Everton Short Sightedness

[paulcarterksi@yahoo.co.uk]

So here we are on the eve of the most important decision in the history of our great club. As an avid Everton fan of 21 years (I am only 26) I really dont know which way to turn on this one. On one side we have the ageing Goodison Park with its fine history of being our home, the first major football stadium in England. It was the also the first British sports ground ever to have double-decker stands on all 4 sides the first English league ground to have undersoil heating. So where did it all go wrong. Of course anyone can see that it is more like a cattle shed these days but my question is this. "is it really worth all this fuss and change, moving out of the city and stopping Moyesy having the finances he's had this year. All for the sake of 10,000 seats and a nice bar for the players after the game".

I cant help thinking that its a rather short sighted soloution to a long running problem. Do people think we are going to compete with the 65-70'000+ that Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal have the cappacity for?

 

Let me know what you think im open to all opinions.

[blablabla]

Im sure Everton and the clever people designing the stadium have already catered for this... The ground will obviosly be designed in a way that allows quick easy and cheap expansion if needed...

I think its quite sensible to just stick to maybe 50 - 55 k as I csrnt see where the extra 10k fans will come from now... in the future maybe.....

 

So what anti move group are you in then?????

Edited August 23, 2007 by blablabla

[StevO]

there is everyones opinions in all the topics in this section, take a read, its very entertaining.

 

and for your cpacity quote of "compete with the 65-70'000+ that Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal have the cappacity for?"

 

only man utd have them figures, arsenal have 60k, chelsea 42.5k

sorry for being picky

[Fozastuta]

I think 50,000 is more than enough. The first entitial season should see at least a 45,000 + attendance quite easily, there after depends on such factors, as league placings, quality of signings. I voted No to the ground move, based on location, the rest of the project seems ok to me. And yes, if the vote sides with a move, i'll be still going to the match.

[paulcarterksi@yahoo.co.uk]

Thanks for your outlooks guys all appreciated. And thanks for correcting me on some capacity's (that will teach me to get my figures correct). Im just a little worried that were going to be in the same posisition in 10,20,30 years time where we need a bigger stadium.

Still, Everton as a club are extremely lucky in that we have a chairman who is as blue as the shirt. So I think that if he's saying its best for the club then it has to be. I think im just a bit peeved at "surrendering" liverpool to the reds.

Oh and welcome to Yakubu him and Johnson could be awesome.

[Bill]

When this debate first came out i was screaming that if EFC are going to sell their souls it might as well be for a 60.000 seater, now EFC have settled for a 50.000 seater which will if full every week supposedly give DM an extra ten million to buy players.

 

After a bit of googling and researching i find that the only time our Gates have averaged 50.000 was in 1963 when we had the best team in the land, and our Ground could still hold over 70,000, in fact the derby match that season pulled in 72.445 people and the average for the Season was 51.000

 

Working on that basis, there is no way that we can fill that ground every week and i will be very surprised if we average any more than forty thousand. there will be no extra income because it is swallowed up by yearly or monthly payments to Knowsley council for the land and to pay back the Debt needed to build the Stadium, on top of the 40.million we are already in debt.

 

So Dougs view that... "I cant help thinking that its a rather short sighted solution to a long running problem."

is spot on, and this is being done purely and simply because its cheap. Oh How the mighty have Fallen.

[blablabla]

Think there is no doubt that a 50k stadium is cheaper than a 70k stadium................... but why pay if you dont need it

[Bill]

What i'm getting at is, there is no way that this ground will ever make more money, it will have to be a sell out every week.

[Randomness]

i thought it was 55,000 but they are going to build but not attach extra parts that if required in the future could raise it to 70,000, However at Goodison we currently have 13 boxes! 13! Tottenham only have a ground of like 35,000 but they have nearly 100 boxes, so balance is going to be restored.

[paul]

It is totally shortsighted. Who knows how popular we could be in 25 years time.

 

The stadium is 50k, add the corners 60k. Why don't they allow for an extra tier to be built on each stand as well?? Just say we have some success we will have extra fans, say 10k wanting to go. If we allow for an extra tier we'll have the choice of either retaining 4 individual stands and adding an extra tier to a side stand or to fill in 4 corners. What harm would it do to give ourselves choice? Even if we never do require to go beyond say 50k, so what. But if we ever have to go above 60k we screwed. No-one can predict the future. Only 13 yrs when the Park End was getting built everyone was saying we won't need to go above 40k, but we did and it cost us our stadium.

