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markjazzbassist

Newcastle (Home) Tuesday January 21st

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1 minute ago, plaidharper said:

In retrospect, what was up with those subs?

Putting Niasse on meant there was absolutely no outlet. Calvert Lewin was on a yellow and couldn't put himself about as they were looking to get him sent off. Niasse can do literally nothing but fall on his ass.

Davies is really having a poor run of form. Most definitely needs a loan spell to get some meaningful game time and hopefully grow a little bit.

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Just now, markjazzbassist said:

what would you have done differently?

Maybe not take off out two best performing players? 

As soon as he took Kean off I raised an eyebrow, then when he took Bernard off it was just utter confusion. 

We shouldn't have fucked it the way we did, but those subs he made were awful and it could have been a different story if they'd have stayed on. 

When Kean had space he was unplayable, why take him off as soon as he's obviously going to get space? More to the point why the fuck didnt Walcott make way instead? 

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Just now, Aidan said:

Maybe not take off out two best performing players? 

As soon as he took Kean off I raised an eyebrow, then when he took Bernard off it was just utter confusion. 

We shouldn't have fucked it the way we did, but those subs he made were awful and it could have been a different story if they'd have stayed on. 

When Kean had space he was unplayable, why take him off as soon as he's obviously going to get space? More to the point why the fuck didnt Walcott make way instead? 

 

Just now, plaidharper said:

attacking was working.  why make more defensive and some useless subs? 

 

tell me who you would sub?  i can't stand people who bitch about changing something but offer no alternative.  who would you brought off and when and for whom?

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1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

what would you have done differently?

Keep players on that can hold the ball and keep pressure off us. 
I agree. I always think bringing forwards off for defenders takes the pressure off the opposing team and invites pressure into you.

Niasse can’t really be classed as a forward either, most don’t class him as a player 😉

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1 minute ago, Shukes said:

Keep players on that can hold the ball and keep pressure off us. 
I agree. I always think bringing forwards off for defenders takes the pressure off the opposing team and invites pressure into you.

Niasse can’t really be classed as a forward either, most don’t class him as a player 😉

Also you do not always have to use all three subs.  What just happened?!?

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we have no offensive players they are all injured.  we have a body (niasse) and a kid (gordon).  we literally have no attacking players other than that.  iwobi and richarlison are hurt, tosun is gone.

 

again for all the sub masters who would you have subbed and when and for whom? it's the same old thinking you know better without offering an alternative.  monday morning quarterback

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Just now, markjazzbassist said:

we no offensive players they are all injured.  we have a body (niasse) and a kid (gordon).  we literally have no attacking players.  iwobi and richarlison are hurt, tosun is gone.

Don’t sub them then. There’s no rule that you have to make subs. And Kean looked like he wanted to stay on, didn’t looked gassed or anything.

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Just now, Finn balor said:

What when we were two nil up at ninety one minutes? Maybe those subs contributed. I don’t get your post

You know exactly what I mean and all three subs were not at 91'

Also give me an example of said contribution...

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1 minute ago, Newty82 said:

Right. Before anything else...before Newcastle even scored I was going to write this.

And I've said this after other games and in other threads. This tactic of taking attacking players off for defensive players when we are on top in games - why?! Each time we've done it, we end up sitting deeper and deeper. We limit our options to the point where all we can do is pass it around the back.

Today. First Kean off for Coleman. Defensive. Then Bernard off for Davies. Defensive. The Walcott off for Niasse. Why?!!!

I don't like it. Absolutely fuming. Newcastle had absolutely no right to a single point in this game. Fuck all. Fuming. 2 points thrown away just like that.

I'm not having that these defensive subs aren't getting us into trouble.

Before the above...it was pretty much perfect. Everything was there other than more goals for us. Great performance.

The only defence I can give for these backward subs is that the players are knackered, maybe because training is intense to get the message into them, how to play etc. Because our play is improving, there's some real pleasing elements there. But....fuckin hell...when will we see the end of these throw away games?

