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When did I say that?

 

I was reffering to your comment about Moyes never playing youngsters as utter bollocks

 

So Vellios scores 3 for the reserves and can't get past Saha, Baxter isn't given a chance at the expence of Saha or Cahill, Barkley is being eased in and wont at present dislodge more favored midfield players, Rodwell suffered the same problem.

 

It's obvious Moyes plays youngsters a times, he has too, but it was all so obvious that I was saying when the two experienced central defenders are fit again Duffy will probably step back.

 

Get your head out of your arse you dick!

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rodwell got his debut as a young lad and that wasn't all down to injuries was it? same with vaughan..had ample time to prove his fitness..as has vic...as did osman..as did hibbert..to say moyes doesn't play young players unless he has too is a bit wide of the mark i'd say..although lately it is baffling why saha has got so much chance to prove himself..same with cahill and neville in midfield..are these young lads really that far off that they couldn't do better?

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I think Moyes has lost that spark that made him one of the brightest young managers in the game. He has fallen in the trap that safety is ok, safety in staying up, safety in playing reliable older players that know the same old formation. I remember when moyes first came we played Newcastle away in league cup in midweek, Rooney was playing and we ended up winning cos he made a fucking great tactical decision think someone got injured and we went 4-3-3 away from home. After years of walter we alll gasped and it paid off we won on pens. I love Davey but he is killing me the way he seems to have gone now, i think Swansea and Norwich have highlighted how easy football actually is, play young hungry players that love the game and pass the ball.Davey needs to do something drastic in the summer or we are going down in the next three years. If they are still here in summer Jags,Jonny,Bily, Timmy,Saha, need to go while we can get good money for them and lets look at youngsters, even domestically i would take, Zaha,Sordell,Chester,Maynard obviously Redmond at Birmingham. If Moyes took that stance i think we would all have something to look forward to.

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So Vellios scores 3 for the reserves and can't get past Saha, Baxter isn't given a chance at the expence of Saha or Cahill, Barkley is being eased in and wont at present dislodge more favored midfield players, Rodwell suffered the same problem.

 

It's obvious Moyes plays youngsters a times, he has too, but it was all so obvious that I was saying when the two experienced central defenders are fit again Duffy will probably step back.

 

Get your head out of your arse you dick!

 

No need to be a complete tit.

 

Were all the senior players injured at the start of the season.. no. Did Barkley start .. erm yes I think he did

 

rodwell got his debut as a young lad and that wasn't all down to injuries was it? same with vaughan..had ample time to prove his fitness..as has vic...as did osman..as did hibbert..to say moyes doesn't play young players unless he has too is a bit wide of the mark i'd say..although lately it is baffling why saha has got so much chance to prove himself..same with cahill and neville in midfield..are these young lads really that far off that they couldn't do better?

 

 

This

 

There is an endless list of young players that Moyes has given a chance to and its not been as a last resort because of injuries and it is completely ludicrous to sy otherwise

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Everyone with eyes has seen Moyes give debuts to young players, I can't even be bothered to spell out their names for you.Many were given their chance on merit others probably because they were the next best option to an Everton boss, who for the last few seasons has had a limited squad.

 

As good as Rooney, Vaughan, Rodwell, Barkley etc are......did they hold thier places when more senior players were ready to fill those positions?.....No Moyes limited them for what ever reason he saw fit.Maybe he's right, maybe he's not.This forum is like most with poster screaming out for Moyes to give the boys a chance.....Why Saha, why Cahill etc.

 

This is a Shane Duffy thread, the statement was about what will probably happen to him when more senior players are fit, with just a thought about what has happened to previous young players experiencing their start in the prem.All of the above stepped down for more experienced players to return.....so, no matter how good Duffy is will he.

 

The two injured players in question, Jags and Distin probably should wait thier turn if when fit Duffy is still playing well, I can just see Moyes once again going for experence over youth when faced with that choice.

 

Rooney stepped down after some great displays, Rodwell and Barkley, with all their promise, even when fit haven't been always able to comand a starting place, I thought Vaughan should have had more starts....Vellios, according to most on here should be ahead of Saha and as for Duffy?

