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Matt

Political brain dump...

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Right, I’ve finally had time to get to a computer, although it still feels rushed despite so much time writing and editing over the last few days.

This is going to be a long and rambling rant, hence its own thread, so people can put it on ignore if they want. I will not refer to individuals, but you’ll probably know how you are. My aim is not to insult or berate etc. but rather vent my frustration over the whole political landscape and current situation, especially prevalent in the last couple of weeks. 1984 might still be ringing in my ears from 6 months ago, but only because the situation we continually find ourselves in keeps sounding the bell. For the record, I’m apparently a right wing liberal, if that wasn’t already clear, but predominantly a liberal.

I've written this here and there over the last week or so (you’ll probably see where I’ve edited things since it might be disjointed), and is my response to some of the utter horseshit, on here and from the wider world, that I’ve read and heard lately. Most of this is based on a reaction to the world outside of TT (which apparently exists), but there have been some triggers here that set it all off. As the title suggests it’s a brain dump, getting shit off my chest and out of my head and an emotional opinion.

I’m sure there will be aspects that will piss people off. There will be things I get incorrect. More likely both, and in addition I’m going to contradict some of my previous posts and opinions – that’s just inevitable but I’m comfortable with it and think it’s a good thing. If you’re in the second part, I’m open to proof to correct me (although I will not accept newspapers as “sources”. If you’re going to argue, share the source documentation. If you can’t be arsed, then you’ve got no basis for your argument and I won’t bother responding… At least, that’s my aim). If you’re in the first group, well tough shit unless you can show me genuine evidence and thought to your point (see point 2), and I will happily hold my hands up if I cannot counter.

 

Now that the PSA is out of the way, here goes…

The world is suffering. A minute percentage in terms of population, but massive in general terms and I’m sure personal to a lot of you, and with genuine dire consequences for millions+. By suffering I initially meant dying, but then there’s always knock on effects to families and friends who lose loved ones, to the people working stupid hours in ludicrous circumstances and under equipped.

The thing that’s triggered me so much into writing and rewriting this is this… That anyone has politicised this is a fucking embarrassment and you should be ashamed of yourselves if you have. This is not the fault of one party, this is the fault of all of us, globally. ALL OF US. The right have been and are in power? Don’t get me wrong, I hate the Torys with a passion for what they’ve done in both stints that they’ve been in power since I was born in the early 80’s. They have crippled the country irrevocably and absolutely should shoulder a lot of the blame. But they’re not alone. The left failed us completely too, either by their time in power or by failing to provide a convincing opposition to ensure the Tory’s never got into power again.

The Nazi comparisons are a fucking joke too. The Torys are fundamentally selfish, to the point that millions have suffered and died. Won’t and can’t deny that. Labour doesn’t have clean hands either, they have blood on their hands too. I won’t open that can of worms further, but I will add that it was overseas so… doesn’t count, right? That, for those it’s not obvious to, is sarcasm. But, whilst there is a distinction, neither of them are acceptable.

The Torys haven’t come out and declared themselves a superior race and wanting to eliminate another. They haven’t rounded people up, put those people under such strain and torture that they then start killing their own friends and family (the deathcamps were often mostly run by Jews who had been broken and compiled the list of numbers to be executed). If that comparison comes up again, I’m deleting the post outright (yes, I’m aware of the irony). That comparison completely undermines the meaning and memory of what happened in WW2, and times before and since, and you should be absolutely fucking ashamed of yourselves if you make the comparison between the two subjects. It’s the same with the use of the term racist; just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you can mean extreme terms to express yourself. It undermines the actual meaning, belittles the struggles of those that suffer/have suffered. Not to mention you become part of the problem, I’ll come back to that…

What the Torys have done, undeniably, has crippled the country. Brexit was a bad joke, the cheap slogans embarrassing and it’s a sad irony that the majority who voted that way won’t live to see it come to “fruition”, especially with this virus. What the right has done across the world is divide people, drive a bigger and bigger wedge between those with means and those without, so much so that the pendulum has gained momentum and the left are copying because it’s a “winning” strategy. The left are copying the right in order to get control, and none of the left parties have any fucking inkling of a plan apart from “get the power back”. Ok, you get the power back, what fucking then?! The idea that Corbyn could've done better is equally a bad joke since it's complete speculation yet people talk about it as a fact.

Labour, I thought, were being clever; play the long game, let the Torys commit what should’ve been political suicide, and coast on to victory. But they dillied and dallied, trying so hard to see where the voters where look that they lost their own vision and ended up lost. They should’ve learnt from the Lib Dem’s, although at least they didn’t sell their soul for a minute in the limelight – That single decision by the Lib Dem’s killed their party for the foreseeable and also played a major part in further dividing opinion.

If you think any of the parties represent you and your beliefs, then I don’t really know what to say. Even in the best-case scenario, they’ve sold you want you want to hear but won’t actually deliver it; it’s not in their interests afterall. I have gone from not having a vote anywhere in the world, to wanting to vote strategically, which makes me sick. Yet the populations of the world continue to vote in these bastards. To clarify, I am generalising, and there are good honest politicians out there.  But how broken does the system have to be that people can use “lesser of 2 evils” as a genuine reason to vote for a party!!! It’s madness. Anyone who doesn’t vote because they live in a stronghold – this is on you too. Use your voice rather than just succumb to defeat. Honest voting is the only way we’ll get any positive change, and I mean honest; not historical allegiance, not tactical – honest.