We will see the end when these players are gone. I was disappointed with Digne at the end. Free kick was truly awful, under no pressure to get us back in the game but he blasted it over the bar, then he was fucking around at OUR corner flag instead of just knocking it up the line. Davies was utterly brain dead with that too.

We lack physicality in midfield. Nobody can receive the ball and turn with it under pressure. Only Kean was really doing it tonight and Bernard via his skill.

Subs were poor and shows how bad our squad is that we bring Niasse on.

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bernard can't play a full 90 he's coming off injury and never plays a full 90.  kean hasn't played a full 90 either and previous games was gassed.  i don't think davies coleman and niasse are the answers, but i don't think keeping tired players is either.  

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5 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

 

tell me who you would sub?  i can't stand people who bitch about changing something but offer no alternative.  who would you brought off and when and for whom?

It's not a rule that you have to make subs. It's not obligatory.

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13 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

 

tell me who you would sub?  i can't stand people who bitch about changing something but offer no alternative.  who would you brought off and when and for whom?

Why do we feel obliged to make a change ? It was working. However, I've offered an alternative if you feast your eyes on my post the answer your question is Walcott, should have been the first one off. 

Kean was our biggest threat on the counter and was getting us up the pitch. Bernard was our creative spark. Davies came on and didn't settle into the game what so ever, had no pace or strength to see out the game, Bernard and Kean would have been better defensive options already on the pitch with the work rate and tenacity. 

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Well on the bright side if we'd held on we'd have been a point behind Sheff Utd and everyone would have been talking about Europe. We are nowhere near being ready for a a European campaign next season. 

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The level of incompetence on show tonight is utterly staggering. Jordan Pickford completely unable to kill the game and command his area has cost us two points, utterly dismal at being a presence and shitting the bed twice allowing them to score. 

Mason Holgate who had a great game needs to to look at himself too. Clears the ball lazily with his right foot rather than his left to gift them a cheap throw in and then heads the ball out for a cheap corner which they score from. It's simply unacceptable to switch off and become lazy "because it's 2-0, Newcastle are shite and it's 91 minutes" as this is the what happens. 

Fabien Delph, abysmal. Twatting the ball right into Newcastle possession rather than playing it short and keeping the thing for another 60 seconds - dreadful. 

All three need a good bollocking for quite simply playing like inexperienced, terrified six-year olds. 

Edit: "Supporters" coming down the stairs saying "that's football" and "bloody Everton that" need to have a look at themselves too. It's not football or Everton, it's being brain-dead when a blind man on a galloping horse could see exactly what went wrong and what was going to happen.

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5 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

I’m getting off the site for a bit. Too many knobheads have turned up for me that talk absolute shite. 

You definitely need a break.

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2 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

The level of incompetence on show tonight is utterly staggering. Jordan Pickford completely unable to kill the game and command his area has cost us two points, utterly dismal at being a presence and shitting the bed twice allowing them to score. 

Mason Holgate who had a great game needs to to look at himself too. Clears the ball lazily with his right foot rather than his left to gift them a cheap throw in and then heads the ball out for a cheap corner which they score from. It's simply unacceptable to switch off and become lazy "because it's 2-0, Newcastle are shite and it's 91 minutes" as this is the what happens. 

Fabien Delph, abysmal. Twatting the ball right into Newcastle possession rather than playing it short and keeping the thing for another 60 seconds - dreadful. 

All three need a good bollocking for quite simply playing like inexperienced, terrified six-year olds. 

Delph has been a terrible signing and to think media pundits were applauding the signing as a masterstroke. He is a prime example of why we should no longer be looking at other club's cast offs

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6 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

I’m getting off the site for a bit. Too many knobheads have turned up for me that talk absolute shite. 

It's frustration Finn mate; what just happened was a once in a lifetime thing that people can't process, my lad's just said to me that he won't be able to get to sleep tonight because the absurdity of it will still be in his brain. It was nothing to do with the substitutions, nothing to do with us "shitting our pants" it was just a freak happening that happens once in a decade and this decade we're the fall guys. Shit happens.