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Moyes plays youngsters when he has to. I'm not even getting into it, ffs he has had occasions this season where putting tolis on, or Barkley was a no brainer, instead he perserveres with Cahill and Saha, or puts ossie on the left.

 

It's took us to have one fit senior centre half for Duffy to get his chance. it should have come well before this.

 

Thissmile.png

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Moyes handled Rodwell dreadfully IMO. The lad started like a rolls royce in the middle, but no dithering Dave doesn't dither when it comes to putting players in positions alien to them - he loves nothing better than to try and round them into confidence shot ball chasers.

 

He simply can not help himself, the man was owed so much gratitude for what he did in his first 7 years but i'm afraid he's way into his overdraft now.

 

Hibbert centre half instead of Duffy, plays Barkley outwide, Anichebe out wide, Rodwell out wide, Osman out wide, Billy out wide, even Baxter was played out wide!!!

 

I bet when he buys a new DVD player that works he gets his tool kit out and starts removing screws to see what happens....

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There is an endless list of young players that Moyes has given a chance to and its not been as a last resort because of injuries and it is completely ludicrous to sy otherwise

 

But they only played when we had some form of injury crisis on the go. Not just one, but at least a couple in the same position. Thats the main point, which i sometimes think you fail to address.

 

I cant think of a single youngster that has started a game in the last 5 years that didnt play because of injuries to at least 2 players in the position he plays. Rodwell is probably the only example but as Haf says he was thrown in all over the place but I cant remember what happened when he started playing games but I think it was in the season we had our major pre-crimbo injury crisis.

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I think Moyes has lost that spark that made him one of the brightest young managers in the game. He has fallen in the trap that safety is ok, safety in staying up, safety in playing reliable older players that know the same old formation. I remember when moyes first came we played Newcastle away in league cup in midweek, Rooney was playing and we ended up winning cos he made a fucking great tactical decision think someone got injured and we went 4-3-3 away from home. After years of walter we alll gasped and it paid off we won on pens. I love Davey but he is killing me the way he seems to have gone now, i think Swansea and Norwich have highlighted how easy football actually is, play young hungry players that love the game and pass the ball.Davey needs to do something drastic in the summer or we are going down in the next three years. If they are still here in summer Jags,Jonny,Bily, Timmy,Saha, need to go while we can get good money for them and lets look at youngsters, even domestically i would take, Zaha,Sordell,Chester,Maynard obviously Redmond at Birmingham. If Moyes took that stance i think we would all have something to look forward to.

Its not just the Swansea and Norwich thing that bugs me, i watch a fair old bit of foreign football, last night i watch Bilbao put up a spirited display against Madrid, they lost in the end but they played very well and it made me wonder how a team that can only buy Basque players manages to mix it with the big boys for so long, the pool of players they have to pick from is less than the Scottish national team, it would'nt matter if they had mega bucks, because they can't buy anyone with it. Its down to the players and the manager imo, and neither look focused whatsoever this season.
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I think Moyes has lost that spark that made him one of the brightest young managers in the game. He has fallen in the trap that safety is ok, safety in staying up, safety in playing reliable older players that know the same old formation. I remember when moyes first came we played Newcastle away in league cup in midweek, Rooney was playing and we ended up winning cos he made a fucking great tactical decision think someone got injured and we went 4-3-3 away from home. After years of walter we alll gasped and it paid off we won on pens. I love Davey but he is killing me the way he seems to have gone now, i think Swansea and Norwich have highlighted how easy football actually is, play young hungry players that love the game and pass the ball.Davey needs to do something drastic in the summer or we are going down in the next three years. If they are still here in summer Jags,Jonny,Bily, Timmy,Saha, need to go while we can get good money for them and lets look at youngsters, even domestically i would take, Zaha,Sordell,Chester,Maynard obviously Redmond at Birmingham. If Moyes took that stance i think we would all have something to look forward to.

 

For me, this analysis by Tricky Trev is one of the best pieces of analysis I have read anywhere on the whole Moyes debate. It hits the nail on the head. Just like our original Tricky Trev - great balance.

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I'm going to put myself out there to be shot down again but I think a big problem with our fans is we hype youngsters up too much... who can blame us after producing one of the best players the country has ever seen?!

