James Rodríguez

[Sibdane]

Have to agree with Bailey. Normally, I hate taking players on loan because if they perform well for us there is every chance that they move on to another club. 

But given the wages we have and the duds (most of the time going hand-in-hand), we need to approach this one a little more cautiously than normal. 

[barryj]

2 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Have to agree with Bailey. Normally, I hate taking players on loan because if they perform well for us there is every chance that they move on to another club. 

But given the wages we have and the duds (most of the time going hand-in-hand), we need to approach this one a little more cautiously than normal. 

I’d rather seen him come in as a transfer rather than loan. The club are trying to balance the books eg. Keane transfer extension which apparently reduces annual costs as the value is amortised over the new 5 year contract and player sales are needed (Besic muted recently). I agree it’s a gamble either way but if the reported wages are correct then it’ll be better to buy. If he has a cracking season on loan (which we all want) then it’ll be hard to keep him and we’ll get no money and effectively we are back to square one and more uncertainty. If he plays badly there maybe a loss but I’m sure they’ll be some suitors. We got Carlo in for a reason and he knows him better than anyone else at the club. We surely have to trust his judgement. A team finishing bottom half of the Premier League won’t get the chance to sign this calibre of player Very often if at all so we need to roll the die. I think this would be more of a calculated risk than others we’ve completed but I understand the trepidation of some. 

[SpartyBlue]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

You say other teams don't want to take the chance on him but he has gone from club to club and they haven't taken up the option. There are clearly enough doubts about him otherwise he would have signed for one of them.

I'm not saying he won't be courted by them but having a good season for us isn't suddenly going to alert the rest of the world. The rest of the world are very aware and I have no doubt some of them have made enquiries about him. 

I think people underestimate how much money this fella will be on. If we get this wrong and we have a crock or dud on our hands for three seasons we will be significantly hampered in what we can do in the following seasons. I am personally not comfortable with that. He is clearly far superior to the likes of Gylfi, Sandrao etc etc but these players have sucked us dry and we need to move away from that. Its one thing getting a player in his prime, playing at the top of his ability but its another taking a punt on someone who hasn't played a full season for however long. 

Again, I think you’re being generous if you believe that James Rodríguez can have a very good season in the premier league and won’t have clubs higher up the table bidding for his services, particularly on a free. Everyone has some valid concerns about him but a healthy campaign will go a long way in addressing that. If I’m James, I want a loan to a good club where I’m guaranteed games and am familiar with the manager and can prove to everyone I’m still a world class talent. 12 months can make a huge difference at this stage of his career. 

[Bailey]

12 minutes ago, barryj said:

I’d rather seen him come in as a transfer rather than loan. The club are trying to balance the books eg. Keane transfer extension which apparently reduces annual costs as the value is amortised over the new 5 year contract and player sales are needed (Besic muted recently). I agree it’s a gamble either way but if the reported wages are correct then it’ll be better to buy. If he has a cracking season on loan (which we all want) then it’ll be hard to keep him and we’ll get no money and effectively we are back to square one and more uncertainty. If he plays badly there maybe a loss but I’m sure they’ll be some suitors. We got Carlo in for a reason and he knows him better than anyone else at the club. We surely have to trust his judgement. A team finishing bottom half of the Premier League won’t get the chance to sign this calibre of player Very often if at all so we need to roll the die. I think this would be more of a calculated risk than others we’ve completed but I understand the trepidation of some. 

I'm not sure if your financial review is correct. I dont know for certain myself so it may well be but I will explain what I think and hopefully someone can confirm.

Signing him permanently won't change the appearance on the books. If he signs on loan we will only be partly paying his wages but for ease I will assume they are the same as if he did sign, say £150k pw. I will also assume he signs for £10mil which may or may not be correct but it sounds reasonable. I would also expect his sign on fee to be similar. It would be naive to think it would be a lot more if the contract ran down given he is on his last year. I have no idea how much that would be mind you.