[Peoplesc1ub]

I think 50,000 is more than enough. The first entitial season should see at least a 45,000 + attendance quite easily, there after depends on such factors, as league placings, quality of signings. I voted No to the ground move, based on location, the rest of the project seems ok to me. And yes, if the vote sides with a move, i'll be still going to the match.

 

YOUR JOKING ARNT YOU WE CANT FILL IT AS IS? TRYING TO SELL SEASON TICKETS AS PART OF A MOBILE PHONE PACKAGE!!!!

[paul]

YOUR JOKING ARNT YOU WE CANT FILL IT AS IS? TRYING TO SELL SEASON TICKETS AS PART OF A MOBILE PHONE PACKAGE!!!!

 

That is now. I'm talking about if we need to go beyond 60k in say 25 years time. You cannot predict the future but you can at least try to prepare for it. What harm would it do?? I'm not saying to build beyond 50k I'm saying we should allow for it to be expandable beyond 60k.

[Blue4Ever]

When this debate first came out i was screaming that if EFC are going to sell their souls it might as well be for a 60.000 seater, now EFC have settled for a 50.000 seater which will if full every week supposedly give DM an extra ten million to buy players.

 

After a bit of googling and researching i find that the only time our Gates have averaged 50.000 was in 1963 when we had the best team in the land, and our Ground could still hold over 70,000, in fact the derby match that season pulled in 72.445 people and the average for the Season was 51.000

 

Working on that basis, there is no way that we can fill that ground every week and i will be very surprised if we average any more than forty thousand. there will be no extra income because it is swallowed up by yearly or monthly payments to Knowsley council for the land and to pay back the Debt needed to build the Stadium, on top of the 40.million we are already in debt.

 

So Dougs view that... "I cant help thinking that its a rather short sighted solution to a long running problem."

is spot on, and this is being done purely and simply because its cheap. Oh How the mighty have Fallen.

Of Course, the board have been so willing fans to vote yes because they can't afford a new stadium by themselves. Its like the board dont care about the fans all they care about is money thats why I really hate the Everton board.

 

we will only about 43K I reckon.

Edited August 24, 2007 by Blue4Ever

[sheedysheedysheedy]

Of Course, the board have been so willing fans to vote yes because they can't afford a new stadium by themselves. Its like the board dont care about the fans all they care about is money thats why I really hate the Everton board.

 

we will only about 43K I reckon.

I personally don't think that many. We only average about 36k now and I think a lot of peple will stop going because of either an individual protest at the move or because of the inevitable price hikes (not saying I'll be one of them although I did vote 'no').

That's concern cos when people get out of the habit it's hard to persuade them back.

 

Obviously this will be offset by 'new' fans and those who fancy a day out in a shiny new stadium but I can see us suffering at least short term.

[FairWooney]

to leave the size of the ground and bring up a point that someone mentioned.

 

we only have 13 boxes at the moment, that is where money is made.

 

I belive the Emirates stadium's boxes generate more income than Highbury did with all of it's seating.

 

As is said, spurs have about 100, this was a noticable thing when i was there the other day, the ground was no bigger than ours but they have boxes that people pay large amounts to sit in so their missus can watch eastenders (yep that's what half the screens were doing!!!).

 

As has been said we wouldn't fill a 70,000 seater stadium, we would however get more than 40,000 people to most games due to the new stadium factor as well as (hopefully) more success in both the league and Europe.

[sheedysheedysheedy]

to leave the size of the ground and bring up a point that someone mentioned.

 

we only have 13 boxes at the moment, that is where money is made.

 

I belive the Emirates stadium's boxes generate more income than Highbury did with all of it's seating.

 

As is said, spurs have about 100, this was a noticable thing when i was there the other day, the ground was no bigger than ours but they have boxes that people pay large amounts to sit in so their missus can watch eastenders (yep that's what half the screens were doing!!!).

 

As has been said we wouldn't fill a 70,000 seater stadium, we would however get more than 40,000 people to most games due to the new stadium factor as well as (hopefully) more success in both the league and Europe.