In any case, overall, politicians are liars. Either because they’re selfish and career-oriented, or know how to play the game for what they perceive to be the greater good and end up becoming corrupted by that dream. What choice have you got? Frankly none really, though more than me. It’s the “democracy” we’ve got, which in itself has variations, and it’s not going to change any time soon, especially considering recent events like Brexit and Covoid-19. But for the love of all that is holy or whatever term you want to use; can we not use this illness, killing people across the world and causing chaos and misery, as an opportunity to keep score against the other team? This isn’t a fucking competition, there is no cup to win. All politicians globally have failed us, past and present. Again, personally I believe the right wing has caused more damage than the left, presently and in the past. I’m not going to point fingers at a side – it’s on all of them, and consequently on all of those who can vote.  The only way any of them can be held accountable for all this and for real change is honest voting, and hopefully a change in the archaic democratic systems that the most powerful countries of the world still have in place. Everything else has to keep up with the times and adapt, everything else has to evolve, and sometimes it takes an unexpected leap, but politics just hasn’t, and it’s not the politicians that suffer the most, it’s the populations.

 

The only link I want to see between Covid-19 and politics in future is a dramatic change for the good of everyone. Point scoring will only make things worse, referring to the past events to blame the current situation will only distance people. Learn from the past, don’t use it as an excuse. If you have a voice, make sure it is educated with fact before voicing it, and be prepared to provide genuine evidence.

 

I hope this doesn’t cause a shitstorm, I’ve really not got the patience to spend! So I’ll finish with the most important part – Please take care, regardless of your political preference. Even the people I actively despise (with one exception, who’s not on the forum in case you’re wondering). Stay safe, support others where you can. If anyone wants to Skype or Facetime etc. because they’re alone, drop me a PM and we can say hi. Just take care of you, your own and everyone.

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The tory party clapped when they refused to give the nurses a pay rise and yet those same evil little nazi's are on their door step "clapping support". They haven't supported the NHS, they have purposely done the opposite "needless deaths" or murder by neglect would be a more fitting term. This is very much the time to highlight the issues, or politicise as you call it. Nurses, doctors and millions are at risk because of the current leaders lack of preparation* and because of his parties dangerously low underfunding of the NHS the last 10 years.

*we're clearly doing a back door herd immunity policy so preparation may be the wrong word. We've chose not to be join in with the rest of the EU to help prepare. Plus the delay in getting ventilation equipment passed on buying the equipment now and instead asked Dyson to build some. Biggest joke was the back up plan... Ask Donald trump to sort us. 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/british-government-blames-lost-emails-for-coronavirus-eu-procurement-chaos/

Were Hitler focused on the Jewish, the tory party have attacked the poor with their cruel and completely unfounded austerity policy, add to that the comments from BJ about Muslims, gays, and black people. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/perfect-storm-austerity-behind-130000-deaths-uk-ippr-report

And yes I said nazi, because they are far right, they are racist, they are fascist, and the proganda was unbelievable 88% of ads misleading. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-tory-labour-policy-hitler-appeasement-terrifying-parallels-a8553686.html%3famp

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5 minutes ago, Chach said:

@Matt were you after replies to this or just getting it off your chest?

Just getting off my chest. It’s by no means trying to present facts etc, but the nonsense of bringing Nazism into it all and the use of this pandemic as political pointscoring really wound me up. Happy to see replies as I mentioned, but I’ll only acknowledge actual source material rather than paper interpretation 

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Matt, I haven't read your post but I gather you're arguing not to politicise the issue. That's just impossible and you aren't going to get your wish, never in a million years will an issue that is impacting on people's lives this much not be politicised. People are dying because of politics.

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31 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Matt, I haven't read your post but I gather you're arguing not to politicise the issue. That's just impossible and you aren't going to get your wish, never in a million years will an issue that is impacting on people's lives this much not be politicised. People are dying because of politics.

I’m angry that the current situation is being used as a point scoring opportunity. I’ve addressed the political historical aspect briefly (I would’ve written more but want to get it out there), and of course there’s a clear political point behind all this. That was past, I’m trying to look at the present and future; we are where we are, we need to work forward rather than waste energy on blaming past actions. 

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37 minutes ago, Matt said:

I’m angry that the current situation is being used as a point scoring opportunity. I’ve addressed the political historical aspect briefly (I would’ve written more but want to get it out there), and of course there’s a clear political point behind all this. That was past, I’m trying to look at the present and future; we are where we are, we need to work forward rather than waste energy on blaming past actions. 

I'm not saying you're right or wrong for that, but it's just not going to happen. Life and death, as this is, is going to be a big issue to everyone and if people think there is blame to be put on groups or people for the numbers dead then they are going to say so.

I'm not going to go into whether it's right or wrong to brush that under the carpet for the moment but it's going to be in your face throughout all of this, so I suggest you go and get in a bunker and don't go online and don't watch tv :lol: 

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10 hours ago, pete0 said:

Were Hitler focused on the Jewish, the tory party have attacked the poor with their cruel and completely unfounded austerity policy, add to that the comments from BJ about Muslims, gays, and black people. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/perfect-storm-austerity-behind-130000-deaths-uk-ippr-report

That article's main citation is research done by a left wing think tank, and the argument that research is making is that the government is essentially responsible for peoples poor lifestyle choices that result in preventable/premature death.

There is likely a well thought out conservative position rooted in moral foundations theory how that is not a fair and equitable position for society as a whole.

Hardly evidence of Fascism. No wonder we're getting hammered at every possible election. Non stop claims to victimhood get boring.