 

We've blooded as many youngsters as any and we are doing it now. Yeah I'd love to see more of Barkley and Duffy keep his place (and he may). But these youngsters need to be bedded into the Premier League and I'd say we bed them in a lot quicker than most e.g. Phil jones has now made about 50 PL appearances, Rodwell's almost double that.

 

Who are the best youngsters in our league currently? McCecheran (spelling?!), Oxlade Chamberlain? Both are being eased in Josh M being loaned out as has Cleverley, Sturridge, Wilshire, Welbeck In the past.

 

If Moyes thinks the youngsters are ready he will play them and it'll be up to them to keep the shirt, currently Duffy is covering injuries to senior players, he hasn't done enough yet to make him totally undropable - I hope he does play against at least fulham and then we'll see.

 

Rodwell is now 1st choice, he's 21? Not bad at all, he could play for the next 15years in our midfield. Barkley is only 18 and he missed a whole year of his development with the broken leg. He will get more game time this season but none of us know exactly the situation. For bad or worse - all we have is conspiracies and hear say.

 

Football is different to the 'united won't win anything with kids' team and Rooney/ Fabregas (playing regular football at 17) are freaks - worldclass freaks!!! Maybe many of our youths just aren't that good but certainly in Barkley, Rodwell and Duffy we have 3 gems who certainly look part of our future - let's support them and give them the time they need (and not get too carried away!)

 

Villa tried flooding their team with youngsters last season, as Blackburn have done at times this season - neither have actually done much as a result.

 

Time will tell on ours.

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I'm going to put myself out there to be shot down again but I think a big problem with our fans is we hype youngsters up too much... who can blame us after producing one of the best players the country has ever seen?!

 

We've blooded as many youngsters as any and we are doing it now. Yeah I'd love to see more of Barkley and Duffy keep his place (and he may). But these youngsters need to be bedded into the Premier League and I'd say we bed them in a lot quicker than most e.g. Phil jones has now made about 50 PL appearances, Rodwell's almost double that.

 

Who are the best youngsters in our league currently? McCecheran (spelling?!), Oxlade Chamberlain? Both are being eased in Josh M being loaned out as has Cleverley, Sturridge, Wilshire, Welbeck In the past.

 

If Moyes thinks the youngsters are ready he will play them and it'll be up to them to keep the shirt, currently Duffy is covering injuries to senior players, he hasn't done enough yet to make him totally undropable - I hope he does play against at least fulham and then we'll see.

 

Rodwell is now 1st choice, he's 21? Not bad at all, he could play for the next 15years in our midfield. Barkley is only 18 and he missed a whole year of his development with the broken leg. He will get more game time this season but none of us know exactly the situation. For bad or worse - all we have is conspiracies and hear say.

 

Football is different to the 'united won't win anything with kids' team and Rooney/ Fabregas (playing regular football at 17) are freaks - worldclass freaks!!! Maybe many of our youths just aren't that good but certainly in Barkley, Rodwell and Duffy we have 3 gems who certainly look part of our future - let's support them and give them the time they need (and not get too carried away!)

 

Villa tried flooding their team with youngsters last season, as Blackburn have done at times this season - neither have actually done much as a result.

 

Time will tell on ours.

Barkley has a better build and all round talent than Rooney did at Everton and should be getting atleast the last 20 mins and the odd start. He's not getting blooded in, he's being isolated out the team and the expectations and pressure on him to perform(if he ever gets a chance) is growing bigger after every game this season because we are crying out for a creative midfielder. Colelman was hyped, but any fan worth their salt could see he is too raw to have a long lasting influence from the start. The youngster before him was probs Rodwell and he made his debut about 4 years ago so we havent really pushed the kids. Moyes needs to take more notes off Fergie rather than Walter. (There's Gosling as well but Moyes making him play on was disgusting and you cant blame him for wanting out clubs a joke atm)

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Footballers development is no different to muscle development - if you expose muscles to weights that they can easily handle - they don't grow, they don't get stronger they remain the same. Expose them to a progressive overload and they grow, they get stronger they get better and so on.

