraced replay and no doubt it has a few flaws but nothing even remotely close to this. If you're going to allow VAR to dictate judgement calls the match official is the only one who should be allowed to make a decision. PERIOD. Send him to the midline and let him see the video three times - that's all it should take for 'clear and obvious'. Decision made after that. We're back to playing within 2 minutes every time. 

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8 minutes ago, AlbanyNYToffee said:

Took longer with Keane/Brighton and they gave it. VAR is beyond comical. It is ruining the sport.

American sports have embraced replay and no doubt it has a few flaws but nothing even remotely close to this. If you're going to allow VAR to dictate judgement calls the match official is the only one who should be allowed to make a decision. PERIOD. Send him to the midline and let him see the video three times - that's all it should take for 'clear and obvious'. Decision made after that. We're back to playing within 2 minutes every time. 

P.S. VAR was not a topic of conversation at the biggest event in the world. If FIFA, the most corrupt organization in sports, can figure out VAR the PL better get their shit together.  

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5 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

I just can’t get my head around the near universal sympathy for poor old Son from the pundits/ media . He will be playing again by December but he may well have ended Gomes’ career

He may not have intended to do the damage he did but it’s 100% a retaliatory and reckless shithouse challenge, he was absolutely nowhere near the ball and the reason he was crying is because he knows exactly what he did

It was incredulous that Twatkinson pulled out a yellow initially and now I’ve seen it on TV it has just confirmed that it can’t possibly have warranted anything other than a red card 

It should be bleeding obvious. Spurs are in LONDON!!!

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The manager needs to get it into his head asap and then get it through to his players that EVERTON ARE NOT MEDIA DARLINGS.  We are a thorn in the side for a lot of the more fashionable clubs and there are people in London that have bottles of champagne tucked away should we ever get relegated.

If that happened we would end up like Leeds. Just a breeding factory for young players that the top teams can snaffle up on the cheap.

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On 03/11/2019 at 21:50, MikeO said:

You can also hear what they're saying, not sure about in the ground but certainly on TV and you can also hear what the ref is saying to the players; much clearer system.

This is what makes it work in rugby. You hear a conversation between the ref, linesman and video ref who all watch the replay on the big screen with the fans. Fans can also buy ear pieces (at least in internationals) where they can listen to what the ref is saying. You can also hear the ref all game, giving instructions about the decisions he makes and the warnIngs he gives to players. It is open, transparent and whilst the rules are still open to interpretation, there is reasoning given there and then as well as a collective decision. 

The FA seem very determined to do the opposite. They almost want to stop the refs providing an explanation so that they can scurry away after the game and provide a report to fit what happened. In the Alli example, if the decision posted was true, it didn't even matter if he handballed it if the interpretation was that he got a shove so why watch the ball hitting his hand over and over again. Why not have a conversation with the ref using the monitor and say this is what I see and think, what about you guys on the ground? 

They have made something so simple and straightforward so much more complicated. I fail to understand how you can't score a goal because the ball brushes against the arm but then you can have your arm flailing above your head in an unnatural position and it be deemed not to be a penalty. It's madness and it shows how inept both the FA and the referees in this country actually are.

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I actually have some sympathy for referees (most of the time) because they're put into an impossible position and are always going to make mistakes.

It's the FA that shoulders 90% of the blame for all this. This tool should've helped reduce the pressure on the referee and empower them, giving them confidence and help them learn from their mistakes. Getting the chance to overturn a decision when he has the chance to review would be much more positive and be a much more valuable tactic in the whole "respect" program that the FA has been trying to implement for years. Respect is earned; admitting you've gotten something wrong goes a long way to gaining respect, rather than having some parental figure not even present making a decision for you in a misjudged attempt at protecting. But all this is completely unsurprising when you read the Respect project brochure and look at the FA in general - business first, then the game, then the people involved (maybe). It's so full of corporate project management nonsense and catchphrases that it's made itself completely irrelevant where it should actually count!

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Another point I’ve made @Matt is why doesn’t the PL buy the best refs in the world?  Instead we get Jim the gym teacher moonlighting as a ref on weekends.  They buy the best foreign talent, they should do the same with refs.  That would really show the rest of the leagues and the world how serious they are.

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6 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Another point I’ve made @Matt is why doesn’t the PL buy the best refs in the world?  Instead we get Jim the gym teacher moonlighting as a ref on weekends.  They buy the best foreign talent, they should do the same with refs.  That would really show the rest of the leagues and the world how serious they are.