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2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I'm not saying you're right or wrong for that, but it's just not going to happen. Life and death, as this is, is going to be a big issue to everyone and if people think there is blame to be put on groups or people for the numbers dead then they are going to say so.

I'm not going to go into whether it's right or wrong to brush that under the carpet for the moment but it's going to be in your face throughout all of this, so I suggest you go and get in a bunker and don't go online and don't watch tv :lol: 

That’s absolutely going to happen, but the rant was getting shit off my chest. I’m not hiding from the present or past, i just wanted to say and encourage people to look forward rather than dwell on the failings of the past

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

Just getting off my chest. It’s by no means trying to present facts etc, but the nonsense of bringing Nazism into it all and the use of this pandemic as political pointscoring really wound me up. Happy to see replies as I mentioned, but I’ll only acknowledge actual source material rather than paper interpretation 

What parallels don't you agree with between our tory government and the former German one? 

As for point scoring. This isn't point scoring. People are dying because we have such a cruel government. 

Do you think austerity was the right thing to do? When has it ever worked in history? 

Back to the point scoring as you call it. At the moment how this has been dealt with is disgraceful. We had months to prepare yet our disgrace of a PM went round shaking hands in hospitals and misleading people that it's nothing to worry about, that very same 'leader' is now fining people for standing to close to their mates which is a rediculous policy when you're still allowing them to work next to each other. You think no one should criticise this shit show the government is running? You think it's fine that our gov is saying one thing whilst doing another? The government passed on PPE equipment, the government also chose not to join the EU in finding resources (and lied to the public they missed the email to do so). Then the shit hit the fan and we asked dyson to make some rather than use a ready to go supplier... All whilst people are dying. And that's the bottom line. People are dying. That's not point scoring. 

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

That article's main citation is research done by a left wing think tank, and the argument that research is making is that the government is essentially responsible for peoples poor lifestyle choices that result in preventable/premature death.

There is likely a well thought out conservative position rooted in moral foundations theory how that is not a fair and equitable position for society as a whole.

Hardly evidence of Fascism. No wonder we're getting hammered at every possible election. Non stop claims to victimhood get boring.

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

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14 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What parallels don't you agree with between our tory government and the former German one? 

 

You can build a case for many of the things you mention (Government cruelty, uselessness, lack of planning, hypocrisy), but to make a parallel with the Nazis is an affront to those who lived under the regime, and the families of those affected.  

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23 minutes ago, Formby said:

You can build a case for many of the things you mention (Government cruelty, uselessness, lack of planning, hypocrisy), but to make a parallel with the Nazis is an affront to those who lived under the regime, and the families of those affected.  

It's more offensive to not learn from history. Our leader and his party have used the same tactics as the Nazis (their party even has this guy https://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mp-pictured-hanging-out-with-hitler-loving-holocaust-denying-neo-nazi-at-brexit-event/ ). 

We should be standing up against the far right. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-lammy-tory-brexiteers-nazi-aprtheid-racist-immigration-erg-rees-mogg-a8869371.html%3famp

 

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I agree now is not the time for infighting or points scoring we need to work together to conquer this, but mistakes have been made and when this is over they need addressing  and if it means attacking those who took part in the mistakes then so be it, why should they be able to have immunity on the decisions they made. 
Try to remember people are dying young and old and when this is finished there families will want answers, and they should get the answers to there questions no matter how political the inquest becomes. 
And I don’t wish Boris any harm I may not like him or his party, but I would get no pleasure in anyone dying, but I would feel some satisfaction in seeing him answer his critics for what could be proven to be an unnecessary loss of life, under Cameron Mays and his tenure as PM. 
 

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1 hour ago, Formby said:

You can build a case for many of the things you mention (Government cruelty, uselessness, lack of planning, hypocrisy), but to make a parallel with the Nazis is an affront to those who lived under the regime, and the families of those affected.  

Exactly this. 

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1 hour ago, Formby said:

but to make a parallel with the Nazis is an affront to those who lived under the regime, and the families of those affected.  

Can you explain what you meant by that. 

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4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Can you explain what you meant by that. 

Isn’t it obvious?! The Nazis hunted people, murdered by the millions directly. The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil but they’re still a million miles from Hitlers regime and ideal. The affront is the complete ignorance of the events and lack of respect for those that died to defend freedom. 

I did say I’d delete nazi references, without deliberation, so 1 reply each with that reference then I’ll start deleting 

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49 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree now is not the time for infighting or points scoring we need to work together to conquer this, but mistakes have been made and when this is over they need addressing  and if it means attacking those who took part in the mistakes then so be it, why should they be able to have immunity on the decisions they made. 
Try to remember people are dying young and old and when this is finished there families will want answers, and they should get the answers to there questions no matter how political the inquest becomes. 
And I don’t wish Boris any harm I may not like him or his party, but I would get no pleasure in anyone dying, but I would feel some satisfaction in seeing him answer his critics for what could be proven to be an unnecessary loss of life, under Cameron Mays and his tenure as PM. 
 

Mistakes were made, and those who made them should be held accountable. But that’s everyone who voted at the end of the day. 

Look forward, and in looking forward learn from the past. Anything else will simply be destructive 

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15 minutes ago, Matt said:

Isn’t it obvious?! The Nazis hunted people, murdered by the millions directly. The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil but they’re still a million miles from Hitlers regime and ideal. The affront is the complete ignorance of the events and lack of respect for those that died to defend freedom. 