 

Barkley was exposed to heavier weights ast the start of the season - did very well, then one day he dropped it. Moyes in his infinate wisdom now has him lifting bags of sugar. Sure - of course he is going to run the midfield against Blackburn under 18's - let's face it, he ran the midfield against QPR in the prescence of Arteta. Would Phil Neville run the midfield in an under 18's match? I don't think he would!!!

 

Moyes has handled him all wrong - part of me thinks that Moyes like his young pups to do as their master says, after all he has been here since Barkley was a nine year old... how dare a young buck come along and give something the fans something to get excited about - he's the boss and he will not be influenced and he will let you know - just as he did in the way he took Barkley off for his mad 5 minutes. It's ok for Nev to have 90 minute stinkers - he played for Man United and England.

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Footballers development is no different to muscle development - if you expose muscles to weights that they can easily handle - they don't grow, they don't get stronger they remain the same. Expose them to a progressive overload and they grow, they get stronger they get better and so on.

 

Barkley was exposed to heavier weights ast the start of the season - did very well, then one day he dropped it. Moyes in his infinate wisdom now has him lifting bags of sugar. Sure - of course he is going to run the midfield against Blackburn under 18's - let's face it, he ran the midfield against QPR in the prescence of Arteta. Would Phil Neville run the midfield in an under 18's match? I don't think he would!!!

 

Moyes has handled him all wrong - part of me thinks that Moyes like his young pups to do as their master says, after all he has been here since Barkley was a nine year old... how dare a young buck come along and give something the fans something to get excited about - he's the boss and he will not be influenced and he will let you know - just as he did in the way he took Barkley off for his mad 5 minutes. It's ok for Nev to have 90 minute stinkers - he played for Man United and England.

 

 

So a young footballers development is just about muscle , what about the players state of mind/comfidence and his maturity do these factors play no part at all?

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I think you have misread his post. He's comparing footballing development to muscle development. Not saying its about his muscle development.

 

The state of mind/confidence thing is very much a part of it. But he made one mistake against Blackburn and hasnt been seen since. Will he be confident on the ball next time he does play? Or will he be too scared to make a mistake incase he doesnt get a game for three months like last time?

Edited by StevO
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Footballers development is no different to muscle development - if you expose muscles to weights that they can easily handle - they don't grow, they don't get stronger they remain the same.  Expose them to a progressive overload and they grow, they get stronger they get better and so on.

 

Barkley was exposed to heavier weights ast the start of the season - did very well, then one day he dropped it.  Moyes in his infinate wisdom now has him lifting bags of sugar.  Sure - of course he is going to run the midfield against Blackburn under 18's - let's face it, he ran the midfield against QPR in the prescence of Arteta. Would Phil Neville run the midfield in an under 18's match?  I don't think he would!!!

 

Moyes has handled him all wrong - part of me thinks that Moyes like his young pups to do as their master says, after all he has been here since Barkley was a nine year old... how dare a young buck come along and give something the fans something to get excited about - he's the boss and he will not be influenced and he will let you know - just as he did in the way he took Barkley off for his mad 5 minutes.  It's ok for Nev to have 90 minute stinkers - he played for Man United and England.

 

A good analogy I pretty much agree with all of it regarding Barkley

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I think you have misread his post. He's comparing footballing development to muscle development. Not saying its about his muscle development.

 

The state of mind/confidence thing is very much a part of it. But he made one mistake against Blackburn and hasnt been seen since. Will he be confident on the ball next time he does play? Or will he be too scared to make a mistake incase he doesnt get a game for three months like last time?

 

The way I see it Barkley came in and made a mistake , his head dropped and so Moyes pulled him out of the firing line

 

If the mistake is playing on his mind and his confidence has gone but we continue playing him it could ruin him for good, especially given how fickle some Evertonians are they would soon turn on the lad ( ala. Osman, Hibbo, Arteta, Cahill, Neville) Moyes sees him every day in training and if he says his head is down and he is off the pace then I have no reason not to believe him.

