carlmc25 Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 Carl, I'm reading what youve been posting and I'v lost complete track of what your saying apart from we should be playing 451 defensive formation with one half of a 20mil strikeforce sat on the bench in favour of Lee Carsley. Did I get it right? not in every match, but yes - against decent opposition away from home, and possibly sometimes at home. I think we will always score goals in a 451 (once Cahill is back) but that we will rarely concede any (as opposed to no clean sheets this season, even with 2 ball winners in midfield). Yakubu was bought as Moyes is desperate to get a team capable of playing 442, because it's what the fans want - BUT he never got that world class CM he so desperately wanted, so unless Gravesen can do the job then we still don't have the right balance. If Gravesen can do it in a 442 then I'm all for it, and I hope he can - and I think he may be able to as I really rate Gravesen, but if he can't then no one else in our squad can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 look at it this way, if we played Liverpool in the derby with: Osman, Jags, Cahill, Arteta in midfield, Benitez would probably be rubbing his hands with glee as he knows that Gerrard and Alonso would walk over them. If we had: Osman, Gravesen, Carsley/Jags, Cahill, Arteta in midfield, then he'd be thinking 'we're going to have a game on here.' It's why we've taken results off the big teams in recent years. imo anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldfishMemory Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 Mate we havent got the midfield for 451 anymore Carsley although he does a job has been on a downward spiral since the heady heights of 2004, Cahill didnt score many at all after his initial season and saying that sacrificing yakubu to make room for Cars is bad judgement IMO. What are you asking for? That because we havent signed a class midfielder we should just play the same team as last season? Remember last season when we were found out by loads of teams, we were one dimensional, predictable and most of us spent all season crying out for a left back a centre mid & a striker. We got 2 out of the three and have taken massive steps in the right direction but 451 this season will not win us as many games as did last season and last season it wasnt half as effective as the season before. You cant play one system all the time especially a defensive one there comes a point when we have to step up to the plate and start taking games to the opposition and we have reached that crossroads in our development as a team! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue4Ever Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 the one small problem with that is none of the 6 attacking players will get much of the ball or decent service because the 5 defensive players can hardly pass the ball and the other attacking player in CM (Cahill) isn't much better. Don't you see? it's why we struggle to score goals, it's why Johnson can't buy a goal (or even look close to scoring in half the games) and why Beattie flopped etc. We don't have anyone in midfield to get the ball to Arteta on a regular basis, to get Johnson one on one with the keeper etc. In a 451 we do, as we get more of the ball in the midfield, we have more options to keep the ball in midfield, Cahill can go forward at will (rather than leaving huge gaps in the midfield like he does in 442) and we look more dangerous. If going backwards with a 451 means finishing 4th again then sign me up. Everyone goes on about 442, but they don't actually look at the strengths of our players and what system they play best in. You pick the system depending on the players you have, not the other way round. 442 MAY (and I say may) work IF Gravesen can produce in a 442, otherwise we'll just amble along, have a decentish season but not really fulfil our potential, purely because we so sorely lack the right balance in CM - the most important position on the pitch. Agreed, a center midfielder is a real priority. I might get slaughtered for this but IMO we missed out on a good left winger in Koumas, he's looked very good lately but I think he's injured now. I dont agree with my last post reading it myself, just woke up nice and refreshed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 Playing Carsley in a 5 man midfield, even a 4 man midfield for that matter, invites pressure on us. He has no pace so acts like a 3rd centre back, but does more damage than good. His reading of the play has capitulated completely, his timing of anything is non-existent these days. He just gets in our teams way, rather than in the oppositions way. Cheers for your hardwork Cars but you've lost it, now feck off into retirement. 451 is not the way to go. Moyes has spent £11million on Yak, he's not going to sit him on the bench for a year til we get a quality centre midfielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 see the cavalry of sense has arrived! but i think its time for me to give up on this thread! im baffled, and maybe even a little flabergasted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 see the cavalry of sense has arrived! but i think its time for me to give up on this thread! im baffled, and maybe even a little flabergasted! I think the problem is a lot of people see 451 as immediately negative, yet for Everton it is largely positive as we can get more of the ball. We played 442 against Blackburn who closed down the ball a lot and because of this we couldn't pass the ball, we just don't have the players to find space and pass and move. 451 was a disaster with Beattie, as he is too slow and too lazy to play 451, same reason it wouldn't work with Yakubu (or Crouch for Liverpool) - you need pace, you need energy and to run the channels to create space in the middle for Cahill. I'll leave the 451 debate here if you like, but I'll leave you with this one thought. Which of our current squad would play better in a 442/451 Howard (the same) Baines (the same, or possibly better in 451 when DM can cover defense letting Baines bomb forward) Yobo (same) Lescott (same) Neville (same or better in 451) Osman (same or better in 451 as can get in box more and get more of the ball) Gravesen (immense in 451 a couple of years ago, unproven at 442 for us) Cahill (undoubtedly better in 451, no comparison) Carsley (MILES better in 451) Arteta (same or better in 451 as more of the ball etc) Johnson (did better in 451 at Palace and with us last season) Yakubu (better in 442) Jags (unknown, same most likely) Vaughan (unknown) McFadden (better in 451, could play Cahill link role) There are far more players in our team who suit a 451, it would cut down the goals we let in and help us score more. Think back to last season - after about 8/9 games both Cahill and Johnson had scored about 6 goals EACH. We've played 6 this season and Johnson is yet to score and (going from Cahill's scoring rate in a 442) CAhill would have only got 1 or 2 at the most. McFadden could play Cahill's link role, I think he could score as many as Cahill and provide a LOT more goals than Cahill. We have the perfect players for a 451, with one more dominating midfielder we'd have the perfect team for a 442, but not yet. On another note, they reckon Johnson is dropped tonight for McFadden - GET IN! although I think McFadden and Johnson could work, but McFadden deserves his chance of a run in the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraccerC Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 disagree... johnson isn't better in a 4-5-1 i think we proved that last year/ i think arteta plays better in a 4-4-2 aswell osman, doesn't make much of a difference when he plays right baines and neville, there's no difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 disagree... johnson isn't better in a 4-5-1 i think we proved that last year/ i think arteta plays better in a 4-4-2 aswell osman, doesn't make much of a difference when he plays right baines and neville, there's no difference how did Johnson prove it last year, at the start of the seaon Cahill was playing behind Johnson, in effect we were playing 451 and Johnson and Cahill started off scoring goals for fun. As the season went on and Cahill got injured so Johnson was paired with different strike partners (Vaughan etc) he could hardly buy a goal and the same has continued this season. Playing up front for palace he scored 20 goals in a season, for us he scored about 11 or something. I don't think Johnson has proved anything, certainly not that he's better playing in a 442. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 451 is a great formation, if you have winger. chelsea domminated for two years with drogba cole robben duff swp. we dont have a sinlge winger who is fit to play. and the list of players who are better in 442 or 451, you've just guessed at most of that. grav was good for 6 months! 6 MONTHS!!! and he hasnt been able to get a game since! and when cahill was good in a 451, it was more of a 4411 (442 imo) as cahill was a second forward. but yak is more of a threat than cahill, but we can use cahill some where else when yak plays. bored now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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