I did say I’d delete nazi references, without deliberation, so 1 reply each with that reference then I’ll start deleting 

The Nazi’s were a political party from the early 30s voted in by the people of Germany, not started just for the the extinction of the Jews and any other race or religion Hitler didn’t like. 
The first concentration camps opened in 1933 for political opponents they were work camps not death camps, though I’m sure many died in them none the less, things changed in 1939 when Hitler and his inner circle put the SS in charge of the camps to systematically kill Jews homosexuals Romany gypsies and other groups they believed should be exterminated. 
But the vast majority of Germans who voted for the the far right Nazi party were unaware what was happening in these camps because it wasn’t general knowledge. 
So a Nazi isn’t automatically someone who was part of the SS killing machine they are in the main people who voted for a far right party. 
The thing is everyone one who voted them in power cannot be held responsible for the fact that there leaders turned out to be  psychopathic monsters who had built themselves a private army in the SS to carry out their orders, an army of killers who struck fear in their own countrymen. 
Since when has it been illegal to call someone a Nazi in this country, and is deleting freedom of speech because it doesn’t sit well with you not the actions of far right parties. 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

It's more offensive to not learn from history. Our leader and his party have used the same tactics as the Nazis (their party even has this guy https://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mp-pictured-hanging-out-with-hitler-loving-holocaust-denying-neo-nazi-at-brexit-event/ ). 

We should be standing up against the far right. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-lammy-tory-brexiteers-nazi-aprtheid-racist-immigration-erg-rees-mogg-a8869371.html%3famp

 

The tactics you refer to do not amount to the Nazi's Final Solution. They reflect a government out of touch with its people, who carry out iniquitous and heartless policies.

It's ironic that Lammy cites Churchill, who had decidedly racist views himself.

 

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2 minutes ago, Formby said:

The tactics you refer to do not amount to the Nazi's Final Solution. They reflect a government out of touch with its people, who carry out iniquitous and heartless policies.

It's ironic that Lammy cites Churchill, who had decidedly racist views himself.

 

In Churchill’s life time nearly everyone had the same views and racism wasn’t on the agenda. 

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3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The Nazi’s were a political party from the early 30s voted in by the people of Germany, not started just for the the extinction of the Jews and any other race or religion Hitler didn’t like. 
The first concentration camps opened in 1933 for political opponents they were work camps not death camps, though I’m sure many died in them none the less, things changed in 1939 when Hitler and his inner circle put the SS in charge of the camps to systematically kill Jews homosexuals Romany gypsies and other groups they believed should be exterminated. 
But the vast majority of Germans who voted for the the far right Nazi party were unaware what was happening in these camps because it wasn’t general knowledge. 
So a Nazi isn’t automatically someone who was part of the SS killing machine they are in the main people who voted for a far right party. 
The thing is everyone one who voted them in power cannot be held responsible for the fact that there leaders turned out to be  psychopathic monsters who had built themselves a private army in the SS to carry out their orders, an army of killers who struck fear in their own countrymen. 
Since when has it been illegal to call someone a Nazi in this country, and is deleting freedom of speech because it doesn’t sit well with you not the actions of far right parties. 

Is Pete comparing the Tory Party to Germans who belonged to the Nazi Party and didn't know what was going on? I certainly didn't read it that way. I presumed it was to the 'SS killing machine'.

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3 minutes ago, Formby said:

Is Pete comparing the Tory Party to Germans who belonged to the Nazi Party and didn't know what was going on? I certainly didn't read it that way. I presumed it was to the 'SS killing machine'.

This is why it’s all getting out of control and in all honesty Pete may have meant what you thought, and if he did then that is indefensible and I don’t know anyone who could defend that. 

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5 minutes ago, johnh said:

And the Mod's are asleep at the wheel.

A mod posted this and has explained exactly what will happen and is completely aware. I only didn’t do it immediately because a rant like mine will always cause a response. 

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Personally I think references to the nazi party are rhetorical; just people making a point. Plainly there's no comparison to the consequence of what the government are doing to what Hitler did in reality but it's just holding up a mirror. I've mentioned before that my mother-in-law was one of the "kindertransport" in 1939 and my wife (and consequently my kids) had relatives who died in Auschwitz and Theresienstadt.

The comparisons for me are exaggerated, but I really don't think personally they should be shut down; anyone who disagrees (like Matt) is free to make their point.

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2 hours ago, Formby said:

The tactics you refer to do not amount to the Nazi's Final Solution. They reflect a government out of touch with its people, who carry out iniquitous and heartless policies.

It's ironic that Lammy cites Churchill, who had decidedly racist views himself.

 

They both kill innocent people in cruel ways. Both used facism/racism/fear and propaganda to get into power. So because tories only kill poor people that makes them different?

Doesn't take away from his point, you know that we should stand up and stop the cruelty. 

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4 hours ago, Matt said:

Isn’t it obvious?! The Nazis hunted people, murdered by the millions directly. The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil but they’re still a million miles from Hitlers regime and ideal. The affront is the complete ignorance of the events and lack of respect for those that died to defend freedom. 

I did say I’d delete nazi references, without deliberation, so 1 reply each with that reference then I’ll start deleting 

The tories and their voters are starving people to death. I don't know enough about how much the average German voter would have known about what Hitler was doing but our population is well aware of consequences of austerity (and NHS under funding) given the last decade. 

To call tories greedy is downplaying the absolute cruelty of what they're willing to sacrifice for their wealth i.e. the poor/working class. 