 

Barkleys time will come, people seem to forget the lad is only 18 and he has missed the best part of 2 years development through injury

 

I still trust the manager clearly a lot of people in here dont

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The way I see it Barkley came in and made a mistake , his head dropped and so Moyes pulled him out of the firing line

 

 

His head dropped? He didnt have time for his head to drop, he was pulled straight away. He didnt even get an arm round the shoulder from a senior team mate. He got a little pat on the back after they didnt score the pen, then he was hauled straight off before he even got on the ball again. You not think that would have harmed his confidence? You think he will still have the same attitude to his attacking play? Or think he will be very very careful on the ball next time we see him?

 

I really dont think the fans would turn on him for making a mistake, i've never seen fans turn on a young player. Anichebe is the only one, and that was from his attitude, not making mistakes.

 

Yes the lad is 18, and he looks to have been punished heavily for making a mistake. If I was a young lad i'm sure it would hit my confidence pretty hard.

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I really dont think the fans would turn on him for making a mistake, i've never seen fans turn on a young player. Anichebe is the only one, and that was from his attitude, not making mistakes.

 

Yes the lad is 18, and he looks to have been punished heavily for making a mistake. If I was a young lad i'm sure it would hit my confidence pretty hard.

 

This for me, usually with the younger lads, we (as Everton fans) use their age as an excuse....ala Vaughn or Coleman....so i don't think our fans (in particular woul dhave gotten on his back. We'd have probably said "He'll learn from that..." etc....

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I'm going to put myself out there to be shot down again but I think a big problem with our fans is we hype youngsters up too much... who can blame us after producing one of the best players the country has ever seen?!

 

We've blooded as many youngsters as any and we are doing it now. Yeah I'd love to see more of Barkley and Duffy keep his place (and he may). But these youngsters need to be bedded into the Premier League and I'd say we bed them in a lot quicker than most e.g. Phil jones has now made about 50 PL appearances, Rodwell's almost double that.

 

Who are the best youngsters in our league currently? McCecheran (spelling?!), Oxlade Chamberlain? Both are being eased in Josh M being loaned out as has Cleverley, Sturridge, Wilshire, Welbeck In the past.

 

If Moyes thinks the youngsters are ready he will play them and it'll be up to them to keep the shirt, currently Duffy is covering injuries to senior players, he hasn't done enough yet to make him totally undropable - I hope he does play against at least fulham and then we'll see.

 

Rodwell is now 1st choice, he's 21? Not bad at all, he could play for the next 15years in our midfield. Barkley is only 18 and he missed a whole year of his development with the broken leg. He will get more game time this season but none of us know exactly the situation. For bad or worse - all we have is conspiracies and hear say.

 

Football is different to the 'united won't win anything with kids' team and Rooney/ Fabregas (playing regular football at 17) are freaks - worldclass freaks!!! Maybe many of our youths just aren't that good but certainly in Barkley, Rodwell and Duffy we have 3 gems who certainly look part of our future - let's support them and give them the time they need (and not get too carried away!)

 

Villa tried flooding their team with youngsters last season, as Blackburn have done at times this season - neither have actually done much as a result.

 

Time will tell on ours.

 

I agree, players do need to be eased and loans are vital in doing it (especially at the right level). With our small squad it hasnt been easy.

 

Young players at any club get over hyped because the fans want to see a supposed 'one of their own' come in and take the club to the next level.

 

Looking on Wiki Phil Jones (19) has made 54 appearances and I would guess that around 80% of them have been starts (lets say 40). Rodwell (20) has made 83 appearances for us and I again would guess that he has at best started 50% (thats being generous imo) which makes them about the same. Jones started his first team career in 2009 whereas Rodwell was 2007. I think you get my point, especially knowing that Moyes makes his subs in the 89th minute. I would even be tempted to bet that Jones has had more playing time overall.

 

Duffy has done well since he has come in, and imo has played as good as any CB that has played for us this season. He hasnt been bulletproof and therefore isnt undropable but it isnt right if Distin comes straight back into the team, because he has been making several mistakes again this season. Unfortunately I would again bet that as soon as Distin is match fit, that he will be straight back in the side.

 

I dont think anyone really wants a team full of kids like the two you have mentioned, but with senior players being extremely disappointing, they should get a chance. Barkley makes one mistake and gets subbed off and dropped. Neville/Cahill/Jags/Distin/Saha etc etc have made several yet stayed on the pitch and invariably started the next game. Thats the problem. Players doing well arent rewarded by starting the next game.