This isn't having a go Fair but a serious question to anyone who can fill me in,

does the Stadium factor take account of cases where stadiums were full to bursting before they upgraded to higher capacitys, i.e Highbury/Emirates? I'm sure there are many more in top flight football who fit this category so my point is yes if you need more capacity to get more fans in ...great but we average 4-5k less than capacity anyway so would the stadium effect have that much difference on our attendance?

I've posted a few negatives recently I know but I'm not totally against Kirkby, I just have some apprehensions!

[Bill]

Fair wooney.....""As has been said we wouldn't fill a 70,000 seater stadium, we would however get more than 40,000 people to most games due to the new stadium factor as well as (hopefully) more success in both the league and Europe.""

 

....

 

Your missing the point i was making.

 

In order to make the extra 10 million pounds the club said the new ground will give them. You need to top 70.000, and 60.000 on a regular basis, just to achieve an average of 50.000, I pointed out that it is impossible with a ground that only holds 50.000.

 

And your point about the boxes being the money earners, they are all tied in to the Head count so for instance there will be 35.000 regular seats and 1000 people in the boxes which would give you a total attendance 36.000.

In my calculations in the previous post i averaged the price of a ticket at 30 pounds, which was a bit on the generous side but easier to calculate.

 

The only way to make a 50% increase in takings is to up the ticket price 50%, so in 3 or 4 years time when this shiny new stadium opens you might be paying 45 to 50 quid to get in, which in turn will knock a few thousand off the gate.

 

I know its a long time off, but if this ground even makes a seasonal average of 40.000 i will give the first person to point it out to me, a nice clean crisp ten pound note.

[StevO]

This isn't having a go Fair but a serious question to anyone who can fill me in,

does the Stadium factor take account of cases where stadiums were full to bursting before they upgraded to higher capacitys, i.e Highbury/Emirates? I'm sure there are many more in top flight football who fit this category so my point is yes if you need more capacity to get more fans in ...great but we average 4-5k less than capacity anyway so would the stadium effect have that much difference on our attendance?

I've posted a few negatives recently I know but I'm not totally against Kirkby, I just have some apprehensions!

 

just one point im gunna try to help out on here, we average about 36k at the moment in GP, but we have apparently over 4k of obstructed views. its only a guess, but i do think if we didnt have them obstructed views we would fill the extra seats.

but the stadium effect is known to last about 3years for increased capacity, but in this situation where fans are extremely split we could totally by-pass the stadium effect.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

So here we are on the eve of the most important decision in the history of our great club. As an avid Everton fan of 21 years (I am only 26) I really dont know which way to turn on this one. On one side we have the ageing Goodison Park with its fine history of being our home, the first major football stadium in England. It was the also the first British sports ground ever to have double-decker stands on all 4 sides the first English league ground to have undersoil heating. So where did it all go wrong. Of course anyone can see that it is more like a cattle shed these days but my question is this. "is it really worth all this fuss and change, moving out of the city and stopping Moyesy having the finances he's had this year. All for the sake of 10,000 seats and a nice bar for the players after the game".

I cant help thinking that its a rather short sighted soloution to a long running problem. Do people think we are going to compete with the 65-70'000+ that Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal have the cappacity for?

 

Let me know what you think im open to all opinions.

Ever heard of corporate facilities?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Fair wooney.....""As has been said we wouldn't fill a 70,000 seater stadium, we would however get more than 40,000 people to most games due to the new stadium factor as well as (hopefully) more success in both the league and Europe.""

 

....

 

Your missing the point i was making.

 

In order to make the extra 10 million pounds the club said the new ground will give them. You need to top 70.000, and 60.000 on a regular basis, just to achieve an average of 50.000, I pointed out that it is impossible with a ground that only holds 50.000.

 

And your point about the boxes being the money earners, they are all tied in to the Head count so for instance there will be 35.000 regular seats and 1000 people in the boxes which would give you a total attendance 36.000.

In my calculations in the previous post i averaged the price of a ticket at 30 pounds, which was a bit on the generous side but easier to calculate.

 

The only way to make a 50% increase in takings is to up the ticket price 50%, so in 3 or 4 years time when this shiny new stadium opens you might be paying 45 to 50 quid to get in, which in turn will knock a few thousand off the gate.

 

I know its a long time off, but if this ground even makes a seasonal average of 40.000 i will give the first person to point it out to me, a nice clean crisp ten pound note.

 

 

 

I dont think the the extra £10M will be coming from gate receipts alone. The extra exec boxes will bring more money in undoubtedly but the corporate facilities dont end there.

