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Palfy

Corona Virus

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11 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the national review is a barely credible far right publication, i am very surprised you are using them.  it's american far right which is about as anti-China as it gets, i'm not at all surprised they would have an article like that.

Did not know that about the national review.   There's other publications reporting the same though.  Point is, China's numbers are very unlikely.  Very poor hygiene, a cover up to start the epidemic, millions cooped together and still only 3000 deaths... Add to that China has lied about everything and anything negative happening within its borders in the past.   If you go by the numbers there's another country that is even more impressive than China, North Korea with 0 deaths.

To answer Palfy's point, just because their numbers might not be correct, doesn't mean you can't learn something from what you do know for certain about their approach.

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14 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the national review is a barely credible far right publication, i am very surprised you are using them.  it's american far right which is about as anti-China as it gets, i'm not at all surprised they would have an article like that.

Media bias has them as right biased but mostly factual, which is entirely possible unless you view conservatism as a mental illness.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-review/

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

Media bias has them as right biased but mostly factual, which is entirely possible unless you view conservatism as a mental illness.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-review/

If you look at credible sources on that site (Like NPR)  you will see them only listed in the “very high” setting.  National review is 2 below that.  Not something I would trust especially on a China hit piece,  but to each their own.

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19 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

If you look at credible sources on that site (Like NPR)  you will see them only listed in the “very high” setting.  National review is 2 below that.  Not something I would trust especially on a China hit piece,  but to each their own.

Thing is mate I would believe a right biased US news publication before anything the Chinese government was telling us, remember they currently have a couple of million Uighur Muslims in concentration camps for "re-education" 

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On 29/03/2020 at 20:04, Matt said:

WFH 

Update, two days WFH and have to admit I'm being much more productive so far, although not enjoying the video meetings at all.

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17 minutes ago, Chach said:

Update, two days WFH and have to admit I'm being much more productive so far, although not enjoying the video meetings at all.

Confcalls and video meetings are a nightmare no matter where you are though!

 

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5 hours ago, Chach said:

Thing is mate I would believe a right biased US news publication before anything the Chinese government was telling us, remember they currently have a couple of million Uighur Muslims in concentration camps for "re-education" 

the country you live in had people in similar conditions on Manus Island (might still have them there).  USA has people in Guantanamo in cuba with no trial and torturing them daily.  we still take australia and usa info as credible.  no country is perfect (i'm not saying any of those actions are excuseable, they are not).  

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

Update, two days WFH and have to admit I'm being much more productive so far, although not enjoying the video meetings at all.

Harvard studies have shown working from home actually increases worker productivity.  I have been petitioning my work (before this crisis) to allow full work from home (i work remote 2 days a week usually) as a way for everyone to be more productive and have better work/life balance.  i'm hoping with this crisis and everyone working from home now they will see the benefits. Thankfully we aren't doing video meetings, just audio, i can understand how video meetings would be awful.  have you seen the tweet going round about the lady who goes to the bathroom during the video meeting not realizing everyone is watching her?  

 

https://www.inc.com/scott-mautz/new-harvard-research-says-its-time-to-let-employees-work-from-anywhere-the-productivity-gains-alone-are-impressive.html 

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WHO said test test test 6 weeks ago, Boris and his cronies until 2 weeks ago said no it’s not necessary, with deaths soaring and hospitals being stretched, today they have realised what we all new that testing for everyone is the only way forward, since this started this government have never had a viable plan, Boris has always acted like the lovable clown 🤡 the reality is it wasn’t an act he is a fucking clown 🤡 

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1 hour ago, pete0 said:

qcmp73vi31q41.jpg

Sure we've talked anti-vaccination on here, can't find the thread though. 

 

That almost wants me to reactivate my social media accounts to spam it everywhere 

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Count your blessings you don't live in the state of Georgia. This, ladies and gentlemen, is the guy in charge where I live.

Incidentally, it's nice to see that Uncle Arthur is doing well here in Atlanta. Does Del Boy know?
 

