Hok: 55,000 Capacity Will Fit In Loop

[Louis]

Consultants HOK Sport working on behalf on Bestway and in conjunction with Liverpool City Council have come to an initial view that a 55,000 seat stadium could be accommodated on the site.

 

Early "concept proposals" show a development spanning the ramped loop road, which provides for pedestrian circulation to be safely accommodated around the stadium, as well as the necessary emergency access.

 

Some further site investigations are continuing in order to complete a more detailed report into this exciting stadium proposal at the site within the home of Everton. This represents a unique opportunity for the club, the supporters and the City as a whole.

[Bill]

I dont see how Everton can claim its not Big enough when its a 10 acre site as opposed to the 7 acres of G Park.

[blueglen]

I dont see how Everton can claim its not Big enough when its a 10 acre site as opposed to the 7 acres of G Park.

It is the company involved with the Kirkby move who state the loop site is too small... hmmmm... I smell a rat....

 

http://www.steerdaviesgleave.com/assets_cm...f/evertonfc.pdf

[MikeO]

I dont see how Everton can claim its not Big enough when its a 10 acre site as opposed to the 7 acres of G Park.

 

But Goodison doesn't need to accommodate....

 

..a stadium complete with an iconic sweeping tower structure.

The tower would help lend the site a landmark status and increase its visibility. The tower element will also provide a hotel, leisure facilities and other associated commercial uses.

 

I can see that it would be hard to add all that into an extra three acres.

[Bill]

Are you a Designer, Achitect, and Engineer by Proffesion then Mike I would tend to believe the people who know their business, so i'm assuming that HOK know a little more than you do.

No offence intended.

[RuffRob]

I hate giving to much away about myself - but I am actually a Engineer by proffesion, so do know a little about the constrution industry, especially large Civil projects.

 

And one thing I will tell you is that Architect's are renowned for coming up with things that look great on paper - (the 'pretty pictures' as we call them), but building them is usually another thing. What a Architect first proposes and what actually gets built when its looked at in detail are usually two seperate things, so I wouldn't hang on everyword HOK say.

 

You can't compare the site of the Goodison Site for the size of a new stadium - You would not belieive H&S requirments around a venue that could eventually hold up to 60,000 people. The likes of Goodison would never get build nowadays, your 7 arces for Goodison is a totally irrelevant argument to be honest.

 

But lets say you somehow manage to squeeze the stadium and hotel on to the site. You have to build the thing, in such a small space.

 

You have squeezed the footprint of the proposed structures on the site - Where are you laydown areas going to be? - Your cranage points?, material storage areas? - This is a massive structure - not a house extension, unless you know a little about construction of major project you will not appreciate how difficult it is to build such a massive structure in such a tight space and how much materials and deliveries you are going to have. You sit down with the plot in front of you and try and thing a construction sequence through.

 

Nothing is impossible, if you throw plenty of money at it - The biggest problem on building in such a tight spot is the logistics of the build - you programme of works will be extremely inflexable - i.e you can only have limited materials and resources on the site at any one time. When the is a glitch in the programme (and on this size project their will always be glitches) you have little scope to get on with something else. Which leads to the inevitable 'standing time' Basically, most of your workforce and plant on hire to being paid to stand around for the day doing nothing.

 

Materials are relatively cheap, labour is always has a huge cost, don't underestimate the cost of double handling!!!!!

 

Just becasue of the site logistics, building at Scotland Rd will mean it will be as an expensive as build as it could be for what you get at the end. Time due to traffic to and from the the site etc all have to be factored it. Time is money, whether you sitting in traffic of on site.

 

On another point - you have to get a Contractor to come and build the new Stadium for us. Do you want this stadium built in the next 5 year, becasue a large percentage of the skilled labour needed to build such a stadium are going to be demanding very high wages - as London ramps up to 2012. Tesco's are proposing to use thier 'own' contractor so this will have a huge impact on build cost of the stadium. i.e the contractor who has a long term relationship with Tesco's will not hike the price up for this stadium -as he can't and will not hold his golden goose to ransom so to say.

 

We are talking £10M's and £10M's not just a few quid.

 

It's not just what you can fit on the site - it's now much its going to cost and who is going to pay for it all.

[Bill]

Yes Rob i know its a big Job, so you prefer the Stadium out in Kirkby because theres plenty of space and it would be easier to build, not the best reason. You get what you pay for and cheapest is never the best.

You appear to think that the loop will be isolated, you forget that the whole area of Scotty rd, Great Homer, and St Anne st, is to be regenerated, it will be incorporated into the Major Revamp.