A new state of the art stadium could be used for other events not just once every other week and I reckon that will bring in a few bob I doubt the baord are nieve enough to price the fans out of going to the game.

Some people seem to perceive KW as some sort of big bad wolf, but do you really think that he hasnt thought this through? Like him or loathe him he seems to me to be a very astute buisnessman and not one that would make asuch a schoolboy error

Edited August 25, 2007 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

just one point im gunna try to help out on here, we average about 36k at the moment in GP, but we have apparently over 4k of obstructed views. its only a guess, but i do think if we didnt have them obstructed views we would fill the extra seats.

but the stadium effect is known to last about 3years for increased capacity, but in this situation where fans are extremely split we could totally by-pass the stadium effect.

Very good point as there do seem to be a lot of people saying that thats them and Everton finished now.

I just hope that once the dust settles people might calm down, all this bickering amongst the fans cant be good for the club, but I can understand why people feel so strongly. I just feel differently myself I would watch Everton anywhere. I love Goodison as much as the next person but I cant understand how people can keep harping on about all the tradition of the place because surely they can see that we need to move. It is a grand OLD stadium and it is heaped in glorious tradition but the key word is OLD

No doubt this debate will roll on and an.

At the end of the day I think the new ground will generate more revenue one way or the other because it surely makes us a better proposition for potential investors.

Im hoping that success on the pitch will bring in more supporters than we lose, maybe I am being overly optomistic but only time will tell

[Bill]

I dont think the the extra £10M will be coming from gate receipts alone. The extra exec boxes will bring more money in undoubtedly but the corporate facilities dont end there.

A new state of the art stadium could be used for other events not just once every other week and I reckon that will bring in a few bob I doubt the baord are nieve enough to price the fans out of going to the game.

Some people seem to perceive KW as some sort of big bad wolf, but do you really think that he hasnt thought this through? Like him or loathe him he seems to me to be a very astute buisnessman and not one that would make asuch a schoolboy error

 

 

In the couple of years he's been here he has sold everything there was to sell, so much so that EFC now own nothing at all, even the new training ground at finch farm (sold before it had even opened) was'nt spared, and we are still as much in debt now as we were before he came, if not more VERY ASTUTE BUSINESSMAN your havin a larf, you and i could have made a profit by now.

 

As you mentioned about corporate events... they might hold the Annual Christmas Party for the Tesco staff, but unless its a company that belongs to, or deals out of Kirkby or the people who already use Goodison, i think that would be it.

Cant see it drawing in any new corporate businesses arranging out of town functions when there is a nice shiny new stadium going up in the city.

 

I'm very concerned about the future of this Club and i hope i'm proved wrong.

[Blue 250]

I thought one of the main proud boast's from you local Blues is the fact that there are

more Blues on Mersyside than rs....or in Liverpool!

So that must mean that rs fans that attend home games have to travel!

 

They travel because they come to see the"mighty" "we've won everything"

Gerrard inspired luckypool!

 

MY POINT!....IS.What if in the next couple of years under rafa the luck runs out,Spanish

imports flop,Gerrard and Carrigher slow down........will they fill a 65,000 seat stadium?

After all there aren't many local fans to help them through the hard times.

 

SO,perhaps with Everton's massive local support,who will only have to make the effort

of an extra few miles to bulk out the stadium.......What if Everton continue on their

current trend of slow improvement,ie league position,quality of squad,good management

(Moyes can only get better)......surely Everton could become a team more people are

willing to travel long distances to watch.There are plenty of Irish Blues who come over

know and again,Blues from the south and(the wilds of North Norfolk....me)other places,

who if we improve will make the effort more often.I've got a mate who's seen Everton

away a few times over the years.....he's coming to Goodison with me soon for his first

home match...because he likes what he see's at the moment,ie a better looking Everton.

 

Success on the pitch will bring the long distance fan in more often....I think!So perhaps

will a better stadium.New people will come and perhaps get the Everton"vibe".

 

What we(Everton) don't need are small groups of people staying away to make a point.

 

It will take a few years to move any way!

 

Talk up bad times and problems.....and they might just happen!

Talk up good times....get behind Everton......and they might just happen.

 

At least we will have tried to make it work,and that's all anyone can do!

