The anti-Moyes Bandwagon

[Louis]

Why is it all of a sudden gathering moment? I admit the latest run of form is not the most inspiring but does no one else see what DM has done for the club, it wasn't so long ago that he pulled us from bootstraps up out of the relegation zone. If he had sufficient backing I am confident that he will be a success at Everton so why are people out for blood? Is it just because they are bored having some stability within in the management?

[GoldfishMemory]

Why is it all of a sudden gathering moment? I admit the latest run of form is not the most inspiring but does no one else see what DM has done for the club, it wasn't so long ago that he pulled us from bootstraps up out of the relegation zone. If he had sufficient backing I am confident that he will be a success at Everton so why are people out for blood? Is it just because they are bored having some stability within in the management?

 

Its a kopite attitude IMO.

 

Moyes pulled us out the shit and lifted us further than anyone else has been capable of in the past 20 years, thats Kendall, Harvey, Walker, Royle & Smith (not exactly a bunch of no-mark slackers)!

 

I hate the boo boys, I hate when they turn on my team, I hate when they turn on my manager and I ask them all if you're all, all knowing then whats the fuckin answer without using the term "bring someone in". Havent found one yet who can answer so get off his back he has restored alot of pride in the blue half of Merseyside whatever direction you look at it from!

[ooberman]

i can understand it - but I don't agree with it. put simply, everyone's a bit bored of mediocrity, and this season we had the opportunity to turn a corner and become a top 6 team that everyone recognises year in/year out. sadly, we're just not killing off games we should be winning! and now we've lost cahill for a while, it's adding to the fear of being average still!!

[Romey 1878]

We're only 12 games into the season there is still plenty of time for us to secure Europe if we sort ourselves out. I dont agree with people jumping on Moyes' back, its not right after what he's done for our club. I mean there is no manager who could have done what he has with the amount of money he's been given.

 

Bluekipper is full of gobshites wanting Moyes out, I just cant understand it.

[thebluenose]

ive noticed that too mark.

 

i dont understand why people say moyes should go. im only 16 and the shit i had to endure since following Everton in the 90's (except the FA cup). moyes has made feel better as an evertonian.

 

i know he hasnt won anything with us but at least he has turned us from a team who thought finishing above 15th was a good season. to being disappointed when we dont win a place in europe. that is progress.

[Bill]

I havent seen anybody on here having a go at MOYSEY.

[StevO]

thats because we are the thinking evertonians

[Ian]

I havent seen anybody on here having a go at MOYSEY.

 

No me neither, I didnt understand when I first read the title of this.

 

If they are they, like Liam said, have a Kopite attitude. The first sign of trouble we should not call for blood, its pointless and also embarrasing as its the same people who will be calling for him to have a knighthood when we win a big game.

 

Its a bad run but everybody has them, keep behind the lads and the manager!!!

 

But saying that, i really havnt heard anyone asking for him to go

[Droobie]

None of it on here...

[Willo]

I think alot of people have very short memories .

 

I mean if you asked most of the knockers at the start of the season wether they would be happy 12 games in to see the Blues in 7th , above the RS ( all be it on goal diff ) and only 4 points behind Arsenal in 3rd then i think most would have taken that .

 

I think after the great start we have lost alot of momentum but 3 consecutive 1-0 defeats could very easily have been 3 one nil wins .

 

The loss of Cahill is a big blow but i think midfield is one of our strongest area's and we should have enough cover to see us good .

 

Things are not bleak in the slightest and if i here any talk of '' Moyes out '' from any so called Evertonian i have the misfortune to meet then i will publically berate them .

[bluegaz74]

"I think alot of people have very short memories ."

 

I can't understand it either. A bloke in the boozer after the Villa game on Saturday was ranting on about how Moyes was just a championship manager and how he didn't have a clue - was he saying that after the 3-0 Derby win? I doubt it. Some fan's are far to fickle.

[MikeO]

...if i here any talk of '' Moyes out '' from any so called Evertonian i have the misfortune to meet then i will publically berate them .

 

Very restrained Willo, thought you were going to say "batter" them .

 

Like has been said people have very short memories, expectations have been raised certainly...but they've been raised by DM himself so he's a victim of his own success.

 

In premier league matches in 2006 we've won twelve, drawn eleven and lost seven. But more importantly no-one has played us off the park and no-one expects to any more.

[HonestJohn]

I think it's more down to frustration as we have been in the shadows for so long now, but we have to admit the signs are there and we are improving all the time and given a bit more backing we all know we could be a regular top six side. One of my concerns though how long will the likes of Arteta wait ? and how can we attract better players if we are not a regular in europe ?