2 hours ago, Formby said:

Is Pete comparing the Tory Party to Germans who belonged to the Nazi Party and didn't know what was going on? I certainly didn't read it that way. I presumed it was to the 'SS killing machine'.

I've not mentioned the SS. 

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14 minutes ago, Matt said:

 OK. This went as exactly as expected sadly. Closed.  

Not the right thing to do. Apologies for the reactionary comment

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17 hours ago, Matt said:

The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil

Honestly, when it comes to the politics of human morality you are the equivalent of a climate change denier. How many times does the science of why some people are liberal and why some are conservative and why it's important for the group as whole have to be pointed out before you reflect on how stupid it is to think half the population are evil because they don;t share your political views?

You can't pick and choose the science you believe, truth is truth. Conservatives are not evil, they have different priorities.

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Just remembered why I stopped reading the political threads. 
 

I still remember the good old days at the beginning of the decade when the government at the time threw cash at everything. They were glory days. Until the economy crashed and there was no money left. 
 

I have no political leaning, I don’t care which party is in power as long as the population is taken care of. I don’t remember a single government who didn’t fuck up. I don’t think a single one has been intentionally cruel, though the outcome of their actions have no doubt been felt that way, the problem with the human race is we all think we are doing the right thing. 

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

Honestly, when it comes to the politics of human morality you are the equivalent of a climate change denier. How many times does the science of why some people are liberal and why some are conservative and why it's important for the group as whole have to be pointed out before you reflect on how stupid it is to think half the population are evil because they don;t share your political views?

You can't pick and choose the science you believe, truth is truth. Conservatives are not evil, they have different priorities.

You can educate yourself. Stephen Fry gives a great explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional that someone put on here. 

Any how care to stop picking and choosing what you respond to? 

22 hours ago, pete0 said:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

I'll add another. What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do?

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

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43 minutes ago, StevO said:

Just remembered why I stopped reading the political threads. 
 

I still remember the good old days at the beginning of the decade when the government at the time threw cash at everything. They were glory days. Until the economy crashed and there was no money left. 
 

I have no political leaning, I don’t care which party is in power as long as the population is taken care of. I don’t remember a single government who didn’t fuck up. I don’t think a single one has been intentionally cruel, though the outcome of their actions have no doubt been felt that way, the problem with the human race is we all think we are doing the right thing. 

Send me some of what you’re on Steve. 

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3 hours ago, StevO said:

. I don’t think a single one has been intentionally cruel, though the outcome of their actions have no doubt been felt that way, the problem with the human race is we all think we are doing the right thing. 

What evidence is there in history to support austerity? 

Add to that the unfunding of the NHS and treatment of their staff. 

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41 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What evidence is there in history to support austerity? 

Add to that the unfunding of the NHS and treatment of their staff. 

There may be no evidence to support austerity, but there can’t be much evidence to say keep increasing debt I’m sure. 
 

You honestly think that they would reduce spending so people die? You actually think that is the plan of the government? To kill people?


I’m not trying to defend their policies by the way. But the idea that there are actual evil people in power in this country who want people to die and actively create policy to make that happen is just daft to me. 
 

The UK is two trillion pounds in debt, two trillion. I can’t even get my head around that number. We are paying billions per annum in interest alone. This isn’t a problem that happened just since this Tory government got into power. It’s been getting worse for a long time. I don’t know how to fix it, or how they split the money they have between health care, emergency services, education, I’d hate to be the guy deciding who gets what. There are no winners.
 

Do we all fancy paying more tax to help get more money to these services? 
 

I don’t know the answer, I don’t want to defend anyone, but every government for at least the last two decades hasn’t managed to make this better, regardless of the colour of their tie.
 

I’m pretty sure if any of them asked us all to pay 30% VAT it would go down like a lead balloon. We don’t want to pay more duty on fuel or alcohol. We want to pay less tax and national insurance. I don’t see how they can get more money in without taking it off us all. Again, impossible situation. Why would anyone want to be PM?

I don’t want this to seem like I think anyone is doing a good job or like I think the NHS is well funded. Quite the opposite as my wife is living through the current sleepless nights that her and her colleagues in the NHS are all going through, whilst four months pregnant. She could do with an extra few quid in her pocket for the stress. 

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2 hours ago, StevO said:

There may be no evidence to support austerity, but there can’t be much evidence to say keep increasing debt I’m sure. 

Austerity hasn't reduced debt, debt has doubled under the tories. You said no one has been intentionally cruel yet present no evidence to show austerity is anything other. 

You honestly think that they would reduce spending so people die? You actually think that is the plan of the government? To kill people?

Clear as day isn't it. Given what they've done with health and benefit spending is it not  inevitable that more people will die. What are we getting in return for those deaths? Debt hasn't gone down, it's doubled and poverty is rife. 


I’m not trying to defend their policies by the way. But the idea that there are actual evil people in power in this country who want people to die and actively create policy to make that happen is just daft to me. 
 

isn't that exactly what their policies have done. 10 years ago I'd never heard of a food bank yet today people are commiting suicide as they can't afford to feed their families.  This is a consequence to tory policy and completely unjustifiable. 

The UK is two trillion pounds in debt, two trillion. I can’t even get my head around that number. We are paying billions per annum in interest alone. This isn’t a problem that happened just since this Tory government got into power. It’s been getting worse for a long time. I don’t know how to fix it, or how they split the money they have between health care, emergency services, education, I’d hate to be the guy deciding who gets what. There are no winners.
 