 

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18 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the country you live in had people in similar conditions on Manus Island (might still have them there).  USA has people in Guantanamo in cuba with no trial and torturing them daily.  we still take australia and usa info as credible.  no country is perfect (i'm not saying any of those actions are excuseable, they are not).  

That's whataboutery, Australia has had mandatory detention since the 90's for people arriving without a valid visa. (most of whom have been settled here as soon as their identify and status as refugees could be established) 

That is not analogous to detaining your own citizens and subjecting them to "re-education" because of their religious beliefs and then harvesting the organs of citizens who won't comply.

The US and Australia are taken as credible because they ARE credible, we have multi layered government systems with separation of power and a robust free press. There is no comparison.

 

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18 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Harvard studies have shown working from home actually increases worker productivity.  I have been petitioning my work (before this crisis) to allow full work from home (i work remote 2 days a week usually) as a way for everyone to be more productive and have better work/life balance.  i'm hoping with this crisis and everyone working from home now they will see the benefits. Thankfully we aren't doing video meetings, just audio, i can understand how video meetings would be awful.  have you seen the tweet going round about the lady who goes to the bathroom during the video meeting not realizing everyone is watching her?  

 

https://www.inc.com/scott-mautz/new-harvard-research-says-its-time-to-let-employees-work-from-anywhere-the-productivity-gains-alone-are-impressive.html 

We better all agree not to be too productive or they might realise they don't need us all!

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Every night at 21h everyone goes to their balconies or front doors to clap and ring bells. 3 weeks of it now but today someone setup their sound system and was belting out an opera piece. Very moving. 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Every night at 21h everyone goes to their balconies or front doors to clap and ring bells. 3 weeks of it now but today someone setup their sound system and was belting out an opera piece. Very moving. 

Every night? That would piss me off to be honest; I'm in bed by that time on occasion so someone belting out opera would just piss me off more than I already am. We have the Thursday night 8:00pm applause going on and I've joined in with that, but some of the people in our road are doing an 11.00am "dance" session (to YMCA most recently) which is for me about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I'm not about to go out and complain and people are dealing with this the best way they can for them but honestly it's not something I need to hear.

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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/coronavirus-adviser-pm-wants-herd-21811857?fbclid=IwAR0WS90UuLMacHEpUTHNtYGyDhLF3SX3gFsFbetdLMzjvpM3Tq6wVN_NzPs

"expert" advisor says government needs to choose between protecting the vulnerable or harming young people.. By harming he means via their parents not working/being able to feed them...

Good to see how the fat right nazi party currently running the shop are gonna frame their neglect/murder. 

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9 hours ago, MikeO said:

Every night? That would piss me off to be honest; I'm in bed by that time on occasion so someone belting out opera would just piss me off more than I already am. We have the Thursday night 8:00pm applause going on and I've joined in with that, but some of the people in our road are doing an 11.00am "dance" session (to YMCA most recently) which is for me about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I'm not about to go out and complain and people are dealing with this the best way they can for them but honestly it's not something I need to hear.

I was thinking the same, my kids are in bed by then.

As the lockdown continues and starts working on peoples nerves more and more, stuff like that, which seems well intended, could really explode into a neighbourhood conflict.

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10 hours ago, MikeO said:

Every night? That would piss me off to be honest; I'm in bed by that time on occasion so someone belting out opera would just piss me off more than I already am. We have the Thursday night 8:00pm applause going on and I've joined in with that, but some of the people in our road are doing an 11.00am "dance" session (to YMCA most recently) which is for me about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I'm not about to go out and complain and people are dealing with this the best way they can for them but honestly it's not something I need to hear.

Y’ald misery. 5 mins every night. The only reason I hear it is because I go to the party deck (our kind of open air loft) to join in. We’re in a very old house so the walls are incredibly thick

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1 hour ago, holystove said:

I was thinking the same, my kids are in bed by then.

As the lockdown continues and starts working on peoples nerves more and more, stuff like that, which seems well intended, could really explode into a neighbourhood conflict.