[Guest fozzie]

5 years is a hell of a long time in management,ask iain dowie.

 

I have big misgivings about moyes's abilty to take the club the next step on,this has nothing to do with the losses far from it i've been unhappy with him for a good 12 months or so,the club while stabalised are no neaerer to winning a trophy then the day he came.

 

Hi inabilty to turn things round on the pitch by use of subs and tactics has to be a concern to anyone who loves the club,he has a plan A,but never a plan B,so when things go tits up we struggle.

 

His signings too have to leave a lot to be desired,tef,BT davies,VDM and who can of course forget the fiasco of koldrup,i'll accept a couple of mistakes but when a club like ours has very little money to spend any mistake is a bloody costly one.

 

Its a frightening fact its been 19 years since we last won the league,bad management from that era to this has hampered all the managers who've come and gone and in that respect i do feel for him,but everytime he spends "big" he comes a cropper,maybe if he is stay for any period of time longer he should stick the leagues he knows best ie div 1 and 2 try to find the rough diamonds and polish them up.

 

There is an air of complacancy at the club i do find worrying,we seem to accept that top10-12 is good enough,this i feel comes from our own BK his lack of money and i mean real money will hamstring any manager for years to come.

 

So if i had to give DM a socre out of 10 it would be a 6,not bad but but could do a lot better.

[GoldfishMemory]

Dont want an argument fozzie but:

 

5 years is a hell of a long time in management,ask iain dowie.

 

However the managers given longer than the average have learned and created great things with their respective clubs, Ferguson with the now great Manchester United, Curbishly brought charlton from obscurity to premier league & Gradi has built one of the most consistant youth development systems in the country. Ferguson & Gradi have both been recognised by the state because they were trusted and allowed to build and learn.

I have big misgivings about moyes's abilty to take the club the next step on,this has nothing to do with the losses far from it i've been unhappy with him for a good 12 months or so,the club while stabalised are no neaerer to winning a trophy then the day he came.

 

The club is no nearer to winning silverwear but have begun bridging the mid table gap (which is massive) and are miles further away from relagation than they were when Moyes got here.

 

Hi inabilty to turn things round on the pitch by use of subs and tactics has to be a concern to anyone who loves the club,he has a plan A,but never a plan B,so when things go tits up we struggle.

 

I have to agree on this point, all I can say in his defence is he is learning. If that is enough is a whole other question.

His signings too have to leave a lot to be desired,tef,BT davies,VDM and who can of course forget the fiasco of koldrup,i'll accept a couple of mistakes but when a club like ours has very little money to spend any mistake is a bloody costly one.

Some signings yes, but Cahill, Arteta, Johnson, Lescott & Howard have been inspired and personally I love the way he just wont spend unless the right players are available anymore. Burnt his fingers a few times and again learned his lesson and lets be honest we would have all taken a punt on VDM before he actually got here.

 

Its a frightening fact its been 19 years since we last won the league,bad management from that era to this has hampered all the managers who've come and gone and in that respect i do feel for him,but everytime he spends "big" he comes a cropper,maybe if he is stay for any period of time longer he should stick the leagues he knows best ie div 1 and 2 try to find the rough diamonds and polish them up.

Agreed although Johnson has bucked the trend, bear in mind again Cahill & Lescott and also that Nugent has been on a plate for a few years now and he hasnt jumpped in with both feet but used his head to assess the situation.

There is an air of complacancy at the club i do find worrying,we seem to accept that top10-12 is good enough,this i feel comes from our own BK his lack of money and i mean real money will hamstring any manager for years to come.

 

 

So if i had to give DM a socre out of 10 it would be a 6,not bad but but could do a lot better.

 

I would be interested to see in comparison what you would give Walker, Royle, Kendall & Smith out of 10 & also who if anyone you think is/could be the saviour?

 

Again I'm not after an argument just offering up the flip side.

Edited November 15, 2006 by GoldfishMemory

[MikeO]

Just wondering how many managers...and who...have this elusive ability to switch to a plan B? Wenger certainly didn't have it against us a couple of weeks ago and I don't know really what it is. Did Ferguson have it at Southend? Sven never had it for England though McLaren's managed some incredible Euro turnarounds with 'Boro in the recent past. With the first goal being so often decisive in modern footie (you very rarely see a team coming from behind to win in the prem these days) I think it's getting the tactics right from the start that matters, and I think DM does that more often than not.

