Phil Neville

[StevO]

I only listened to the game but he didn't exactly sound like he set the world alight, the Echo (or was it Daily Post?) suggested that he wasn't too hot either (something about being 'master of none'). Still, early days.

 

he didnt set the world alight, but then he isnt that kind of player.

but every challenge he went into he came out with the ball, every header he won, every pass hit a blue shirt, tracking back to intercept. very very solid performance imo

[GoldfishMemory]

he didnt set the world alight, but then he isnt that kind of player.

but every challenge he went into he came out with the ball, every header he won, every pass hit a blue shirt, tracking back to intercept. very very solid performance imo

 

Never gona be a world beater but is a better version of Neville IMO, a far better version!!

[StevO]

whats your opinion on Jags? how do you see him fitting into the team? short term and long

[GoldfishMemory]

whats your opinion on Jags? how do you see him fitting into the team? short term and long

 

I like him alot at centre mid and think he will develop into a solid player there, he will play a major role this season but my be the player to be pushed back onto the bench as a squad player during next close season when we go hunting for quality!!

[StevO]

i wouldn't be looking to replace him next season myself. left side is my concern.

 

im sure people can tell ive been very impressed with jags

[GoldfishMemory]

I'm not saying replace him mate but it's obvious moyes is interested in a box to box midfielder and thats realistically the role Jags will play best in midfield.

 

Left side is definatly a concern but I think we only need some glue to tie together the pieces of a good team we already have and the beating heart of all great teams is a quality midfielder, thats what we are missing at the mo. Maybe Jags can develop into that player only time will tell but for now I like him and I can see him getting better and better.

[Blue4Ever]

i wouldn't be looking to replace him next season myself. left side is my concern.

 

im sure people can tell ive been very impressed with jags

he's done well in his first few games but there isnt much to his game, he is very good defensive wise but thats it really and thats why eventually when we get quality central midfielder he will end up rightback.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Blue4Ever

[StevO]

not much to his game? he can tackle, he is strong in the air and very rarely gives the ball away. what more do you want from him? like others have said before, makelelle is the master at that role, you dont see him playing 40yard balls or defence splitting passes. just get the ball and move it on to another player. do you think if we would have got fernandes (who has "more" to his game) we would play with out a dog in midfield?

[Blue4Ever]

not much to his game? he can tackle, he is strong in the air and very rarely gives the ball away. what more do you want from him? like others have said before, makelelle is the master at that role, you dont see him playing 40yard balls or defence splitting passes. just get the ball and move it on to another player. do you think if we would have got fernandes (who has "more" to his game) we would play with out a dog in midfield?

Tackling he is very good at as heading and keeping the ball but midfielders these days need to have a more all round game, he is a good defensive midfielder but in a 4 4 2 formation central midfielders need to be attacking aswell, I just think in the future if were playing 4 4 2 he wouldnt be my first choice, ok if we were playing 4 5 1 he would suit that role alot. We will see how long he lasts center midfield but when Yobo goes to AN he will most likely play right or centerback. Moyes may well try and make him into a midfielder like Neville and look what happend, he's shite everywere now lol. We shouldnt be turning a player we bought as a defender into a midfielder just because we need one, it was exactly the same case with Lescott at leftback he was good but look how good he is in his proper position, Same with Pienaar, even though we play him on the wing and he's done ok there thats not his real position but I can understand why he's not in the middle.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Blue4Ever

[StevO]

turning him into a midfielder? none of us know what role moyes has brought him in for.

if stubbs is fit while Yobo is away id be sure moyes will play him over jags. you dont need to play 451 for a defensive midfielder to be usefull.

 

Exapmle 1 - Arsenal - Gilberto - plays in a 442 - defensive midfielder - hardly seen attacking - partner Fabregas - often attacking - always a threat going forward

 

Example 2 - Liverpool - Sissoko - plays in a 442 - defensive midfielder - hardly seen attacking - partner Gerarrd/Alsonso - often attacking - always a threat going forward

 

now im not comparing the quality of our players to these, just the roles in a 442 of an attacking and defensive partnership. scholes and keane did it fantastic for years. cahill offers a different threat than fabregas/gerarrd/alonso/scholes, but still offers a threat. jags can do dog work like the others. its not all about flair, balance and team work are much more effective.

[Blue4Ever]

turning him into a midfielder? none of us know what role moyes has brought him in for.

if stubbs is fit while Yobo is away id be sure moyes will play him over jags. you dont need to play 451 for a defensive midfielder to be usefull.