The rich have tripled their wealth in the last decade. It'd help if we closed loopholes and taxed them. It'd also help if we had better workers rights, pay, and affordable houses. The average persons disposable income is buttons compared to the other top European countries because our government has let companies exploit the workers. Should nationalise public services too which unnecessarily eat at the common man's disposable income as their ran for profit (profit that is under taxed and bled out of the country). 

Do we all fancy paying more tax to help get more money to these services? 

All day. 

I don’t know the answer, I don’t want to defend anyone, but every government for at least the last two decades hasn’t managed to make this better, regardless of the colour of their tie.

I can only go from Blair onwards but it has been very much worse and worse. Bills are higher, travel costs are higher, housing is higher, rents are crippling, and real wages are lower. 

I’m pretty sure if any of them asked us all to pay 30% VAT it would go down like a lead balloon. We don’t want to pay more duty on fuel or alcohol. We want to pay less tax and national insurance. I don’t see how they can get more money in without taking it off us all. Again, impossible situation. Why would anyone want to be PM?

Already covered this above but in short they should charge more corporation tax and encourage firms to pay higher wages (which results in more PAYE being collected). Regarding VAT I'd happily abolish it and just increase corporation tax. 

I don’t want this to seem like I think anyone is doing a good job or like I think the NHS is well funded. Quite the opposite as my wife is living through the current sleepless nights that her and her colleagues in the NHS are all going through, whilst four months pregnant. She could do with an extra few quid in her pocket for the stress. 

She deserves better pay full stop. At the moment though all key workers should be given more. (I've heard a few of the supermarkets have promised uplifts and bonuses).  

 

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Putting VAT up to 30% would just make the poor poorer, austerity didn’t work because they took the money from the people and lavished it on big businesses. 
What any government should do in any country is say that every pound of profit made by any company should have to pay the tax on it in the country it was made, not be allowed to register there companies in the Cayman Islands and send there profits to off shore accounts. 
Companies like Amazon are destroying jobs in this country turning over billions of pounds here and paying very little in tax and making a very few mega rich. 
Put corporation tax up by 5% put income tax up for those on 40% to 45% and had 1% on top of the brackets below the 40%.
But don’t do what the Tories have been doing for 10 years, cutting services and help to those who must need it, to give companies huge tax breaks.  

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The WHO demand politicalisation of the Covid 19 virus after Trump attacks, that’s what should happen it is most definitely a political issue even though some on here say it isn’t, so keep fighting Pete your doing everyone a service by bringing the failures of this government to people’s attention, even though some deny it or don’t like it. 
The the truth is the Tories have fucked up not just in the last 3 month but the last 10 years. 

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On 07/04/2020 at 19:54, MikeO said:

Personally I think references to the nazi party are rhetorical; just people making a point. Plainly there's no comparison to the consequence of what the government are doing to what Hitler did in reality but it's just holding up a mirror. I've mentioned before that my mother-in-law was one of the "kindertransport" in 1939 and my wife (and consequently my kids) had relatives who died in Auschwitz and Theresienstadt.

The comparisons for me are exaggerated, but I really don't think personally they should be shut down; anyone who disagrees (like Matt) is free to make their point.

Can't believe I just read the above post.   'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' -  please explain how that is rhetorical?    At least 'being asleep at the wheel' would be a feeble excuse.

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

The WHO demand politicalisation of the Covid 19 virus after Trump attacks, that’s what should happen it is most definitely a political issue even though some on here say it isn’t, so keep fighting Pete your doing everyone a service by bringing the failures of this government to people’s attention, even though some deny it or don’t like it. 
The the truth is the Tories have fucked up not just in the last 3 month but the last 10 years. 

Who denied it or didn’t like it?

Ive not seen that in here. 

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1 hour ago, StevO said:

Who denied it or didn’t like it?

Ive not seen that in here. 

People are dying due to the measures the Tories brought in, a vast majority of Tories who are doing well refuse to see it or even consider it as fact, go to a web site called full fact they are an independent charity with no axe to grind on any political parties they just relay facts and true figures. 
One fact is now 33% of children now live in families under the poverty line, and 22% of those children are material starved meaning they are going hungry and cold and don’t have adequate clothes or shoes to wear, that’s children under this government who for no thought of their own are becoming a forgotten generation by the Tories who are doing very well thanks, and every year they pull the ladder further up. 
Have a look at suicide in creases and the main reasons, have a look at disability and people been made to feel like beggars where their disability aid is stopped but their disability hasn’t gone away. 
Have a Look at the stats on pensioners dying because they are to scared to put the heating on. 
I say fuck the Tories fuck all of them they voted for this party led by the far right wing of the party, they voted from the misery caused to the weakest in our society, and the money was there to make it a fairer society but it was given to those who didn’t need it to become richer than there dreams, by getting inducements and paying little tax, and the Tories wear that as a badge of honour we are not the party that taxes, no you’re not bravo but just look at damage you have caused in the last 10 years something to be really proud of.