 

But to be honest i dont know why we are still debating the issue, i'm sure all the votes have already been Cast and counted by now.

[MikeO]

Are you a Designer, Achitect, and Engineer by Proffesion then Mike I would tend to believe the people who know their business so i'm assuming that HOK know a little more than you do.

No offence intended.

 

I'm not (though architect was my first career choice strangely, was having interviews after A level Technical Drawing when I fell into a different career). I was just giving my thoughts on it...it just wouldn't fit in my head.

 

If you want to believe people who know their business then why choose HOK over...

 

Tim Spencer, Director at Steer Davies Gleave - the company responsible for transport, crowd flow and evacuation capacity analysis for the Emirates Stadium, Croke Park, New Wembley and Stamford Bridge has dismissed the feasibility of the 'loop' site on Scotland Road as a possible site for a high specification 50,000 seat stadium.

 

After closely studying the site setting and current accessibility, Mr Spencer is quite adamant that the circa. 11-acre site could only safely house a stadium of around 30,000, although that figure could be stretched to a limit of 35,000.

 

And I'm damn sure the issue will be debated long and hard well after the vote has been finished, the foundations dug (or not) and probably when you and I are watching from a cloud with Dixie .

 

And thanks for the insight Rob.

[Bill]

I think some people have a misconception of exactly how much an acre of land is.

A tower hotel can be built on just a Quarter of an Acre of land, the space is limitless the higher you Go.

..

 

One acre comprises 4,840 square yards or 43,560 square feet. Because of alternative definitions of a yard or a foot, the exact size of an acre also varies slightly. Traditionally, an acre was a swath of land one furlong long and one chain wide.

One acre is 90.75 yards of a 53.33-yard-wide American football field. The full field, including the end zones, covers approximately 1.32 acres.

 

As i've said on other post Mike, no point debating any longer, cos i think the Votes have been cast and counted by now.

[RuffRob]

Yes Rob i know its a big Job, so you prefer the Stadium out in Kirkby because theres plenty of space and it would be easier to build, not the best reason. You get what you pay for and cheapest is never the best.

You appear to think that the loop will be isolated, you forget that the whole area of Scotty rd, Great Homer, and St Anne st, is to be regenerated, it will be incorporated into the Major Revamp.

 

But to be honest i dont know why we are still debating the issue, i'm sure all the votes have already been Cast and counted by now.

 

I think for me, where the Stadium is quite far down the list. At the top of my list is having the best possible FACILITY at the best finacial cost to Everton. All very much which my head rather than my heart (emm that the Engineer in me).

 

Knowing a little about large civil projects and the costs of building them, when I read how much the new stadium proposed at Kirby is going to COST Everton - I scoured the figures for the glaring errors or catch. But their isn't a finacial catch in it. I think evrybody has been fairly open about the who is gettinng what and what contribution is expected by each party. What is on the table at Kirby is a fairly unbelievable oppertunity to be honest. Something that finacially is going to be extremely hard beat or get anywhere close to. I think I mentioned in another post, we could be easily be talking in the order of £100M difference between two such proposals.

 

We have a absouluty great proposal on the table - do we really think such proposals are two a penny and there one or two others just like this round the corner. I don't think a lot actually realise finacially how go Kirby actually is.

[GoldfishMemory]

I still cant believe people are pro Kirkby when the deal has been struck between 2 mates behind closed doors and totally protected from any competition. I too think the Kirkby deal is fantastic; However I'm enough of a realist and an experienced enough Evertonian to realise the price will rise and all kinds of secrets will come out post agreement as they always do with our board. Don't for one minute think that over the next 6 months you wont find proof that we are paying a healthy lease fee to Tesco, a healthy percentage profit from the stadium to Knowlesley council or that we are infact only getting 1000 allocated parking spaces on the site.

 

Our board has a history of spending cash thy haven't got, making it all look rosey and then releasing the actual truth 2 years down the line when we start reigning in the spending.

 

I'll happily go to Kirkby if it is the right move but the people screaming to go to Kirkby now without giving any other option due consideration are selling this club short.

 

I'v said it before and I'll say it again you dont buy the first car or house you view without at least comparing it with one other if not several!!!!!!

[RuffRob]

I still cant believe people are pro Kirkby when the deal has been struck between 2 mates behind closed doors and totally protected from any competition. I too think the Kirkby deal is fantastic; However I'm enough of a realist and an experienced enough Evertonian to realise the price will rise and all kinds of secrets will come out post agreement as they always do with our board. Don't for one minute think that over the next 6 months you wont find proof that we are paying a healthy lease fee to Tesco, a healthy percentage profit from the stadium to Knowlesley council or that we are infact only getting 1000 allocated parking spaces on the site.