 

PS Still love Goodison!!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

In the couple of years he's been here he has sold everything there was to sell, so much so that EFC now own nothing at all, even the new training ground at finch farm (sold before it had even opened) was'nt spared, and we are still as much in debt now as we were before he came, if not more VERY ASTUTE BUSINESSMAN your havin a larf, you and i could have made a profit by now.

 

As you mentioned about corporate events... they might hold the Annual Christmas Party for the Tesco staff, but unless its a company that belongs to, or deals out of Kirkby or the people who already use Goodison, i think that would be it.

Cant see it drawing in any new corporate businesses arranging out of town functions when there is a nice shiny new stadium going up in the city.

 

I'm very concerned about the future of this Club and i hope i'm proved wrong.

 

Are we really in more debt now?

Is this another conspiracy theory or have you got any facts to back that up because that is certainly not what the club are claiming. The official line is that turnover is up by 68% since he took over.

Im not saying your wrong its just I havent heard anything about us being in more debt , everything I read anywhere else seems to point to the opposite being true

[Bill]

They claimed that if the supporters refused this deal it would mean they would be in desperate trouble within five years.

The turnover for the club in the last 3 years has been between 56 and 59 million pounds mainly because of the 30 MILLION SKY TV MONEY, and the 20 MILLION GATE RECIEPTS EVERY SEASON.

And i have already stated this before but if Wyness is as you say, "an astute Businessman" why are we still 40 million in debt and where has all that money gone.

We re-mortgaged the debt (30 million) in 2003 and we pay it back PLUS INTEREST every year until the year 2018 by which time we will have paid 6O MILLION, twice as much. I have been asking why, with almost 60 million a season coming in since 2003 isnt a larger sum paid off that debt and cleared up as soon as poss 10 MILLION A YEAR WOULD HAVE SEEN THE BACK OF IT.

 

 

Something is not right at Everton and i get more and more worried as the years go by.

[MikeO]

Take your point on the face of it Bill but debt isn't always a bad thing. I've got (a lot of us have I'm sure) a personal debt that on the face of it is horrendous, but I sleep at night because of the way it's structured....zero percent balance transfers, 2.9% for the life of the debt etc. I could pay it off much more quickly than I do but if I've got £1000 in savings earning me 6% I'd be daft to pay off a debt that's costing me 2.9%.

 

You may well have a very good point but I'm just saying that debt isn't neccessarily bad.

[Bill]

Yeah Mike i see what your saying, but there's a bit of differencs between 5% of a £50.000 mortgage, and 7% OF £30 MILLION debt.

 

I'm sure the Club will survive, but i'm just flabbergasted at the amount of money that is coming into the Club and they are still crying poverty, Wyness was acclaimed as being one of the best people around at his job but the club havent moved on at all in 3 years, if anything it seems to be getting worse.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

They claimed that if the supporters refused this deal it would mean they would be in desperate trouble within five years.

The turnover for the club in the last 3 years has been between 56 and 59 million pounds mainly because of the 30 MILLION SKY TV MONEY, and the 20 MILLION GATE RECIEPTS EVERY SEASON.

And i have already stated this before but if Wyness is as you say, "an astute Businessman" why are we still 40 million in debt and where has all that money gone.

We re-mortgaged the debt (30 million) in 2003 and we pay it back PLUS INTEREST every year until the year 2018 by which time we will have paid 6O MILLION, twice as much. I have been asking why, with almost 60 million a season coming in since 2003 isnt a larger sum paid off that debt and cleared up as soon as poss 10 MILLION A YEAR WOULD HAVE SEEN THE BACK OF IT.

Something is not right at Everton and i get more and more worried as the years go by.

Are we actually £40M in debt?

Just never read or heard about it

[DavB]

To be honest I believe that the perfect idea would be to go ahead with building the new stadium, keep Goodison up and if we don't fill the ground all season sell it off to another team and go back to Goodison. Silly I know but I can't see us getting any more than we currently do I believe as a lot of fans are protesting over the move the average gate will only be around 35,000 with 38,000 for big games.

[Josh Berno]

What i'm getting at is, there is no way that this ground will ever make more money, it will have to be a sell out every week.

Same view mate really think we will never fill the new stadium not even in a derby match. Really anoys me tho is that we need to move anyway I think we have more chance of ever filling a new stadium with a 50,000 capaticy in our own city rather than kirkby.