He joins on loan. Our books show £7.8mil wage expenditure for one year. Given he is on loan its unlikely he will have any individual bonuses but he may get a share of the team bonus. 

If he signs and our books show £7.8 mil wage expenditure, £3.33mil per year (assuming 3 year deal) for the signing fee, plus bonuses. If he then stays after this contract period he goes back to just the wages. 

We know from our financial results that we are making fairly hefty losses. We essentially need to make enough profit on sales to cover our already spiralling wage costs.

If you add a £10+ mil to that per year and that player doesn't do the business, its a big problem. Madrid couldn't shift him, so I'm not sure we will especially when he is another year older.

If he comes in and does really well then great but, even his biggest fans must have some doubts about that. Its not really a question of his ability, its whether he will be able to show it enough. 

I completely get why people want him here, but I have significant reservations about bringing anyone like this in on several year contract. 

[Hafnia]

3 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I'm not sure if your financial review is correct. I dont know for certain myself so it may well be but I will explain what I think and hopefully someone can confirm.

Signing him permanently won't change the appearance on the books. If he signs on loan we will only be partly paying his wages but for ease I will assume they are the same as if he did sign, say £150k pw. I will also assume he signs for £10mil which may or may not be correct but it sounds reasonable. I would also expect his sign on fee to be similar. It would be naive to think it would be a lot more if the contract ran down given he is on his last year. I have no idea how much that would be mind you.

He joins on loan. Our books show £7.8mil wage expenditure for one year. Given he is on loan its unlikely he will have any individual bonuses but he may get a share of the team bonus. 

If he signs and our books show £7.8 mil wage expenditure, £3.33mil per year (assuming 3 year deal) for the signing fee, plus bonuses. If he then stays after this contract period he goes back to just the wages. 

We know from our financial results that we are making fairly hefty losses. We essentially need to make enough profit on sales to cover our already spiralling wage costs.

If you add a £10+ mil to that per year and that player doesn't do the business, its a big problem. Madrid couldn't shift him, so I'm not sure we will especially when he is another year older.

If he comes in and does really well then great but, even his biggest fans must have some doubts about that. Its not really a question of his ability, its whether he will be able to show it enough. 

I completely get why people want him here, but I have significant reservations about bringing anyone like this in on several year contract. 

I have reservations on having players like niasse, Schneiderlein, walcott, tosun, Sandro etc earning s fortune despite having no quality or desire to do well.

James is a certified quality player who will increase our exposure and the risk is very low. 

[Bailey]

15 minutes ago, SpartyBlue said:

Again, I think you’re being generous if you believe that James Rodríguez can have a very good season in the premier league and won’t have clubs higher up the table bidding for his services, particularly on a free. Everyone has some valid concerns about him but a healthy campaign will go a long way in addressing that. If I’m James, I want a loan to a good club where I’m guaranteed games and am familiar with the manager and can prove to everyone I’m still a world class talent. 12 months can make a huge difference at this stage of his career. 

That isn't what I have said. I think you are being naive if you think other clubs aren't sniffing around him now. Not even big clubs but clubs that are in Europe. One of the big differences is that we can afford him, or at least appear to be able to, whereas a lot of other clubs can't (in Europe as opposed to the Premier League). 

He could go to a lot of other sides and prove his fitness. The question is why does he want to do that here? That answer will be the same in 12 months regardless of the suitors. 

 

[Bailey]

3 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I have reservations on having players like niasse, Schneiderlein, walcott, tosun, Sandro etc earning s fortune despite having no quality or desire to do well.

James is a certified quality player who will increase our exposure and the risk is very low. 

How is the risk very low on a 3 year contract?

[Hafnia]

Just now, Bailey said:

How is the risk very low on a 3 year contract?

For one he is taking a significant pay cut - Bernard level wages.