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His head dropped? He didnt have time for his head to drop, he was pulled straight away. He didnt even get an arm round the shoulder from a senior team mate. He got a little pat on the back after they didnt score the pen, then he was hauled straight off before he even got on the ball again.

 

According to the online commentary on the beeb http://news.bbc.co.u...em/14600659.stm the penalty was taken at 46:34 and Ross was subbed at 52:51. We were totally under the cosh for those intervening six minutes...

  • "51:49Mikel Arteta challenges Christopher Samba unfairly and gives away a free kick. Martin Olsson produces a shot on goal direct from the free kick.
  • 51:07Inswinging corner taken right-footed by Brett Emerton, clearance by Marouane Fellaini.
  • 50:37A cross is delivered by Martin Olsson, blocked by Phil Neville.
  • 50:13Outswinging corner taken right-footed by Brett Emerton, Marouane Fellaini makes a clearance.
  • 48:58Johnny Heitinga challenges David Hoilett unfairly and gives away a free kick. Strike on goal comes in from Martin Olsson from the free kick, Victor Anichebe gets a block in.
  • 48:38Free kick awarded for an unfair challenge on Phil Jagielka by Jason Roberts. Phil Jagielka takes the free kick.
  • 47:39The referee penalises Leighton Baines for handball. Paul Robinson takes the direct free kick.
  • 46:49Corner taken by Brett Emerton from the right by-line, Centre by David Hoilett, save made by Tim Howard."

Substitution under the circumstances was probably wise....but I don't remember how Ross performed in that time. Did his head go?

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According to the online commentary on the beeb http://news.bbc.co.u...em/14600659.stm the penalty was taken at 46:34 and Ross was subbed at 52:51. We were totally under the cosh for those intervening six minutes...

  • "51:49Mikel Arteta challenges Christopher Samba unfairly and gives away a free kick. Martin Olsson produces a shot on goal direct from the free kick.
  • 51:07Inswinging corner taken right-footed by Brett Emerton, clearance by Marouane Fellaini.
  • 50:37A cross is delivered by Martin Olsson, blocked by Phil Neville.
  • 50:13Outswinging corner taken right-footed by Brett Emerton, Marouane Fellaini makes a clearance.
  • 48:58Johnny Heitinga challenges David Hoilett unfairly and gives away a free kick. Strike on goal comes in from Martin Olsson from the free kick, Victor Anichebe gets a block in.
  • 48:38Free kick awarded for an unfair challenge on Phil Jagielka by Jason Roberts. Phil Jagielka takes the free kick.
  • 47:39The referee penalises Leighton Baines for handball. Paul Robinson takes the direct free kick.
  • 46:49Corner taken by Brett Emerton from the right by-line, Centre by David Hoilett, save made by Tim Howard."

Substitution under the circumstances was probably wise....but I don't remember how Ross performed in that time. Did his head go?

 

From what I can remember, Blackburn were pretty much all over us anyway at that point. I think Barkley touched it once on the right wing and did pass it on fairly quickly but that was it. Fairly certain he didnt make any mistakes etc.

 

As I said at the time, I dont think it was the worst substitution but the problem is that he has barely figured since. I would have liked him to stay on for a bit longer and be more of a natural substitution. Everyone knows moyes doesnt make sub before the 70th minute unless they are injured or seriously crap.

Edited by Bailey
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Apologies if said above and I missed it, but has any of Barkley's absence been a result of injuries? I say this because looking through the reserve fixtures I noticed Barkley has missed a few this season... I hadn't been aware of any injury but I imagine he would make the ressies line up!

 

 

He's injured at the moment but I think that's the only time during his absence.

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This for me, usually with the younger lads, we (as Everton fans) use their age as an excuse....ala Vaughn or Coleman....so i don't think our fans (in particular woul dhave gotten on his back. We'd have probably said "He'll learn from that..." etc....

 

 

The young local lads are normally the first to incur the wrath of the fans at Everton such as Osman, Hibbo, Vic, Unsworth Ebbrell

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