I assume there’s different qualifications per league, even if the job is fundamentally the same. Anyway, I don’t think it would help. All refs make mistakes, they’re just not supported enough. The FA makes gestures of support and protection but it’s mostly so they cover their asses, ticking a box in an audit by saying “we put up a poster saying respect, we’ve done our part”. They, and probably the league(s) organisers are the fundamental root cause of the issues, buying “the best” (like players, brilliant in one league who then can’t adapt) is like putting tits on a fish; may be something that’s a bit nicer to look at but fundamentally useless. 

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11 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Another point I’ve made @Matt is why doesn’t the PL buy the best refs in the world?  Instead we get Jim the gym teacher moonlighting as a ref on weekends.  They buy the best foreign talent, they should do the same with refs.  That would really show the rest of the leagues and the world how serious they are.

No we don't.

"At the top end, Premier League referees are salaried so they get paid a regular wage with match fees on top of that. Referees in the top-flight of England can earn as much as £70,000 per year. They are paid a basic yearly retainer of between £38,500 and £42,000 based on experience, and then are paid £1,150 per match on top of that."

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/how-much-premier-league-referees-paid-wages-salary/14pjnss8mq3au1dmbi2acqhav0

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

No we don't.

"At the top end, Premier League referees are salaried so they get paid a regular wage with match fees on top of that. Referees in the top-flight of England can earn as much as £70,000 per year. They are paid a basic yearly retainer of between £38,500 and £42,000 based on experience, and then are paid £1,150 per match on top of that."

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/how-much-premier-league-referees-paid-wages-salary/14pjnss8mq3au1dmbi2acqhav0

in the US 38k is the federal poverty line if you have a family.  is it substantial in the uk?  70k is the max, which is middle class over here.  not exactly sharing the profits are they.  you pay them 2 or 3 times that but let them know there is promotion/relegation and will be competition from foreign talent all of a sudden these people are taking this shit deadly serious, unlike now.  atkinson should be ref'ing league one.

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10 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

in the US 38k is the federal poverty line if you have a family.  is it substantial in the uk?  70k is the max, which is middle class over here.  not exactly sharing the profits are they.  you pay them 2 or 3 times that but let them know there is promotion/relegation and will be competition from foreign talent all of a sudden these people are taking this shit deadly serious, unlike now.  atkinson should be ref'ing league one.

You need to account for 2 things; exchange rate and cost of living (a massive point when comparing US vs other major economies). health care as an example is basically free, whereas in the US and Switzerland it’s stupid money for basic services (about 15% of my salary a month. My in-laws are paying close to 20% in the US and it’s only getting more expensive as they get older, causing all sorts of financial problems because of Obamacare (which I agree with in principal but it’s been very poorly implemented))
 

Anyway... If I got a pro referees wage I’d be made up based on job market and living costs, if I moved back. Assuming they ref 20 games a season, that’s 76kUSD a year. If you assume 50 (ie every league game and 12 cup games), that’s potentially 115kUSD a year with having a big off season/vacation. I’d never take it though because of the stress factor. 
 

it wasn’t that long ago that they got buttons as a wage though. As I said before, I have sympathy for the refs most of the time; they’re in the spotlight and take all the flack, deflecting from the cause of most of the issues. I’ve experienced this in the business world in previous jobs and you’re basically a patsy 

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3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

in the US 38k is the federal poverty line if you have a family.  is it substantial in the uk?  70k is the max, which is middle class over here.  not exactly sharing the profits are they.  you pay them 2 or 3 times that but let them know there is promotion/relegation and will be competition from foreign talent all of a sudden these people are taking this shit deadly serious, unlike now.  atkinson should be ref'ing league one.

Some good points there, incentives to make you better and want to stay at the top, but also more axing for those who don’t perform. 

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8 hours ago, Palfy said:

Some good points there, incentives to make you better and want to stay at the top, but also more axing for those who don’t perform. 

yeah matt proved the money is fine.  then make some consequences.  send the shite ones back to the championship and promote ones from the championship or league one that are doing well to premier league.  it won't happen.  they want the ones they have because the FA and top clubs can control them and give them the results they want.  it's bullshit.

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12 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

yeah matt proved the money is fine.  then make some consequences.  send the shite ones back to the championship and promote ones from the championship or league one that are doing well to premier league.  it won't happen.  they want the ones they have because the FA and top clubs can control them and give them the results they want.  it's bullshit.

They do get demoted to lower leagues or pulled I believe 

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