2. He improves us immensely

3. Injuries are insured

4. Commercial value is huge

5. He increases appeal to other players to come and others like Richalison to retain

 

[Bailey]

1 minute ago, Hafnia said:

For one he is taking a significant pay cut - Bernard level wages.

2. He improves us immensely

3. Injuries are insured

4. Commercial value is huge

5. He increases appeal to other players to come and others like Richalison to retain

 

1. You don't know what he is on. 

2. He only improves us if he plays.

3. Which insurance company insures regularly injured players? The premiums will either be through the roof of they will be going bust insuring Everton players!

4. Agreed, but only if he plays enough over the course of 3 years.

5. Maybe, maybe not. 

The risk with Rodriguez is that despite playing for sides that will play 40 plus times a season, he has only played the equivalent of 29 x 90 minutes in one season, the rest have been 20 games, 18 games and 8 games. The last two are his last two seasons. 

In the last two seasons he has had cruciate and medial ligament injuries. In each of the last 4 seasons he has missed games with calf problems, a notoriously recurring injury. 

This is the definition of a high risk, high reward transfer in my opinion.

[SpartyBlue]

8 minutes ago, Bailey said:

That isn't what I have said. I think you are being naive if you think other clubs aren't sniffing around him now. Not even big clubs but clubs that are in Europe. One of the big differences is that we can afford him, or at least appear to be able to, whereas a lot of other clubs can't (in Europe as opposed to the Premier League). 

He could go to a lot of other sides and prove his fitness. The question is why does he want to do that here? That answer will be the same in 12 months regardless of the suitors. 

 

You’re not acknowledging the effect a good season here would have on his prospects. His wages/injuries are a concern that is certainly keeping some of the prestigious clubs from taking a chance. If he can quiet some of that talk then he will have more serious suitors, especially because he will be on a free. 
 

All this is to say that if we are going to take the plunge I think a transfer is best as our chances of signing him after a productive season would be uncertain at best. Chance worth taking.

 

 

[Shukes]

I’m agreeing with Haf and Sparta on this one. 
We should be a football team first and foremost, business come second for me as a fan. That’s what a board is for, they can worry about that and are far more qualified than me.

Pienaar was a player that no one really wanted, loan and buy was a good option.

James is a player that everyone is looking at, but worried about his levels. If they see him perform... he leaves. 
Lock him down and make sure if he does go, we get a good price for him. 
 

Funny, but usually our fans have business heads on them on this forum... but suddenly they have turned to mush!

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

For one he is taking a significant pay cut - Bernard level wages.

2. He improves us immensely

3. Injuries are insured

4. Commercial value is huge

5. He increases appeal to other players to come and others like Richalison to retain

 

If he signs permanently isn’t he considered an asset too financially?

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, SpartyBlue said:

You’re not acknowledging the effect a good season here would have on his prospects. His wages/injuries are a concern that is certainly keeping some of the prestigious clubs from taking a chance. If he can quiet some of that talk then he will have more serious suitors, especially because he will be on a free. 
 

All this is to say that if we are going to take the plunge I think a transfer is best as our chances of signing him after a productive season would be uncertain at best. Chance worth taking.

 

 

I do acknowledge that and I'm not saying he won't have more suitors than he has now, but at the same time, he will still have plenty of suitors now as well. 

Maybe it is a chance worth taking because if he plays regularly we are surely only going to go one way. That doesn't stop it being a big risk though!

 

[Palfy]

17 minutes ago, Matt said:

If he signs permanently isn’t he considered an asset too financially?

Surly that depends on how he performs, the facts are he’s had some serious injuries, and he hasn’t had a decent season for 3-4 years, either way there are risks but a year loan would seem a lesser risk than a 3-4 year deal on a player that may breakdown and not live up to his billing. 
Lukaku signed after a good loan spell why wouldn’t he, if he has a good loan season because of the manager who he respects play’s to his strengths and the team is improving, I would expect him to want to stay, same as Gomes sometimes enjoying your football and feeling wanted out ways going to a bigger team and sitting on the bench. 