[Bill]

Again no arguments here just thought i'd add my two pennyworth on the subject.

 

 

"" lets be honest we would have all taken a punt on VDM before he actually got here.""

..

 

NO, i wouldnt, it only needed some schoolboy checks to discover he was never going to be any good.

 

 

""Johnson has bucked the trend, bear in mind again Cahill & Lescott and also that Nugent has been on a plate for a few years now, and he hasnt jumpped in with both feet but used his head to assess the situation.""

..

 

Just to emphasize the fact that AJ for £8m and Lescot for £5m should be bloody good players for that price, and remember we only copped for Cahill because simon Jordan pulled the deal, it was a massive stroke of luck that we ended up getting him. And while he hasnt jumped in with both feet for Nugent, we have seen the transfer fee rise from £1m to the latest figure being bounced about of £5m.

 

 

But overall i'm moderately pleased how things are going at the Club, and i wouldnt look to be changing Managers.. We have possibly the best squad of players we have had since the heady days of the 80s, and have made some inroads into what was a hefty deficit for this Club.

 

So with having to split any income between lowering the deficit and providing transfer fees, it may take us a bit longer yet befor we can challenge the top 4 on a regular basis.

[GoldfishMemory]

How dare you question my all knowing viewpoint

 

Licker Fishman

 

[Mac]

Now don't shoot me down for this folks, but.................

 

I like the way the club is going at the moment, I understand that everyone has the right to their opinion and the obvious figurehead should take the flak (and rightly so).

 

I am not simply sitting on the fence here people, but this club of ours means more to me than anything outside of my family, so I don't take this lightly when I say this.

 

I am happy and confident that we are a club who is going places, my example is this - a few years ago we would have been over the moon with our current position at this time of year, but the fact some people are getting antsy is proof positive that we expect more and better from the team. We are members of a great fraternity/sorority as Evertonians and TT' ers, let's enjoy things as they are, because I can remember so many relegation battles and I am bouyed up by this current crop and their attitude to wearing the Blue shirt.

 

ATB

 

Mac

[Guest fozzie]

I only offer a different viewpoint,theres nothing wrong with that..its healthy

 

And fishy i will answer your well thought out points after.

 

Walker 3 out of 10

 

Royle 7 out of 10

 

Howard 5 out of 10 (not the first time of course)

 

Smith 5 out of 10,

 

And yes given the drivel Smith served up DM is a lot better.

[saso]

George Graham said in an interview the key to management is to not achieve anything that you can not repeat. That is the sin Moyes has committed in so many peoples eyes, Champions league football and finishing above Liverpool. This was never going to be something that was regularly achieved at Everton, and for that reason Moyes suffers the fate GG said you should never get yourself in. Moyes is the best thing to happen to Everton for a long time, the fact the supporters have to be above the madding crowd, is the cost of overachieving.

 

There are 3 concepts managers are judged by. Tactical ability, this one is a complete myth, fans of any club now or from the past always argue about team selection and substitutions. There are no great tactical managers[ The tulip revolution guy might be and the Hungarian 4 3 3 and German sweeper system] Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal fans question the manager and think he should have done X over Y. That is the game, managers make decisions when they come off they are great when not they are crap.

 

Motivating the players; Getting the most out of the players the manager has, Moyes is at least a 9 out of 10 at that, he has got great performances out of average players again and again.

 

Buying players; After Wenger Moyes record in the transfer market is the second best, he has bought countless players at miles bellow their real value. His record in the transfer market is fantastic. He has made mistakes, but there is a fantastic buy to balance it out. Moyes has a great transfer record, those that dislike him can not accept it, but he is miles in the black on transfers and there are very few manager who can say that.

[StevO]

we are only miles in the black because of Rooney, Moyes has had good buys in the market, but he is not second to Wenger. his good have been great his bad have been a joke! i still like the guy thou

[saso]

we are only miles in the black because of Rooney, Moyes has had good buys in the market, but he is not second to Wenger. his good have been great his bad have been a joke! i still like the guy thou

 

 

Who is better??????????? The players Moyes bought with the Rooney money are worth more then was spent, Moyes is miles in the black on transfers. After Wenger he is miles above the rest, you might not like him, but that is the truth. If Everton sold all the players Moyes bought tomorrow he would be massively in the black, and other then Wenger there is not another manager who could say that.