 

 

That just Paranoia with no evidence at all.

 

 

Our board has a history of spending cash thy haven't got, making it all look rosey and then releasing the actual truth 2 years down the line when we start reigning in the spending.

 

 

Can't really blame the current Everton board on the hole they have been trying to get us out of finacially - I personnaly think they are doing a decent job.

 

 

 

I'll happily go to Kirkby if it is the right move but the people screaming to go to Kirkby now without giving any other option due consideration are selling this club short.

 

 

We have a viable option on the table - fincially looks great, what is the point of dragging this out or risk missing the boat at Kirby.

 

 

I'v said it before and I'll say it again you dont buy the first car or house you view without at least comparing it with one other if not several!!!!!!

 

It depends if the house you are looking at is what you want - If it's at a unbeleiveible price - Buy it or maybe miss the boat.

 

Could also say, you could spend time and effort looking at other houses, only to find the best house has been sold or house prices have raisen in the mean time.

 

Move to Kirby -

 

Worst Case - We are in a new 55,000 seater stadium and none the wiser on anyother options

 

Don't move to Kirby -

 

Worst Case - All other options are either undeliverable or not finacially viable for Everton, and Kirby and Tesco's have gone there own way without us, becasue they are not going to hand around will we look at all the options.

 

"One in the hand is worth two in the bush"

[GoldfishMemory]

Rob you do know that Tesco arnt currently allowed to directly buy any government owned land due to them being investigated by the fair trades commision??

 

Tesco cant build a supermarket in Kirkby without us or another 3rd party willing to buy the land and sell on to Tesco thats how they are getting around the legalities of it all! So say no to Kirkby and either the offer stays on the table, the whole Kirkby regeneration stalls or both Tesco & Knowlsley fight to keep us on board with a better offer.

 

As for your other comments well you can believe in a deal that changes weekly and is masked in a shroud of secrecy if you want me I look for facts before I buy in. I may be holding back through paranoia but you are buying in on massive trust, trust of local government and a multi billion pound corporation who are being investigated for trying to monopolise the grocery market in the UK.

 

I just hope those 2 trustworthy organisations ( ) pull through for you!

[Bill]

Well said Liam, they put their views and we put ours, but all of us are just repeating the same views over and over again, i think this whole stadium debate should be put to bed now.

The votings more or less over anyway and we should have the result in a few days.

[MikeO]

Good grief Tesco's have been under investigation for more than a year (along with Asda, Morrissons and Sainsbury's) about sales methods and the pressure they put on suppliers to keep prices down, it's in the news again now because they've been told to provide shit-loads of emails as part of the ongoing investigation....hold the front page!

 

They are a hugely successful multi-national company awash with money (Bestway are Arkwrights in comparison) who want to (effectively) invest a large amount of money into Everton. For their own self-interest certainly, but that would be the case wherever our long hoped for investment came from...no-one is going to invest millions for the love of the club.

 

And it's a "peppercorn" rent Liam, that means fuck-all, not a "healthy lease fee."

Edited August 20, 2007 by MikeO

[RuffRob]

You can't do that Licker. We are all probabley bored of it but we are all still reading and posting.

 

Yes, Tesco's do need some help to get a step up in Kirby, but that's to our advantage. That why we are being offered such a good finacial deal - one that is unlikley to be bettered anywhere else.

 

I know you are not daft enough to believe that getting a store in Kirby is make or break to Tesco's. They will not lose to much sleep if all tthe plans go in the bin and they move on to the next site.

 

Yes, Tesco's may be an 'aggressive' company in term of how it does business, and gets what it wants by lets say close to the knuckle methods. But that's the type of partner that I would like as you can bet your bottom dollar that if anybody can do it they are a partner who will get the job done right, on time and on budget. I have no snobbery of being a partner of Tesco's. As Mike said plenty of 'Arkright' around ready to f*ck things up!!!

[GoldfishMemory]

Good grief Tesco's have been under investigation for more than a year (along with Asda, Morrissons and Sainsbury's) about sales methods and the pressure they put on suppliers to keep prices down, it's in the news again now because they've been told to provide shit-loads of emails as part of the ongoing investigation....hold the front page!

 

They are a hugely successful multi-national company awash with money (Bestway are Arkwrights in comparison) who want to (effectively) invest a large amount of money into Everton. For their own self-interest certainly, but that would be the case wherever our long hoped for investment came from...no-one is going to invest millions for the love of the club.