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2 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Delph has been a terrible signing and to think media pundits were applauding the signing as a masterstroke. He is a prime example of why we should no longer be looking at other club's cast offs

Was the first person to defend his signing, thought it was a great bit of business. Turns out he's better suited playing as a wide defensive player for a team that always has the ball and he has nothing to do. 

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

It's frustration Finn mate; what just happened was a once in a lifetime thing that people can't process, my lad's just said to me that he won't be able to get to sleep tonight because the absurdity of it will still be in his brain. It was nothing to do with the substitutions, nothing to do with us "shitting our pants" it was just a freak happening that happens once in a decade and this decade we're the fall guys. Shit happens.

Erm....you sure it's a once in a lifetime happening?! Are you really sure? Once in a decade?! Hmmmm.

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Ancelotti has to shoulder a lot of blame for that. We were under zero pressure, absolutely none. Newcastle hadn’t come to play, they didn’t even come alive once we took the lead. They still didn’t push us. As soon as we made our first sub we invited pressure. The second sub made it worse. And then Niasse... fucks sake. There is no point to him fucking existing. He doesn’t deserve a place on the bench.

Im fuming with Ancelotti tbh and I think it’s warranted. 

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2 minutes ago, MikeO said:

It's frustration Finn mate; what just happened was a once in a lifetime thing that people can't process, my lad's just said to me that he won't be able to get to sleep tonight because the absurdity of it will still be in his brain. It was nothing to do with the substitutions, nothing to do with us "shitting our pants" it was just a freak happening that happens once in a decade and this decade we're the fall guys. Shit happens.

Not having that mate.

We brought in on ourselves. It started when Digne and Davies started fucking around at our own corner flag. We've been dismal at defending set pieces, our players seem to shirk from the physical challenges at corners and free kicks. We always look vulnerable from crosses into the box.

Last week Delph gave away an absolutely mindless free kick that West Ham went and scored from, again because we are utterly pathetic at defending set pieces.

Our players are really fucking stupid at times and once again they utterly switched off.

Pickford is prone to errors and has been all season. He just doesn't control his territory 

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15 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

It's not a rule that you have to make subs. It's not obligatory.

 

15 minutes ago, Aidan said:

Why do we feel obliged to make a change ? It was working. However, I've offered an alternative if you feast your eyes on my post the answer your question is Walcott, should have been the first one off. 

Kean was our biggest threat on the counter and was getting us up the pitch. Bernard was our creative spark. Davies came on and didn't settle into the game what so ever, had no pace or strength to see out the game, Bernard and Kean would have been better defensive options already on the pitch with the work rate and tenacity. 

so your solution to this evening was to make no changes and keep a gassed and coming back from injury bernard on the pitch as he was continually being bullied by newcastle's rugby players?  keep kean on who hasn't finished a full 90 for us yet?  

 

honestly i give up.  thinking that that would have changed the tide is just not comprehensible for me.  the attitude of the players and their turning off and not playing to the whistle is what lost it.  you can call it a winning mentality, you can call it mental toughness, whatever.  that's the issue.  a couple subs had nothing to do with it.

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Newcastle captain Jamaal Lascelles speaking to Match of the Day: "It's probably one of the weirdest game I’ve been involved in.

"They were the better team but we’ve come back from being two goals down and that shows the spirit and courage in this team. So we’re pleased with that.

"The work ethic carries on throughout all the game. They dropped off and allowed us to play, which benefited us towards the end of the game. We had good subs as well."

Nah lad. Won't be anything to do with the subs. Irrelevant.

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1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

so your solution to this evening was to make no changes and keep a gassed and coming back from injury bernard on the pitch as he was continually being bullied by newcastle's rugby players?  keep kean on who hasn't finished a full 90 for us yet?  

 

honestly i give up.  thinking that that would have changed the tide is just not comprehensible for me.  the attitude of the players and their turning off and not playing to the whistle is what lost it.  you can call it a winning mentality, you can call it mental toughness, whatever.  that's the issue.  a couple subs had nothing to do with it.