[Guest fozzie]

Moyes wasted the rooney money,VDM koldrup,davies and bt where/are not good buys..not by a long chalk

 

And to compare him to Wenger is a bit silly tbh

[Guest fozzie]

Dont want an argument fozzie but:

 

5 years is a hell of a long time in management,ask iain dowie.

 

However the managers given longer than the average have learned and created great things with their respective clubs, Ferguson with the now great Manchester United, Curbishly brought charlton from obscurity to premier league & Gradi has built one of the most consistant youth development systems in the country. Ferguson & Gradi have both been recognised by the state because they were trusted and allowed to build and learn.

I have big misgivings about moyes's abilty to take the club the next step on,this has nothing to do with the losses far from it i've been unhappy with him for a good 12 months or so,the club while stabalised are no neaerer to winning a trophy then the day he came.

 

The club is no nearer to winning silverwear but have begun bridging the mid table gap (which is massive) and are miles further away from relagation than they were when Moyes got here.

 

Hi inabilty to turn things round on the pitch by use of subs and tactics has to be a concern to anyone who loves the club,he has a plan A,but never a plan B,so when things go tits up we struggle.

 

I have to agree on this point, all I can say in his defence is he is learning. If that is enough is a whole other question.

His signings too have to leave a lot to be desired,tef,BT davies,VDM and who can of course forget the fiasco of koldrup,i'll accept a couple of mistakes but when a club like ours has very little money to spend any mistake is a bloody costly one.

Some signings yes, but Cahill, Arteta, Johnson, Lescott & Howard have been inspired and personally I love the way he just wont spend unless the right players are available anymore. Burnt his fingers a few times and again learned his lesson and lets be honest we would have all taken a punt on VDM before he actually got here.

 

Its a frightening fact its been 19 years since we last won the league,bad management from that era to this has hampered all the managers who've come and gone and in that respect i do feel for him,but everytime he spends "big" he comes a cropper,maybe if he is stay for any period of time longer he should stick the leagues he knows best ie div 1 and 2 try to find the rough diamonds and polish them up.

Agreed although Johnson has bucked the trend, bear in mind again Cahill & Lescott and also that Nugent has been on a plate for a few years now and he hasnt jumpped in with both feet but used his head to assess the situation.

There is an air of complacancy at the club i do find worrying,we seem to accept that top10-12 is good enough,this i feel comes from our own BK his lack of money and i mean real money will hamstring any manager for years to come.

So if i had to give DM a socre out of 10 it would be a 6,not bad but but could do a lot better.

 

I would be interested to see in comparison what you would give Walker, Royle, Kendall & Smith out of 10 & also who if anyone you think is/could be the saviour?

 

Again I'm not after an argument just offering up the flip side.

 

 

Point 1..fergie,gradi and curbs are very much the exception to the rule

 

Point 2 VDM as i said at the time was a waste of money but i fear the meddling hands of BK were in on that one..(think back to shrek summer..the fat bastard was in the papers then about how we where after him)

 

Point 3 when he jumped in for big money signings they have not really been up to scratch,i think you missed my point there Fish,he is good at spotting the players in the lower divisions,

 

Point 4 i stand by my marks out of 10..this shitty football we have seen over the past 15 years is a joke,we're light years away from winning anything of note (unless the big clubs come a cropper),this of course is down to the gross mis management of the club over the years.

 

I will stick my neck out and say this we wont win anything again this season and i cant see us qualifying for europe either,the squad is not strong enough to cope with injuries to key players.

 

I hope i'm wrong but i really cant see it any other way.

[GoldfishMemory]

Point 1..fergie,gradi and curbs are very much the exception to the rule

 

I accept that mate the angle i'm comming from is can you think of anyone else who has been given the time and the faith and not delivered?

 

I will stick my neck out and say this we wont win anything again this season and i cant see us qualifying for europe either,the squad is not strong enough to cope with injuries to key players.

 

I hope i'm wrong but i really cant see it any other way.

 

I agree with your thinking the majority of the time Foz' the thing I keep trying to hammer home to you and others (including my unlces every week) is that there are limited ways to bridge the gap in the mega bucks world of the premiership these days.

 

There is the Chelsea method, the Leeds method & (hear me out) the Everton method. I believe that although slow we have made progress team & business wise every year Moyes has been with us, this progress is sustainable and has taken us from thinking being clear of relagation by March / April was a god send to thinking bottom half is a desaster. I'l admit dreams of "top 6" may be the blue tinted glasses but the fact that its a remote possibility every season means in 5 years we have gone from relegation houdini artists to a half decent side.