[StevO]

16 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Surly that depends on how he performs, the facts are he’s had some serious injuries, and he hasn’t had a decent season for 3-4 years, either way there are risks but a year loan would seem a lesser risk than a 3-4 year deal on a player that may breakdown and not live up to his billing. 
Lukaku signed after a good loan spell why wouldn’t he, if he has a good loan season because of the manager who he respects play’s to his strengths and the team is improving, I would expect him to want to stay, same as Gomes sometimes enjoying your football and feeling wanted out ways going to a bigger team and sitting on the bench. 

It doesn’t depend how he performs. It depends on the length of the first contract. He is an asset for that length. 

The rest of it; I just want to see him score some of them worldies we’ve all seen him do before. 

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, StevO said:

It doesn’t depend how he performs. It depends on the length of the first contract. He is an asset for that length. 

The rest of it; I just want to see him score some of them worldies we’ve all seen him do before. 

We’ve been here before on what is an asset and what isn’t so I don’t want to go over that again, Sandro Tosun and Bolasie have proven to be great assets to the team.

Not being a shareholder of any note I’m more concerned with players being an asset to the team, than being  an asset in figures on a set of accounts. 
And yes I want to see him come here and be the player we know he can be, I just feel that a loan would be a more sensible approach when dealing with a player who has struggled with bad injuries and struggled to cement a place in the first team.  

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

If he signs permanently isn’t he considered an asset too financially?

Yep.  We could get 2 years and a club like PSG could offer £30m.  They bought Hana for that much at 30

[SpartyBlue]

9 minutes ago, Palfy said:

We’ve been here before on what is an asset and what isn’t so I don’t want to go over that again, Sandro Tosun and Bolasie have proven to be great assets to the team.

Not being a shareholder of any note I’m more concerned with players being an asset to the team, than being  an asset in figures on a set of accounts. 
And yes I want to see him come here and be the player we know he can be, I just feel that a loan would be a more sensible approach when dealing with a player who has struggled with bad injuries and struggled to cement a place in the first team.  

I’d agree if I was confident we could sign him after a productive season but I’m not sure how realistic that is. We are a mid table club at the moment without European football. A chance for a club at our current level to sign a player with the talent of a James Rodríguez is extremely rare and only possible because of the Carlo connection. The upside of signing him to a permanent contract is so high (on the pitch, commercially, in how we are perceived) that I think the risk is small by comparison. It would be pretty brutal for him to come for a year only to lose him in the summer when we had the option to sign him longterm. 

[RuffRob]

If Rodriquez didn't have some risk attached to him, then we wouldn't be getting a look in on signing a player of this quality. Unfortunately, that's the painful truth of where we are as a club. Its not often things align when we actually get the chance to make a signing of this calibre. We have to take some calculated risks. 

I am working on the assumption that he might be available to play 50% of our games given his injury record - I would take that now. He is a country mile better than any player we have on our wings at the moment. 

When oppertunity knocks - sometimes you just have to take it. 

[Palfy]

3 minutes ago, SpartyBlue said:

It would be pretty brutal for him to come for a year only to lose him in the summer when we had the option to sign him longterm. 

It would but I believe unlikely, Gomes had great loan season with us and still signed even though bigger clubs tried to muscle in based on the season he just had. 
Rodríguez would also have the Ancelotti factor in his decision to stay, either way we need to get him and I won’t be disappointed if it’s a 3 year deal or a year loan, I would just prefer the loan based on his injuries history. 

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

We have to take some calculated risks.

Wouldn’t a loan be more of a calculated risk, based on the use of the terminology calculated. 

[badaids]

Oh - he’s 29, thought he was only 25 or 26. I’d deffo be on for the loan. Has it’s risks too, but if it goes wrong don’t want a 30 year old crock on insane wages.