Please do.

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7 minutes ago, Aidan said:

Was the first person to defend his signing, thought it was a great bit of business. Turns out he's better suited playing as a wide defensive player for a team that always has the ball and he has nothing to do. 

I thought we should have learned from signing Schneiderlin and a few others that it doesn't work anymore. The league has changed since we signed Gareth Barry. It is much more dynamic. Every team can compete physically and you cannot carry passengers. Delph is weak, he is slow and he doesn't have the technical ability to get out of trouble.

You've got to have something about you in the Premier League. Some attribute that you can beat a player with, something to get you out of trouble. Delph offers nothing because his pace has gone and he was never a physical presence.

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4 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

so your solution to this evening was to make no changes and keep a gassed and coming back from injury bernard on the pitch as he was continually being bullied by newcastle's rugby players?  keep kean on who hasn't finished a full 90 for us yet?  

 

honestly i give up.  thinking that that would have changed the tide is just not comprehensible for me.  the attitude of the players and their turning off and not playing to the whistle is what lost it.  you can call it a winning mentality, you can call it mental toughness, whatever.  that's the issue.  a couple subs had nothing to do with it.

Why make 2 defensive changes when you're in absolute full control of a game? 

Those changes define the mentality of the whole club. 

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11 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

We will see the end when these players are gone. I was disappointed with Digne at the end. Free kick was truly awful, under no pressure to get us back in the game but he blasted it over the bar, then he was fucking around at OUR corner flag instead of just knocking it up the line. Davies was utterly brain dead with that too.

We lack physicality in midfield. Nobody can receive the ball and turn with it under pressure. Only Kean was really doing it tonight and Bernard via his skill.

Subs were poor and shows how bad our squad is that we bring Niasse on.

But really we didn’t need to bring Niasse on, why take a good player off to put a poor or lesser player on, for me some substitutions are unnecessary and impede the team rather than improve, but still we shouldn’t have folded like we did and that’s more of a issue with the players than the manager. 

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1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

they dropped off, says it all for me newts.  they took off their striker and replaced him with a RB and you think they were going for it?  no, i'm with mike, they got lucky and we switched off.  lack of concentration and winning mentality.

I'm not sure you're reading that right mate??? That s the Newcastle Captain talking about us...Where have you got that I think they were going for it from?!!! What you on about?! This is one of those hopeless convos I think.

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2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

so your solution to this evening was to make no changes and keep a gassed and coming back from injury bernard on the pitch as he was continually being bullied by newcastle's rugby players?  keep kean on who hasn't finished a full 90 for us yet?  

 

honestly i give up.  thinking that that would have changed the tide is just not comprehensible for me.  the attitude of the players and their turning off and not playing to the whistle is what lost it.  you can call it a winning mentality, you can call it mental toughness, whatever.  that's the issue.  a couple subs had nothing to do with it.

The subs were awful. We had no outlet because of those subs. DCL was booked and ran the risk of being sent off.

Niasse can't hold up the ball, Davies can't hold up the ball, Coleman was a defensive sub and Sidibe wasn't really holding the ball up anyway.

We couldn't get out of our own half and that was compounded with the abject stupidity of our players.

Ancelotti has to take note of this. Some of these players are completely thick.

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13 minutes ago, MikeO said:

It's frustration Finn mate; what just happened was a once in a lifetime thing that people can't process, my lad's just said to me that he won't be able to get to sleep tonight because the absurdity of it will still be in his brain. It was nothing to do with the substitutions, nothing to do with us "shitting our pants" it was just a freak happening that happens once in a decade and this decade we're the fall guys. Shit happens.

Mike you are the voice of reason but can you seriously think of any 'top' side letting this happen in the way it did?

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Baffled as to why everyone is going back and forth about the substitutions. No professional football team should be conceding two goals in the 94th minute regardless of whether Oumar Niasse, Greaham Norton or a paper bag has been brought onto the pitch. 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, putting it down to a "freak occurrence" is naive and quite frankly short sighted. There were clear errors from the players on the pitch that allowed the goals to happen - argue all you want about who should or shouldn't have been taken off but the point still stands for me - no professional football team should crumble like that. 