 

Exapmle 1 - Arsenal - Gilberto - plays in a 442 - defensive midfielder - hardly seen attacking - partner Fabregas - often attacking - always a threat going forward

 

Example 2 - Liverpool - Sissoko - plays in a 442 - defensive midfielder - hardly seen attacking - partner Gerarrd/Alsonso - often attacking - always a threat going forward

 

now im not comparing the quality of our players to these, just the roles in a 442 of an attacking and defensive partnership. scholes and keane did it fantastic for years. cahill offers a different threat than fabregas/gerarrd/alonso/scholes, but still offers a threat. jags can do dog work like the others. its not all about flair, balance and team work are much more effective.

He doesnt tho, he offers less of a threat because all he gets is goals, all these other players offer " An all round game " something our midfielders dont.

[carlmc25]

He doesnt tho, he offers less of a threat because all he gets is goals, all these other players offer " An all round game " something our midfielders dont.

 

exactly, and Cahill's goals tend to dry up pretty big time in a 442 as well, 90% of his goals (at least) come in a 451. I like Cahill, but unless he can develop as a player (I know Moyes was on at him to add more to his game like Lampard) then I don't know if there is a place for him in a 442, certainly once we buy a real quality CM.

[Blue4Ever]

exactly, and Cahill's goals tend to dry up pretty big time in a 442 as well, 90% of his goals (at least) come in a 451. I like Cahill, but unless he can develop as a player (I know Moyes was on at him to add more to his game like Lampard) then I don't know if there is a place for him in a 442, certainly once we buy a real quality CM.

Untill we buy a quality Center midfielder, he still is a key player and we need him back soon as, at least moyes will play Cahill ahead of Cars + Neville then thats one of them out the starting 11, if Graveson turns out good id play him center midfield with Cahill and Jagielka rightback

 

------------------Howard--------------------

 

Jagielka----Yobo-------Lescott-----Baines

 

Arteta----Graveson----Cahill------Pienaar

 

------------Johnson----Yakubu-------------

 

Imo our best line up when everyone is fully fit, I hope moyes puts that team out in one game this season just to show how better we would be with our best midfield out.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Blue4Ever

[Romey 1878]

You'd really drop the quality Hibbert? Fuck, you must really rate Jags then Only messing mate, it's a decent team but we'd get steamrolled down the centre with no defensive midfielder.

[StevO]

You'd really drop the quality Hibbert? Fuck, you must really rate Jags then Only messing mate, it's a decent team but we'd get steamrolled down the centre with no defensive midfielder.

 

thank fuck some one on here understands the need for a defensive player in the midfield!

 

how can grav or pienaar be considered our best players already?

[carlmc25]

thank fuck some one on here understands the need for a defensive player in the midfield!

 

how can grav or pienaar be considered our best players already?

 

yeah I agree on the DM point, Gravesen and Cahill would be too lightweight together, maybe not against some of the lesser teams who we are far superior than, but we couldnt play that team away from home against virtually any half decent team. Which is why I'd play Gravesen with a DM and leave out Cahill if Tommy still has what it takes. Cahill and a DM in a 442 lacks creativity, no one will be able to get the ball out to Arteta enough and play through balls for Vaughan/Johnson or Yak. Personally I think maybe we should go back to 451, now that Gravesen is back we'd be awesome again. Cahill can get in the box to score (as good as anyone in the country), Gravesen can stroke it around (as well as anyone) and Carsley/Jags can sweep up in front of the defence (as well as anyone), whilst Johnson looked much happier as a lone striker. Plus Arteta on the wing and what an amazing midfield that is.

 

Personally, unless Johnson hits form, I'd drop Johnson or Yakubu for Vaughan as well. Johnson looked excellent early last season as a lone striker, running the channels etc and leaving gaps for Cahill but his goal record has been pretty poor since the first couple of months. Vaughan looks more confident, plus much superior in the air, stronger, more direct, most likely a better finisher and from what I've seen probably as quick. Johnson's pace has been a big let down, yes he's nippy but he never really seems to get away from anyone and a combination of lack of service and poor runs means he isn't getting in on goal very often. Too many times I've seen him one on one with a defender and he hasn't even had a go at getting past him. I like Johnson, but he needs to start scoring as Vaughan will be back fairly soon and he deserves to play on last seasons form.

[StevO]

so you want ot play 4 center mids and a winger?

 

--------------cahill----------------

--------------grav---------arteta

------cars-----------jags---------

 

no balance for me with that.

 

arteta---cahill--jags---grav

i could maybe go for that as arteta is the only player who can do a good job on the left for us and grav can play on the right if needed.

but i dont think i could drop one of AJ, Yak or Cahill.