 

And it's a "peppercorn" rent Liam, that means fuck-all, not a "healthy lease fee."

 

The point I make Mike is not that they are a bad company to be getting into bed with just that all this talk of tesco walking away / continuing without us is fiction. Tesco want a store in Kirkby as it is an ideal location to corner the Kirkby market, seriously dent the switch island ASDA's profits and proberbly affect the queens drive ASDA too. So with all that on the table Tesco wont pull out of this deal it's worth too much so we hold the power to be able to conduct this deal in a fasion that suits us. Tesco don't get a store in Kirkby without us!!

 

I think you all know my stance by now I am not anti Kirkby I am anti rushing into any deal.

 

A yes vote gets us Kirkby even if it turns out to be not as good a deal as initially thought.

 

A no vote gets us the best deal whatever that turns out to be.

 

Voting yes because your snatching at the Tesco deal before they walk away is ill advised because they wont walk away this means too much to them!

 

There is also something else concerning me regarding Bestway, why exactly are you comparing them to Tesco? Bestway are not looking to be our comercial partner they are looking to sell us their land and get assistance from LCC in relocating so in my eyes any comparison including bestway should be made with Knowsley council as in the Kirkby deal they are the land owners. The commercial partners for the loop or any other site within liverpool arnt even involved yet as the planning process is in an embryotic stage whereas Kirkby is 18 months down the line!

[MikeO]

I think you all know my stance by now I am not anti Kirkby I am anti rushing into any deal.

 

A yes vote gets us Kirkby even if it turns out to be not as good a deal as initially thought.

 

It's my impression that a "yes" vote means that we continue negotiation with Tesco, not that we immediately tie ourselves into the deal, pretty sure that's correct(without checking). Not heard anywhere that it would revert to exclusivity either, so if a better deal became available we could still in theory investigate it.

[storm]

but its round?!

 

personally i thought one fo the bonus' of Kirkby was we would have the space to create any design stadium we wanted - eg a proper 4 sided stadium that would create a cracking atmosphere like GP

Even have the space around it to one day perhaps open up the Everton museum with the David France collection?

 

Not just any old round design that would just fit in the space.

 

I dont think the noise in oval stadiums are a match for 4 sided ones personally and especially a stadium surrounded by a ring road is not my cup of tea im affraid.

And as for the hotel, who would want to stay in that surrounded by a busy loop road!? .. thats crazy thoughts.

 

Saying that tho i'd still watch us wherever go .. and would no doubt still use the hotel lol

[GoldfishMemory]

In theory yes but how much more negotiation is ther still to be done? I would say that the deal is close to being sealed.

[RuffRob]

In theory yes but how much more negotiation is ther still to be done? I would say that the deal is close to being sealed.

 

 

I agree, I think with Kirby now it will just be a case of ironing out the details. Tesco's don't hum and har - they will just get on with it, as quick as possible - which to me is another reason why they will be such good partners, some people/companies talk the talk but Tesco's will actually walk the walk. Anybody, can put forward hollow promises, but am a sure thats not whats going on at Kirby.

[KillaGTiR]

[Bill]

Nice work Killa, Tho i still prefer the Normal shaped Ground as opposed to the Round one.

[GoldfishMemory]

You all know I'm not keen on the bowl design and if we were to opt for an in town location I think we would have to fully buy in and control the design process but that looks fookin imposing on the landscape.

 

Just imagin driving down a regenerated scottie road and comming face to face with that just before you hit town!!

[Maghull70]

but its round?!

 

personally i thought one fo the bonus' of Kirkby was we would have the space to create any design stadium we wanted - eg a proper 4 sided stadium that would create a cracking atmosphere like GP

Even have the space around it to one day perhaps open up the Everton museum with the David France collection?

 

Not just any old round design that would just fit in the space.

 

I dont think the noise in oval stadiums are a match for 4 sided ones personally and especially a stadium surrounded by a ring road is not my cup of tea im affraid.

And as for the hotel, who would want to stay in that surrounded by a busy loop road!? .. thats crazy thoughts.

 

Saying that tho i'd still watch us wherever go .. and would no doubt still use the hotel lol

 

The round design is just an IDEA of what Bestway had in mind.

 

APPARENTLY the "initial site plan from HOK Sport was for a standard four-sided ground located within the Loop site with pedestrian access encircling the stadium allowing supporters to circulate around the outside".

The initial study was for 48,000 capacity but concluded that 55,000 was possible. (So I hear).

Edited August 21, 2007 by Maghull70

[StevO]

is that pic accurate to where it would be?

i think it looks damn good!

[Bill]

Thats how the Skyline would look.