Really excites by the idea but shitting it that it will go horribly wrong AGAIN.

[Aidan]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

he hasn’t had a decent season for 3-4 years

He hasn't completed a fair amount of games in a few seasons, but his return in the games he has played has been nothing short of world class. 

18/19 - 10 combined g/a in 12.7 minutes worth of games. 

17/18 - 18 combined g/a in 18.1 minutes worth of games. 

16/17 - 14 combined g/a in 13.1 minutes worth of games. 

All those stats are league games only. 

His injury record is worrying but i dont know how much being in a team with quality players like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich effect him earning his place back in the starting XI. 

[SpartyBlue]

58 minutes ago, Palfy said:

It would but I believe unlikely, Gomes had great loan season with us and still signed even though bigger clubs tried to muscle in based on the season he just had. 
Rodríguez would also have the Ancelotti factor in his decision to stay, either way we need to get him and I won’t be disappointed if it’s a 3 year deal or a year loan, I would just prefer the loan based on his injuries history. 

I hear ya but I think there is a pretty large gap in perception between Gomes and James Rodríguez if he’s coming off a productive season. He’s been a household name in football for 6-7 years. I’m sympathetic to the thought that we don’t want to be paying him big wages if he’s injured but this is just such a unique opportunity. Let’s be honest, if we didn’t have Carlo and if James didn’t have an injury history we’d never have a chance to sign him. 

It’s also hard to put a price on how future signings will look at us if we can get him here. Ancelotti, Richarlison, Rodriguez..new stadium on the horizon..we start to look pretty attractive and like we’ve got something going. Forgive my Yankee-ness but this reminds me of what happened with the baseball team I support many years ago. We were not a sexy destination and were struggling to be a winner. Somehow we managed to sign a Hall of Fame player towards the middle/back half of his career. That signing made us more attractive to other players and ushered in many years of success. Even the chance that James Rodríguez in an Everton shirt can spur that same sort of reaction is worth the risk, for me.

[Palfy]

26 minutes ago, SpartyBlue said:

I hear ya but I think there is a pretty large gap in perception between Gomes and James Rodríguez if he’s coming off a productive season. He’s been a household name in football for 6-7 years. I’m sympathetic to the thought that we don’t want to be paying him big wages if he’s injured but this is just such a unique opportunity. Let’s be honest, if we didn’t have Carlo and if James didn’t have an injury history we’d never have a chance to sign him. 

It’s also hard to put a price on how future signings will look at us if we can get him here. Ancelotti, Richarlison, Rodriguez..new stadium on the horizon..we start to look pretty attractive and like we’ve got something going. Forgive my Yankee-ness but this reminds me of what happened with the baseball team I support many years ago. We were not a sexy destination and were struggling to be a winner. Somehow we managed to sign a Hall of Fame player towards the middle/back half of his career. That signing made us more attractive to other players and ushered in many years of success. Even the chance that James Rodríguez in an Everton shirt can spur that same sort of reaction is worth the risk, for me.

You make a good case and I wouldn’t argue with you, it will be a fantastic opportunity for us to get him in any capacity, so will be interesting to see how this plays out. And as I have said I won’t be disappointed if it’s 3 years or 1 year loan, just having my cake and eating it. 

[barryj]

5 hours ago, Bailey said:

I'm not sure if your financial review is correct. I dont know for certain myself so it may well be but I will explain what I think and hopefully someone can confirm.

Signing him permanently won't change the appearance on the books. If he signs on loan we will only be partly paying his wages but for ease I will assume they are the same as if he did sign, say £150k pw. I will also assume he signs for £10mil which may or may not be correct but it sounds reasonable. I would also expect his sign on fee to be similar. It would be naive to think it would be a lot more if the contract ran down given he is on his last year. I have no idea how much that would be mind you.