Unacceptable in every sense of the word. 

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9 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Erm....you sure it's a once in a lifetime happening?! Are you really sure? Once in a decade?! Hmmmm.

Once in a decade it happens to anyone in the top flight, once in a lifetime (if you're unlucky) it's your club that's the one shooting themselves in the foot.

Apologies for not being as pissed off as I should be but I was coming off an epically good day personally so really we could've lost 5-0 tonight and I'd have gone to bed happy-ish.

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3 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

Baffled as to why everyone is going back and forth about the substitutions. No professional football team should be conceding two goals in the 94th minute regardless of whether Oumar Niasse, Greaham Norton or a paper bag has been brought onto the pitch. 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, putting it down to a "freak occurrence" is naive and quite frankly short sighted. There were clear errors from the players on the pitch that allowed the goals to happen - argue all you want about who should or shouldn't have been taken off but the point still stands for me - no professional football team should crumble like that. 

Unacceptable in every sense of the word. 

Oh there were a whole host of reasons that this happened. The subs were poor and invited pressure onto us.

Our defence is feeble and has been awful at set pieces all season. Newcastle knew that if they could flood the box then Pickford would flap at it and our players would switch off.

This is not a random occurrence. We have been feeble in defence all season.

Mentally we have something wrong at this club and it has been with us for years. We cannot see out games. How many times are we under attack in the final few minutes compared to us going for the finish. We need to start acting like we are a goal down every week I'm the final moments of a game. The ball is always in our half, we don't go for the throat in games.

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2 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

Baffled as to why everyone is going back and forth about the substitutions. No professional football team should be conceding two goals in the 94th minute regardless of whether Oumar Niasse, Greaham Norton or a paper bag has been brought onto the pitch. 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, putting it down to a "freak occurrence" is naive and quite frankly short sighted. There were clear errors from the players on the pitch that allowed the goals to happen - argue all you want about who should or shouldn't have been taken off but the point still stands for me - no professional football team should crumble like that. 

Unacceptable in every sense of the word. 

Does your first para (for which I "greened" you) not contradict your second one? If you're saying, "no professional football team should crumble like that" I'd agree completely, it would need a freak set of circumstances for such a ridiculous thing to happen; hence "freak occurrence" for me.

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10 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Once in a decade it happens to anyone in the top flight, once in a lifetime (if you're unlucky) it's your club that's the one shooting themselves in the foot.

Apologies for not being as pissed off as I should be but I was coming off an epically good day personally so really we could've lost 5-0 tonight and I'd have gone to bed happy-ish.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34887539

Some differences but just as galling! I remember wanting Martinez's head on a spike that afternoon. I'm not quite so pissed off at this because I accept we're an average team atm and this season hasn't got anything on it for me. 

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

Does your first para (for which I "greened" you) not contradict your second one? If you're saying, "no professional football team should crumble like that" I'd agree completely, it would need a freak set of circumstances for such a ridiculous thing to happen; hence "freak occurrence" for me.

No professional football team should crumble like that, however we have a rotten, feeble mentality and poor judgement which has allowed what has happened today to happen. Whilst it isn't the same result, it's the exact same reason why we went to Anfield and lost to a couple of lads doing work experience. 

There is a mentality problem at the club that raises its head when we come under any form of pressure. The "freak occurrence" in this instance is that we have a goalkeeper unable to command his box (which is a serious issue) and an experienced head (Delph) who instead of retaining possession hoofs the ball 50 yards into Newcastle's defence allowing them to counter attack. If the KO had gone back to the defence, down the wing and into the corner flag then we would have won 2-1 and saved our blushes. 

In short, the freak set of circumstances are our own doing, which is why it's so unacceptable and why I am so utterly devistated. 

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15 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Once in a decade it happens to anyone in the top flight, once in a lifetime (if you're unlucky) it's your club that's the one shooting themselves in the foot.