 

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2 hours ago, Palfy said:

People are dying due to the measures the Tories brought in, a vast majority of Tories who are doing well refuse to see it or even consider it as fact, go to a web site called full fact they are an independent charity with no axe to grind on any political parties they just relay facts and true figures. 
One fact is now 33% of children now live in families under the poverty line, and 22% of those children are material starved meaning they are going hungry and cold and don’t have adequate clothes or shoes to wear, that’s children under this government who for no thought of their own are becoming a forgotten generation by the Tories who are doing very well thanks, and every year they pull the ladder further up. 
Have a look at suicide in creases and the main reasons, have a look at disability and people been made to feel like beggars where their disability aid is stopped but their disability hasn’t gone away. 
Have a Look at the stats on pensioners dying because they are to scared to put the heating on. 
I say fuck the Tories fuck all of them they voted for this party led by the far right wing of the party, they voted from the misery caused to the weakest in our society, and the money was there to make it a fairer society but it was given to those who didn’t need it to become richer than there dreams, by getting inducements and paying little tax, and the Tories wear that as a badge of honour we are not the party that taxes, no you’re not bravo but just look at damage you have caused in the last 10 years something to be really proud of.

 

I just asked who denied it or didn’t like it in here. As I’ve not seen that from anyone.  

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5 hours ago, johnh said:

Can't believe I just read the above post.   'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' -  please explain how that is rhetorical?    At least 'being asleep at the wheel' would be a feeble excuse.

I said that references to the nazi party are, in my opinion, rhetorical (or at least should be). 'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' makes no reference to the nazi party.

As I've said I don't agree with comparisons to Hitler because there is no comparison but it's also undeniable, again in my opinion formed by looking at the evidence, that austerity has caused people to die so I can understand people being upset at the party responsible for it.

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12 minutes ago, StevO said:

I just asked who denied it or didn’t like it in here. As I’ve not seen that from anyone.  

You don’t believe that by making the cuts they have they have knowingly contributed to people’s deaths, I strongly believe they did know that slashing the health and welfare budget to increase tax perks for companies and the rich would lead to deaths, so are we to believe that they didn’t do there homework and let them off the hook, or do we believe they ran the model and ignored the consequences, I strongly believe the latter. 

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7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

You don’t believe that by making the cuts they have they have knowingly contributed to people’s deaths, I strongly believe they did know that slashing the health and welfare budget to increase tax perks for companies and the rich would lead to deaths, so are we to believe that they didn’t do there homework and let them off the hook, or do we believe they ran the model and ignored the consequences, I strongly believe the latter. 

I didn’t say that Palfy. I don’t believe they did anything to intentionally make people die. I agree that the cuts have led to deaths, but I don’t believe that was anyone’s intention. I believe everyone makes decisions based on what they think is right, I don’t believe anyone in power in this country sat there thinking “let’s kill a few people”. They will be judges on the mistakes they have been made, and rightly so, when you get to offices of that height your mistakes have massive consequences and they will have to deal with that. I just don’t think it’s premeditated murder.

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4 minutes ago, StevO said:

I didn’t say that Palfy. I don’t believe they did anything to intentionally make people die. I agree that the cuts have led to deaths, but I don’t believe that was anyone’s intention. I believe everyone makes decisions based on what they think is right, I don’t believe anyone in power in this country sat there thinking “let’s kill a few people”. They will be judges on the mistakes they have been made, and rightly so, when you get to offices of that height your mistakes have massive consequences and they will have to deal with that. I just don’t think it’s premeditated murder.

We’re go with manslaughter as a minimum  then, look I don’t believe they sat around a table like Hitler and his inner circle and said this is who we are going to exterminate and this is how we are going to do it. 
I think they made decisions knowing that those decisions would ultimately lead to death for some, and the cynic in me is nearly making me believe that the biggest problem for the Tories is the welfare budget, and what a good way to reduce it by coming up with ideas to reducing it by making it inevitable that those who need go to there graves earlier than necessary, a bit far fetched I know but I wouldn’t put it past them. 

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36 minutes ago, Palfy said:

We’re go with manslaughter as a minimum  then, look I don’t believe they sat around a table like Hitler and his inner circle and said this is who we are going to exterminate and this is how we are going to do it. 
I think they made decisions knowing that those decisions would ultimately lead to death for some, and the cynic in me is nearly making me believe that the biggest problem for the Tories is the welfare budget, and what a good way to reduce it by coming up with ideas to reducing it by making it inevitable that those who need go to there graves earlier than necessary, a bit far fetched I know but I wouldn’t put it past them. 

I get where you’re coming from mate, I really do. I just don’t think it’s as black and white as that. I don’t honestly don’t think it would be any different if another party got in either. They are all interested in the votes and the power, but I think none of them will ever get it right. They will think they are doing right, but then the really hard decisions get blundered a bit to save votes. As I said a few posts back, who would want to be PM? It’s a job where no one wins. 

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1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I said that references to the nazi party are, in my opinion, rhetorical (or at least should be). 'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' makes no reference to the nazi party.

As I've said I don't agree with comparisons to Hitler because there is no comparison but it's also undeniable, again in my opinion formed by looking at the evidence, that austerity has caused people to die so I can understand people being upset at the party responsible for it.

Short memory.  Why was austerity necessary?  Labour were at least honest and left their infamous note in the Treasury -  'There is no money left'.  Every Labour Government since WW2 has destroyed the economy, Gordon Brown did a better job than most.

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12 minutes ago, johnh said:

Short memory.  Why was austerity necessary?  Labour were at least honest and left their infamous note in the Treasury -  'There is no money left'.  Every Labour Government since WW2 has destroyed the economy, Gordon Brown did a better job than most.

Sorry John but I think you're moving the goalposts. Also unless my mind is playing tricks you've said on here that you've voted Labour in the past. Why if they're so bad? Personally I've never voted Tory or Labour in any election in my life, be it local, national or European. I sleep well with that.