Mine too but she sleeps like the dead. 

No chance of conflict here. They shout their goodbyes and jokes out of the window, someone’s has improvised a drum kit to accompany the trombone and Alpanhorn. 5 mins of joviality seems to be bringing people together more and keeping spirits up. 

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On 03/04/2020 at 18:40, Hafnia said:

I'm not usually politically vocal but the coronavirus and the government's appalling handling of it all has made my blood boil.

Essentially as it stands the nhs workers are being told to risk their lives because they aren't valued by our government. Plain and simple.

They have downgraded the severity of the disease in order to ensure they can't be prosecuted for not providing the correct level of protection. 

Great Ormond street hospital has 8 covid patients and have 10 times as many staff who have tested positive. This disease is being caught and spread due to nothing less than manslaughter..... before long there will be no healthy staff to look after patients.

Stay inside everyone.  It really is getting horrendous. 

 

So for clarity, how are you putting responsibility for this with the elected reps and not the people paid to run the NHS?

I know this is a novel virus but in terms of infectious diseases its fairly low down the ladder, surely medical professionals should know what precautions to take?

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27 minutes ago, Chach said:

So for clarity, how are you putting responsibility for this with the elected reps and not the people paid to run the NHS?

I know this is a novel virus but in terms of infectious diseases its fairly low down the ladder, surely medical professionals should know what precautions to take?

Only possible if you have the budget to have precautions planned, let alone resourced. 

Meanwhile, I saw there’s a report that the virus has gone from human to animal (a tiger apparently). If this has gotten into the wildlife, it’s not going away ever. 

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19 minutes ago, Matt said:

Only possible if you have the budget to have precautions planned, let alone resourced. 

That planning could be done within general business as usual risk management it wouldn't require its own budget, it wouldn't even be that big a piece of work in the context of a health system bureaucracy that large. If that work hasn't been done then it's almost certainly a failure of management and I don't see how you can immediately blame the government even though they must take ultimate responsibility.

The Blair government threw money at the NHS left right and centre, was there a pandemic management  plan then? 

 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Only possible if you have the budget to have precautions planned, let alone resourced. 

Meanwhile, I saw there’s a report that the virus has gone from human to animal (a tiger apparently). If this has gotten into the wildlife, it’s not going away ever. 

Last week they found an infected cat in Belgium; got it from its owner.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/103003/coronavirus-belgian-woman-infected-her-cat/

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

So for clarity, how are you putting responsibility for this with the elected reps and not the people paid to run the NHS?

I know this is a novel virus but in terms of infectious diseases its fairly low down the ladder, surely medical professionals should know what precautions to take?

Shit runs from top to bottom.  If middle management comply with the shit from the top in order to fit with budget then they are failing their staff.  This isn't new.... the nhs and the workers close to the frontline have been highlighting these issues for years. 

Like any business you will get "yes merchants" who want to stay in favour of their bosses and don't rock the boat and get paid.

I know for a fact that voices are not heard.  The PPE is an absolute joke - the government downgraded the rating of the disease to fit in with the lack of ppe. It's criminal. 

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18 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Shit runs from top to bottom.  If middle management comply with the shit from the top in order to fit with budget then they are failing their staff.  This isn't new.... the nhs and the workers close to the frontline have been highlighting these issues for years. 

Like any business you will get "yes merchants" who want to stay in favour of their bosses and don't rock the boat and get paid.

I know for a fact that voices are not heard.  The PPE is an absolute joke - the government downgraded the rating of the disease to fit in with the lack of ppe. It's criminal. 

But with regards to occupational health and safety the people who have control of workplace would and should take responsibility with duty of care going down the line. We're not talking about some labourers working with a building product they don't know causes cancer in this instance, these are all university educated people.

It's not like this was a surprise, we were all watching China for a couple of months.

Do you have a source for the downgrading of the disease?

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4 hours ago, Chach said:

That planning could be done within general business as usual risk management it wouldn't require its own budget, it wouldn't even be that big a piece of work in the context of a health system bureaucracy that large. If that work hasn't been done then it's almost certainly a failure of management and I don't see how you can immediately blame the government even though they must take ultimate responsibility.