Apologies for not being as pissed off as I should be but I was coming off an epically good day personally so really we could've lost 5-0 tonight and I'd have gone to bed happy-ish.

No No, it's fair enough.

Wish I wasn't as pissed off.

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We need to get a sports psychologist in because these players have got some serious problems to sort out in their heads. I remember Moyes getting one in, Jags talked about it, because some of the players were doubting themselves.

These players just look so fearful, especially on derby day, there's a real panic that can set into the side when things go awry. Tonight showed again that they panic and start making all the wrong decisions. It is most disappointing when experienced players like Delph, who was brought in specifically for this reason, cannot calm the players and manage the game 

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Just now, Palfy said:

It’s not good but it’s also not the end of the world, all we can do is take it on the chin and learn from it. 

All we ever do is take it on the chin. Every season that goes by is a false dawn. We make some new signings, get a new manager and then piss the season away.

What's worse is that we have good and bad spells. We look like we are finally getting it and then it all collapses again. All we really want is a bit of consistency. To know that the players are as good as they are and the performances will only ever be what they will be. For the last 5 years we have been absolutely all over the place and that is the most frustrating thing.

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8 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

No professional football team should crumble like that, however we have a rotten, feeble mentality and poor judgement which has allowed what has happened today to happen. Whilst it isn't the same result, it's the exact same reason why we went to Anfield and lost to a couple of lads doing work experience. 

There is a mentality problem at the club that raises its head when we come under any form of pressure. The "freak occurrence" in this instance is that we have a goalkeeper unable to command his box (which is a serious issue) and an experienced head (Delph) who instead of retaining possession hoofs the ball 50 yards into Newcastle's defence allowing them to counter attack. If the KO had gone back to the defence, down the wing and into the corner flag then we would have won 2-1 and saved our blushes. 

In short, the freak set of circumstances are our own doing, which is why it's so unacceptable and why I am so utterly devistated. 

I get where you're coming from here, I do.

I get where MarkJazz is trying to go. I get the angle of most. We all have an opinion.

But, I'm sorry, but my perception in not based just on this game. Carlo has done this in several games and we've started to buckle. It's a dangerous method for us. And I've commented on it in other game threads and in his own thread. I've never really been one to pop off about subs - you can fact check this in other threads.

But, honestly, you could see this coming. That s why I'm so frustrated. One, you could see it coming. Two, it feels like Carlo is above critiscm. I don't think he is (and for balance, you can read my thoughts on him in his threads).

Anyway. Fuck it. There's more positive signs then there are negatives. Much more. Just hope this defensive sub malarkey looks better when we have a squad of world class multi cup winning players.

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I don't necessarily agree with the type of subs made. I have moaned about very similar subs before (Sidibe right mid, Davies left) but to some extent I can understand the two players going off. Kean had run his arse off and Bernard looked as if his effect was wearing off. The sports scientists know when these guys are reaching the end of their teathers.  

The problem is that we sat back and invited pressure, however in saying that, they still weren't troubling us but we weren't having any joy in keeping the ball and relieving the pressure to see the game out rather than defending to see the game out. It should have been Gordon on as either first or second sub. It should have then probably been Tosun rather than letting him leave and bringing Niasse on. Walcott was doing well up top and he would have been able to conserve more energy there, so he might not have needed to come off so soon. It looked a matter of time until we got the 3rd at that point. When he went off we offered no threat so I don't know why we had to change the way we were playing. 

Having said all of that, the goals were two set pieces and Zoo is right that it was some absolute naivety and unfortunately it was mainly Holgate's naivety. His reaction for the clearance into the stands was that of a man who thought the job was done. The header comment is probably harsh but the it's the free kick that gets me the most. He is more interested in bumping his man than he is in winning the header and winning the game. It's massive complacency. He had made a few naive error early but he grew into the game but to do that at the end is just ridiculous. Davies doesn't help either because he just doesn't more or react to do the same, win the game, but the actions of Holgate are to fuck around rather than doing what he is on the pitch to do.

40 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Hmmmmmm

Turns out Bruce is a genius! 

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