He joins on loan. Our books show £7.8mil wage expenditure for one year. Given he is on loan its unlikely he will have any individual bonuses but he may get a share of the team bonus. 

If he signs and our books show £7.8 mil wage expenditure, £3.33mil per year (assuming 3 year deal) for the signing fee, plus bonuses. If he then stays after this contract period he goes back to just the wages. 

We know from our financial results that we are making fairly hefty losses. We essentially need to make enough profit on sales to cover our already spiralling wage costs.

If you add a £10+ mil to that per year and that player doesn't do the business, its a big problem. Madrid couldn't shift him, so I'm not sure we will especially when he is another year older.

If he comes in and does really well then great but, even his biggest fans must have some doubts about that. Its not really a question of his ability, its whether he will be able to show it enough. 

I completely get why people want him here, but I have significant reservations about bringing anyone like this in on several year contract. 

Bailey I didn’t mention anything financial at all specific to a potential deal with James. I only mentioned that Everton are trying to balance the books to allow us to buy (& loan) in the transfer market now. Which includes James, Allan, Doucoure etc 

[barryj]

2 hours ago, RuffRob said:

If Rodriquez didn't have some risk attached to him, then we wouldn't be getting a look in on signing a player of this quality. Unfortunately, that's the painful truth of where we are as a club. Its not often things align when we actually get the chance to make a signing of this calibre. We have to take some calculated risks. 

I am working on the assumption that he might be available to play 50% of our games given his injury record - I would take that now. He is a country mile better than any player we have on our wings at the moment. 

When oppertunity knocks - sometimes you just have to take it. 

If we get him I’m sure he’ll play more than Gbamin! So no transfer is risk free. 
 

What he had got is a huge social media presence. I read somewhere he’s the 4th most followed current footballers worldwide. Seems a little high but either way it high. If Everton can use this well to market us that must surely increase revenue. 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, Aidan said:

He hasn't completed a fair amount of games in a few seasons, but his return in the games he has played has been nothing short of world class. 

18/19 - 10 combined g/a in 12.7 minutes worth of games. 

17/18 - 18 combined g/a in 18.1 minutes worth of games. 

16/17 - 14 combined g/a in 13.1 minutes worth of games. 

All those stats are league games only. 

His injury record is worrying but i dont know how much being in a team with quality players like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich effect him earning his place back in the starting XI. 

The one pinch of salt with this is how he then translates those stats in playing for Everton. Its all well and good creating and scoring bucket loads in a team full of stars but its a different kettle of fish when you have Gomes or Davies misplacing a 10 yard pass in your general direction! 

I'm not comparing him to Iwobi, but Iwobi was hitting great numbers at Arsenal and ermm.. well you know the rest. 

18 minutes ago, barryj said:

Bailey I didn’t mention anything financial at all specific to a potential deal with James. I only mentioned that Everton are trying to balance the books to allow us to buy (& loan) in the transfer market now. Which includes James, Allan, Doucoure etc 

Apologies if I misunderstood but as you went on to talk about the Keane deal afterwards I thought you were thinking along similar lines with Rodríguez.

[Bailey]

Just as a general point on Rodríguez, it could go either way. He could sign on loan, play every game be a standout and then sign elsewhere at the end of the season. Or he could sign a 3 year deal and play a dozen games across the first 2 seasons.

None of us know how it will go but isn't it great to be talking about a player of his quality in that way! 

[Hafnia]

8 hours ago, Bailey said:

Just as a general point on Rodríguez, it could go either way. He could sign on loan, play every game be a standout and then sign elsewhere at the end of the season. Or he could sign a 3 year deal and play a dozen games across the first 2 seasons.

None of us know how it will go but isn't it great to be talking about a player of his quality in that way! 

There are no guarantees in football.  He has come here specifically to play for ancellotti - a player of his calibre does not sign for Everton in our current team status.  In fact not many players would want to play for us.

If he has a great season, I see him signing. Why go elsewhere?