The Blair government threw money at the NHS left right and centre, was there a pandemic management  plan then? 

 

Could be done, yes, but any business like structures will do a risk assessment and the chance of a pandemic is minute so it will never have seen the table for discussion. The budget part I was referring to was hardware more than people power and most of the work is now suffering from not investing in either

the fact that this is jumping species, especially domesticated animals is the scariest news I’ve read in a while, there is now zero chance of escaping it. I can see lockdown continuing until a vaccine is developed, mass-produced and everyone treated. 

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6 hours ago, Chach said:

But with regards to occupational health and safety the people who have control of workplace would and should take responsibility with duty of care going down the line. We're not talking about some labourers working with a building product they don't know causes cancer in this instance, these are all university educated people.

It's not like this was a surprise, we were all watching China for a couple of months.

Do you have a source for the downgrading of the disease?

 

Yep.... below

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6 hours ago, Chach said:

But with regards to occupational health and safety the people who have control of workplace would and should take responsibility with duty of care going down the line. We're not talking about some labourers working with a building product they don't know causes cancer in this instance, these are all university educated people.

It's not like this was a surprise, we were all watching China for a couple of months.

Do you have a source for the downgrading of the disease?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

He’s more than likely got it because he was a fucking idiot and shook hands with patients he knew had coronavirus!

Not wishing him ill either like. 

There is that as well I suppose. 

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10 hours ago, Hafnia said:

So that's a ranking that was changed based on new data though and by all accounts I've heard from Epidemiologists this virus ranks down the scale in terms of infectious diseases, one I heard who was debunking the "this escaped from the Level 4 infectious disease lab in Wuhan" conspiracy theory said this was level 2 at best.

Even when you look at the criteria listed in the link you supplied it doesn't meet the criteria for a HCID.

The particular claim made that they lowered it specifically to reduce the PPE required doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny because the PPE requirements have have been updated and increased.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-infection-prevention-and-control/covid-19-personal-protective-equipment-ppe

These decisions are being made by experts in the field who are held to the highest ethical standards, not elected members of parliament (whose ethics are questionable at the best of times)

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

So that's a ranking that was changed based on new data though and by all accounts I've heard from Epidemiologists this virus ranks down the scale in terms of infectious diseases, one I heard who was debunking the "this escaped from the Level 4 infectious disease lab in Wuhan" conspiracy theory said this was level 2 at best.

Even when you look at the criteria listed in the link you supplied it doesn't meet the criteria for a HCID.

The particular claim made that they lowered it specifically to reduce the PPE required doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny because the PPE requirements have have been updated and increased.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-infection-prevention-and-control/covid-19-personal-protective-equipment-ppe

These decisions are being made by experts in the field who are held to the highest ethical standards, not elected members of parliament (whose ethics are questionable at the best of times)

Would you like to go and look after some highly likely covid patients armed with nothing more than a surgical mask between their air particles and your lungs - and be told you can get the required protected standard when you are treating a covid tested positive patient?  Surgical masks offer very little protection for the majority of medical procedures. 

The fact that patients aren't getting tested till they have symptoms and even then it's a 3 day wait.... which added on to the 14 day incubation period means you are likely facing huge amounts of viral load every shift. Would you be happy to work in those conditions????

Experts in the field?  Bollocks, it's all about the inability to protect due to poor procurement and preparation.  School kids making visors for staff.... tattoo artists dropping off gloves etc

Look at the UK health care staff vs those in South Korea....  

Cross infection is rife, vulnerable patients without covid are being seen by doctors who are vehicles for transmission due to poor PPE.

It's absolutely scandalous. Which part of the UK are you in? How is your local general doing? Ate your staff adequately protected???

People always look at the picture of blokes over 100 years ago working up the rockerfella centre, sat on iron girders having a ciggie and lunch.... accepting that as mad as it was they probably needed the money and sacrificed safety for the ability to feed their family..... health care staff in 2020 shouldn't be those blokes!