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11 minutes ago, johnh said:

Short memory.  Why was austerity necessary?  Labour were at least honest and left their infamous note in the Treasury -  'There is no money left'.  Every Labour Government since WW2 has destroyed the economy, Gordon Brown did a better job than most.

So what has austerity done to help? 

Labour didn't destroy the economy, the American loan crisis did. The economy was naturally going to bounce back yet our scum bags running the country used it as an excuse to exploit the poor. Rich people have doubled their wealth on the back of low taxes and poor working rights/wages. Meanwhile the UK debt has doubled! You can't justify that party. They wouldn't need to spout 88% falsehoods to get in power if they actually ran the county properly.

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57 minutes ago, pete0 said:

 They wouldn't need to spout 88% falsehoods to get in power if they actually ran the county properly.

I don't think running the country properly enters their thinking, though. Not one for citing Peter Hitchens too often (more impressed with his late brother) but I did think he was right when he said the Conservative Party was not conservative at all, but a machine for obtaining power. I would go further than that, and say it is a machine geared for maintaining power. I think this has become a huge problem in politics, generally.

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On 07/04/2020 at 21:41, pete0 said:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

I don't need to present any evidence, you are the one making claims that the government is responsible for everyones poor health choices. Then when the holes are pointed out in you argument you just move the goal posts and say I have to provide evidence.

Try and be honest or all your posts will be ignored.

On 08/04/2020 at 20:39, pete0 said:

You can educate yourself. Stephen Fry gives a great explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional that someone put on here. 

That video is a very simplified take on moral foundations theory, being the origins of morality and how it affects our politics which I have been espousing the whole time, not an "explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional"

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28 minutes ago, Chach said:

I don't need to present any evidence, you are the one making claims that the government is responsible for everyones poor health choices. Then when the holes are pointed out in you argument you just move the goal posts and say I have to provide evidence.

Try and be honest or all your posts will be ignored.

That video is a very simplified take on moral foundations theory, being the origins of morality and how it affects our politics which I have been espousing the whole time, not an "explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional"

What an absolute tory politician response this is. Fucking embarrassing. 

One, you've just rambled without giving a response to a very simple question. How many more deaths? 

Two, you've then deflected saying you've already picked holes(three, superior complex) and that I need to be honest (again deflecting, but I'll call this number four, you're dishonest; will lie and try to drag down an opponent rather than rise above them with an argument).

All I've asked is for how many and some evidence. Not hard is it. Show me were you've already picked holes or admit you're a liar with a brain that has an over active fearful section that makes you less able to make a well informed unbiased decision. 

Now for the cherry on top. Number five, in true fascist fashion you've actually took the time to delete part of quote rather than address it. Says a lot about your ideals when you can't even answer a question asking what good your ideals bring. 

I'll add another. What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do?

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

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15 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What an absolute tory politician response this is. Fucking embarrassing. 

One, you've just rambled without giving a response to a very simple question. How many more deaths? 

Two, you've then deflected saying you've already picked holes(three, superior complex) and that I need to be honest (again deflecting, but I'll call this number four, you're dishonest; will lie and try to drag down an opponent rather than rise above them with an argument).

All I've asked is for how many and some evidence. Not hard is it. Show me were you've already picked holes or admit you're a liar with a brain that has an over active fearful section that makes you less able to make a well informed unbiased decision. 

Now for the cherry on top. Number five, in true fascist fashion you've actually took the time to delete part of quote rather than address it. Says a lot about your ideals when you can't even answer a question asking what good your ideals bring. 

I'll add another. What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do?

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

Have never voted for a conservative government in my 28 years of voting, being left wing doesn't mean you have to misrepresent the nature or ideas of your political opponents. which is primarily your modus operandi.

You've literally just accused me of being a fascist because I never addressed all of the parts of your post that you wanted me to. Do you think that's balanced Pete?

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19 minutes ago, Chach said:

Have never voted for a conservative government in my 28 years of voting, being left wing doesn't mean you have to misrepresent the nature or ideas of your political opponents. which is primarily your modus operandi.

You've literally just accused me of being a fascist because I never addressed all of the parts of your post that you wanted me to. Do you think that's balanced Pete?

You've still not responsed. Why are you finding it so hard to answer a simple question? 

Voting tory or not you still share their disgusting ideals. Again you're deflecting. You as a person absolutely disgust me. How have misrepresentated? Quote were I have and give an explanation and whilst you're at it quote we've you've already picked holes in my arguments, that or apologise for being the nasty little manipulative liar you are. 

How is it unbalanced? I've explained everything yet you can't even give straight forward answers. 

For the fifth(?) time:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

 

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19 hours ago, pete0 said:

You've still not responsed. Why are you finding it so hard to answer a simple question? 

Voting tory or not you still share their disgusting ideals. Again you're deflecting. You as a person absolutely disgust me. How have misrepresentated? Quote were I have and give an explanation and whilst you're at it quote we've you've already picked holes in my arguments, that or apologise for being the nasty little manipulative liar you are. 

How is it unbalanced? I've explained everything yet you can't even give straight forward answers. 

For the fifth(?) time:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

 

You should consider logging off for a bit Pete, you're getting a but deranged.

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3 hours ago, Chach said:

You should consider logging off for a bit Pete, you're getting a but deranged.

Why aren't you answering? Is it because you've just realised how disgusting your views are or have you known all along and just ashamed to defend them? 

Edit: @Chach you got any evidence to back up that deranged comment or you gonna apologise for the fearful part of the brain getting over active and you not being strong enough to fight your instincts?

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