 

I would love to be challenging and taking massive steps forward but as i'v said before I am happy with small steps and the new found optimism and expectation surounding the match. My match going experience has always been about dealing with defeat and pinching points to survive so i'm relieved that is over and optimistic it will never return.

[StevO]

Who is better??????????? The players Moyes bought with the Rooney money are worth more then was spent, Moyes is miles in the black on transfers. After Wenger he is miles above the rest, you might not like him, but that is the truth. If Everton sold all the players Moyes bought tomorrow he would be massively in the black, and other then Wenger there is not another manager who could say that.

 

first up, my last line in my previous post said "i still like the guy thou"

 

ok, a good manager on a budget? steve coppell, sam allardyce, paul jewell, curbishley

[bluegaz74]

There is the Chelsea method, the Leeds method & (hear me out) the Everton method. I believe that although slow we have made progress team & business wise every year Moyes has been with us, this progress is sustainable and has taken us from thinking being clear of relagation by March / April was a god send to thinking bottom half is a desaster. I'l admit dreams of "top 6" may be the blue tinted glasses but the fact that its a remote possibility every season means in 5 years we have gone from relegation houdini artists to a half decent side.

 

I would love to be challenging and taking massive steps forward but as i'v said before I am happy with small steps and the new found optimism and expectation surounding the match. My match going experience has always been about dealing with defeat and pinching points to survive so i'm relieved that is over and optimistic it will never return.

 

Couldn't agree with you more there Goldie. In this day and age it's a marathon not a sprint when looking for success in the top flight (apart from Chelsea of course) and I believe the club is slowly moving in the right direction. Why are we any different to any other club supporter in the Prem who will be saying exactly the same thing. Show me a supporter who will say they are completely happy with their club, whether it's the board, the team or the manager and I'll show you a liar! Clubs the size of Man Utd still gripe about the board, and they have more to worry about with the Glazers than we have with BK! How frustrated must the skunk supporters feel with the amount of money they have thrown at players over the last few years, with little or no success and if Abramovic gets bored with his little plaything, then that is Chelsea out of business overnight. We live in a throw away society these days that demands instant results, I'm sure Iain Dowie will vouch for that, but let's remember, Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

Not all Moyes buys have been great, but he has now got a decent foundation of a side that can mature into something special given time, some of Fergies buys have been stinkers, you can't get everything right all of the time.

 

There is the Chelsea method, the Leeds method & (hear me out) the Everton method. I believe that although slow we have made progress team & business wise every year Moyes has been with us, this progress is sustainable and has taken us from thinking being clear of relagation by March / April was a god send to thinking bottom half is a desaster. I'l admit dreams of "top 6" may be the blue tinted glasses but the fact that its a remote possibility every season means in 5 years we have gone from relegation houdini artists to a half decent side.

 

I would love to be challenging and taking massive steps forward but as i'v said before I am happy with small steps and the new found optimism and expectation surounding the match. My match going experience has always been about dealing with defeat and pinching points to survive so i'm relieved that is over and optimistic it will never return.

 

Couldn't agree with you more there Goldie. In this day and age it's a marathon not a sprint when looking for success in the top flight (apart from Chelsea of course) and I believe the club is slowly moving in the right direction. Why are we any different to any other club supporter in the Prem who will be saying exactly the same thing. Show me a supporter who will say they are completely happy with their club, whether it's the board, the team or the manager and I'll show you a liar! Clubs the size of Man Utd still gripe about the board, and they have more to worry about with the Glazers than we have with BK! How frustrated must the skunk supporters feel with the amount of money they have thrown at players over the last few years, with little or no success and if Abramovic gets bored with his little plaything, then that is Chelsea out of business overnight. We live in a throw away society these days that demands instant results, I'm sure Iain Dowie will vouch for that, but let's remember, Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

Not all Moyes buys have been great, but he has now got a decent foundation of a side that can mature into something special given time, some of Fergies buys have been stinkers, you can't get everything right all of the time.

[StevO]

just off topic a little, whats the united fans problem with the Glaziers? i think we have more to worry about with BK than they do. if a family of self made millionaires who have transformed small american sports teams into top of the pile teams in the past, then i'dbe more than happy to let them try it out with us

[CraccerC]

i've never been a big moyes fan, he gets the tactics wrong quite often, he has us playin very unattractive and fairly unsuccessful a lot of the time... and he is too loyal to players although this is starting to fade a little

 

and goldy i really don't see the chelsea and leeds thing

Edited November 17, 2006 by CraccerC