 

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28 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Would you like to go and look after some highly likely covid patients armed with nothing more than a surgical mask between their air particles and your lungs - and be told you can get the required protected standard when you are treating a covid tested positive patient?  Surgical masks offer very little protection for the majority of medical procedures. 

The fact that patients aren't getting tested till they have symptoms and even then it's a 3 day wait.... which added on to the 14 day incubation period means you are likely facing huge amounts of viral load every shift. Would you be happy to work in those conditions????

Experts in the field?  Bollocks, it's all about the inability to protect due to poor procurement and preparation.  School kids making visors for staff.... tattoo artists dropping off gloves etc

Look at the UK health care staff vs those in South Korea....  

Cross infection is rife, vulnerable patients without covid are being seen by doctors who are vehicles for transmission due to poor PPE.

It's absolutely scandalous. Which part of the UK are you in? How is your local general doing? Ate your staff adequately protected???

People always look at the picture of blokes over 100 years ago working up the rockerfella centre, sat on iron girders having a ciggie and lunch.... accepting that as mad as it was they probably needed the money and sacrificed safety for the ability to feed their family..... health care staff in 2020 shouldn't be those blokes!

 

Very emotional response there mate, you claimed the government had purposely downgraded a disease in order to save money on PPE and laid the entire blame at the feet of the elected representatives. A post pretty much anyone with a political bias against tories agreed with as though it was the gospel truth.

When challenged with reasonable and factual information, all the toys go straight out of the pram and the whataboutism starts even though you get very close to the truth when you state it's very likely a failure of planning and procurement.

And people wonder why our political discourse is in the toilet.

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1 hour ago, Chach said:

Very emotional response there mate, you claimed the government had purposely downgraded a disease in order to save money on PPE and laid the entire blame at the feet of the elected representatives. A post pretty much anyone with a political bias against tories agreed with as though it was the gospel truth.

When challenged with reasonable and factual information, all the toys go straight out of the pram and the whataboutism starts even though you get very close to the truth when you state it's very likely a failure of planning and procurement.

And people wonder why our political discourse is in the toilet.

You seem to think I'm basing this on political parties.... I couldn't give a shit about political persuasion and my opinion isn't formed based on who is in power. This is a failing of good people and those responsible need to be held accountable.  I'm sure when there is a public enquiry we will learn some real truths....

The toys aren't in the pram and not should they be -   I have factual first hand information which isn't sugarcoated bullshit. 

So would you like to confirm that you would happily go in to do a job that would potentially cost you, your family and other patients their lives because of inadequate PPE? 

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7 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

You seem to think I'm basing this on political parties.... I couldn't give a shit about political persuasion and my opinion isn't formed based on who is in power. This is a failing of good people and those responsible need to be held accountable.  I'm sure when there is a public enquiry we will learn some real truths....

The toys aren't in the pram and not should they be -   I have factual first hand information which isn't sugarcoated bullshit. 

So would you like to confirm that you would happily go in to do a job that would potentially cost you, your family and other patients their lives because of inadequate PPE? 

You're still trying to deflect from the point you made about the government purposely downgrading the disease, that a very big claim for which you still haven't supplied any evidence. Is it so hard to just admit that maybe you misunderstood or were misguided by someone who had an agenda?

You're "first hand information" is anecdotal, its a large healthcare system some areas will be poorly run, others will not.

With regards to your last point, I have never been in a position where my employer was responsible for my PPE but I always took responsibility for my own and that of my employees.

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28 minutes ago, Chach said:

You're still trying to deflect from the point you made about the government purposely downgrading the disease, that a very big claim for which you still haven't supplied any evidence. Is it so hard to just admit that maybe you misunderstood or were misguided by someone who had an agenda?

You're "first hand information" is anecdotal, its a large healthcare system some areas will be poorly run, others will not.

With regards to your last point, I have never been in a position where my employer was responsible for my PPE but I always took responsibility for my own and that of my employees.