[Romey 1878]

yeah I agree on the DM point, Gravesen and Cahill would be too lightweight together, maybe not against some of the lesser teams who we are far superior than, but we couldnt play that team away from home against virtually any half decent team. Which is why I'd play Gravesen with a DM and leave out Cahill if Tommy still has what it takes. Cahill and a DM in a 442 lacks creativity, no one will be able to get the ball out to Arteta enough and play through balls for Vaughan/Johnson or Yak. Personally I think maybe we should go back to 451, now that Gravesen is back we'd be awesome again. Cahill can get in the box to score (as good as anyone in the country), Gravesen can stroke it around (as well as anyone) and Carsley/Jags can sweep up in front of the defence (as well as anyone), whilst Johnson looked much happier as a lone striker. Plus Arteta on the wing and what an amazing midfield that is.

 

Personally, unless Johnson hits form, I'd drop Johnson or Yakubu for Vaughan as well. Johnson looked excellent early last season as a lone striker, running the channels etc and leaving gaps for Cahill but his goal record has been pretty poor since the first couple of months. Vaughan looks more confident, plus much superior in the air, stronger, more direct, most likely a better finisher and from what I've seen probably as quick. Johnson's pace has been a big let down, yes he's nippy but he never really seems to get away from anyone and a combination of lack of service and poor runs means he isn't getting in on goal very often. Too many times I've seen him one on one with a defender and he hasn't even had a go at getting past him. I like Johnson, but he needs to start scoring as Vaughan will be back fairly soon and he deserves to play on last seasons form.

 

 

You want to play 451 when we've spent 20million on new strikers? And we have Vaughan as well. We'd probably hoof the ball up even more knowing Cahill is strong in the air. I think I'd die of boredom if we reverted back to that just because you want Cahill out of the midfield and just behind AJ. He already has his strike partner - Yak.

[carlmc25]

You want to play 451 when we've spent 20million on new strikers? And we have Vaughan as well. We'd probably hoof the ball up even more knowing Cahill is strong in the air. I think I'd die of boredom if we reverted back to that just because you want Cahill out of the midfield and just behind AJ. He already has his strike partner - Yak.

 

Firstly - StevO, I meant play either Carsley OR Jags, I didn't name the other winger in the 451 because I don't know whether I'd pick Piennar or Osman.

 

As for reverting back to 451, I can't see Moyes doing it - but I personally think we'd play better football now that Gravesen is back than we do in a 442. The Blackburn game was diabolical, large stretches of the Wigan match was poor, we were totally useless passing wise against Utd and for 70 mins against Bolton we couldn't string more than 2 passes together. We don't have enough quality in CM to play a 442, unless Gravesen can perform there. Cahill and Jags would be better than Nev/Carsley & Jags but it still wouldn't exactly set the pulses racing, Cahill's game is just too limited. Cahill is better in 451, Johnson is better in 451, Carsley is better in 451, Gravesen is better in 451, Arteta would get more of the ball in 451, hence I think we'd do better with a 451. But due to fan pressure Moyes will play 442, let's just hope Gravesen still has what it takes as otherwise I can't see 442 working.

 

edit: Just think of the team we had the season we played 451 and finished 4th, it was average at best. We now have Johnson (rather than Bent) Lescott, Howard, Baines, Yobo who is getting better and better, Arteta and Gravesen for a whole season, Vaughan & Yakubu. We've a MILES better squad and first team than we did when finishing 4th, so I don't see why people have a go at us playing 451. Yes, we'd all rather play 442 and pass and move like Arsenal, but the fact is we don't have the players in midfield to do this. With the personnel we have, we'd be AWESOME with a 451, no team would fancy playing Everton home or away with that team.

 

Howard

 

Hibbo/Nev Yobo Lescott Baines

 

Carsley

 

Osman Gravesen Cahill Arteta

 

Johnson/Vaughan

Edited September 19, 2007 by carlmc25

[StevO]

our record signing doesnt start!

(i wont comment on jags being dropped for carsley/grav)

[carlmc25]

our record signing doesnt start!

(i wont comment on jags being dropped for carsley/grav)

 

as a defensive midfielder, I don't think there any many better in the world than protecting the back 4 than Carsley, he was immense in the season we finished 4th and was excellent in a 5 last season. In a 4 his limitations going forward are majorly exposed, but in a 5 he is superb. I have hardly seen anything of Jags and I don't see why I'd put him in ahead of Carsley on the basis of his performances so far, which have been solid, not spectacular. In fact, he was to blame for the goal that Bolton scored. Just because he is a new signing, doesn't mean he automatically is better than some of the more established players.

 

Yakubu wouldn't play as he's too lazy to play up front as a lone striker.