You seem more arsed about point scoring... which says alot I guess. I'm not conceding anything, and as for a that anecdotal nonsense, it's always anecdotal when trying to go up against the government isn't it. 

The justification for downgrading was a "low" mortality rate.... mortality rates will be much lower when lots of deaths have been classed as pneumonia due to the complete lack of clinical diagnosed due to no testing.  But I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince you of that. It's a complete and utter farce. A fraction of promised tests have been Conducted, namely for the staff themselves. 

That's my last response on this.

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1 minute ago, Hafnia said:

You seem more arsed about point scoring... which says alot I guess. I'm not conceding anything, and as for a that anecdotal nonsense, it's always anecdotal when trying to go up against the government isn't it. 

The justification for downgrading was a "low" mortality rate.... mortality rates will be much lower when lots of deaths have been classed as pneumonia due to the complete lack of clinical diagnosed due to no testing.  But I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince you of that. It's a complete and utter farce. A fraction of promised tests have been Conducted, namely for the staff themselves. 

That's my last response on this.

Case fatality rate*

All the deaths will be counted, take your tin foil hat off.

Yes they might have got off to a poor start, they're a big clumsy organisation and preparing for something that has no one knew existed a few months ago or what symptoms it would cause is likely quite a bit harder than people imagine.  The reality could very well be they're doing the absolute best they can under the circumstances.

 

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

Case fatality rate*

All the deaths will be counted, take your tin foil hat off.

Yes they might have got off to a poor start, they're a big clumsy organisation and preparing for something that has no one knew existed a few months ago or what symptoms it would cause is likely quite a bit harder than people imagine.  The reality could very well be they're doing the absolute best they can under the circumstances.

 

So why are the Germans so far a head off
us in testing and Ventilators and PPE as a bigger clumsy organisation working in the same time frame as ourselves, could it quite possibly be because they’ve invested over the years in their health care and were quicker to counteract what was happening elsewhere, if none of them then please explain why?

And explain what you mean by circumstances, circumstances out of there control or circumstances they brought on themselves. 

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17 hours ago, Palfy said:

So why are the Germans so far a head off
us in testing and Ventilators and PPE as a bigger clumsy organisation working in the same time frame as ourselves, could it quite possibly be because they’ve invested over the years in their health care and were quicker to counteract what was happening elsewhere, if none of them then please explain why?

And explain what you mean by circumstances, circumstances out of there control or circumstances they brought on themselves. 

Germany doesn't have the same healthcare system as the UK,  in terms of the things you mention above there I would have thought that was self evident. Germany are dominant when it comes to manufacturing.

Also I would make the point it's a bit early to be drawing conclusions about who is doing better, that's something that can only really be determined at the end.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

Germany doesn't have the same healthcare system as the UK,  in terms of the things you mention above there I would have thought that was self evident. Germany are dominant when it comes to manufacturing.

Also I would make the point it's a bit early to be drawing conclusions about who is doing better, that's something that can only really be determined at the end.

 

 

Poor answer totally ignored everything I asked by given answers to questions I never asked, Germany’s manufacturing capability has nothing to do with why they had more ventilators in the off set than us and why they bought thousands more as soon as they saw what was happening else where, they also bought hundreds of thousands of testing kits at the same time, when this government were talking about shaking hands with people who had tested positive and were advocating herd immunisation, you may work as a civil servant and believe that gives you a better insight into how government works, but please don’t treat us like idiots we all know why the Germans are in a better position than us, it’s because they reacted far quicker to what was happening by weeks. 
So testing is no indication of who is doing better Germany testing I believe 60,000 plus thousand a week and this country struggling to 10,000 I think the WHO would beg to differ with you on that point they have been advocating test test test for over 2 months now. 

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Could it be that Germany has the buying power for the EU and have kept most of it, they are drip feeding France, Spain ,and Italy. All are short of PPE.

The opinion here in Spain is not good towards them, and Italy have been burning the Eu flag in protest,

 

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