Edited September 19, 2007 by carlmc25

[StevO]

carsley can only be short term, two years at the most. if you want to pin boltons goal on jags (which was a quality finish by the way) then im sure a few people on here can name goals caused by carsley last term, mostly due to his lost pace

[carlmc25]

carsley can only be short term, two years at the most. if you want to pin boltons goal on jags (which was a quality finish by the way) then im sure a few people on here can name goals caused by carsley last term, mostly due to his lost pace

 

I always thought Carsley looked pretty pacy, I remember the game he marked Gerrard out of the derby. Whenever I've seen him play he still looks quick enough to play DM in a 5. I'm not talking long term, as long term I would hope Moyes will try and bring a real class CM in who can dominate a match - but for this season I think a 451 would get us the best results, and possibly help us play better football. 442 at home or against weaker opposition, 451 against the big teams, definitely away.

Edited September 19, 2007 by carlmc25

[GoldfishMemory]

I always thought Carsley looked pretty pacy, I remember the game he marked Gerrard out of the derby. Whenever I've seen him play he still looks quick enough to play DM in a 5. I'm not talking long term, as long term I would hope Moyes will try and bring a real class CM in who can dominate a match - but for this season I think a 451 would get us the best results, and possibly help us play better football. 442 at home or against weaker opposition, 451 against the big teams, definitely away.

 

90% of Evertonians have spent te past 2 years screaming out for decent centre forwards to get us away from the predictable 451 formation!

 

It's good for blocking out teams but not a formation I'd choose to use week in week out

[robin.jones]

There are some opinions on here that are really out of touch:

 

1. Why do we want to go back to a 4-5-1. We have 3 class stikers and 2 ok prem stikers.

2. Our midfield should be a blend of creativity (arteta) good tackling and marking (Jags) and the ability to get goals (Cahill).

3. Neville is not a midfielder and should not get a look ni.

[Blue4Ever]

Eventually when we get a player who can do the Jag's job but can create aswell we can play him rightback and have a class midfielder in with Cahill or if he proves he's not up to much Graveson, I can see what u mean if Cahill is playing we do need a defensive midfielder but playing jags in midfield is just like having 5 defenders on and that means less going forward.

[StevO]

There are some opinions on here that are really out of touch:

 

1. Why do we want to go back to a 4-5-1. We have 3 class stikers and 2 ok prem stikers.

2. Our midfield should be a blend of creativity (arteta) good tackling and marking (Jags) and the ability to get goals (Cahill).

3. Neville is not a midfielder and should not get a look ni.

 

Good work on them points bob!

 

Eventually when we get a player who can do the Jag's job but can create aswell we can play him rightback and have a class midfielder in with Cahill or if he proves he's not up to much Graveson, I can see what u mean if Cahill is playing we do need a defensive midfielder but playing jags in midfield is just like having 5 defenders on and that means less going forward.

 

why is it like having 5 defenders? its not like we would otherwise be attacking with 6 players getting forward anyway, that would leave the defence too exposed. we would be attacking with 2 forwards, 2widemen and a central midfielder.

[CraccerC]

blue4ever u change ur mind every 5 minutes

 

did i realyl see carsley referred 2 as 1 of the best in the world at protecting back 4? LOL

[carlmc25]

Good work on them points bob!

why is it like having 5 defenders? its not like we would otherwise be attacking with 6 players getting forward anyway, that would leave the defence too exposed. we would be attacking with 2 forwards, 2widemen and a central midfielder.

 

the one small problem with that is none of the 6 attacking players will get much of the ball or decent service because the 5 defensive players can hardly pass the ball and the other attacking player in CM (Cahill) isn't much better. Don't you see? it's why we struggle to score goals, it's why Johnson can't buy a goal (or even look close to scoring in half the games) and why Beattie flopped etc. We don't have anyone in midfield to get the ball to Arteta on a regular basis, to get Johnson one on one with the keeper etc. In a 451 we do, as we get more of the ball in the midfield, we have more options to keep the ball in midfield, Cahill can go forward at will (rather than leaving huge gaps in the midfield like he does in 442) and we look more dangerous. If going backwards with a 451 means finishing 4th again then sign me up. Everyone goes on about 442, but they don't actually look at the strengths of our players and what system they play best in. You pick the system depending on the players you have, not the other way round. 442 MAY (and I say may) work IF Gravesen can produce in a 442, otherwise we'll just amble along, have a decentish season but not really fulfil our potential, purely because we so sorely lack the right balance in CM - the most important position on the pitch.

[GoldfishMemory]

Carl, I'm reading what youve been posting and I'v lost complete track of what your saying apart from we should be playing 451 defensive formation with one half of a 20mil strikeforce sat on the bench in favour of Lee Carsley.

 

Did I get it right?