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If I'm being honest there are two sides to this and I can't really decide which is right. When I was playing in the (Everton) Academy we would see and be up against trialists from all over the world and this was when I was 13/14. It wasn't as though I was trying to prove myself as the best goalkeeper in the North West (which would have been difficult) but I was having to be better than people from all over the world. Australia, France, Sweden and Poland are just a handful of the nations that I remember, it's insane. From a selfish, English point of view then it's virtually impossible to make it in the big time, which is why so few do statistically.

On the flip side, as a business or club who cares? They want the best of the best and rightly so, the cost of a flight and a two week hotel stay for a 13 year old lad in Krakow isn't going to break the bank to a club worth millions, so the money is quite rightly pumped into the scouting area as if it were loose change. The end product is that every once in a while a world-beater (or at the very least a player of use) comes along which makes the minimal investment worthwhile. 

The new ruling from Brexit is both detrimental as it significantly weakens English teams reach throughout the world but on the flip side it will force the English kids to have better training, more game time and bigger exposure which can only be a good thing. I guess in a nutshell it's bad for Everton but great for the NT although again with the healthy position that our Academy has been in, we could be one of the teams to already boom from this and be one step ahead.

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Don't understand the mass confusion to be honest, Sam Allardyce has never been relegated, despite managing absolute dross that should have flushed. He steered Sunderland comfortably away from the drop when they looked doomed, turned around the fortunes of Crystal Palace and even though people don't like to admit it, he turned us from cannon fodder into a comfortable mid-table team when we were staring the Championship in the face. 

Harsh on Bilic? Yes. Crazy appointment? Absolutely not. They've got it spot on for what they need in the short term. 

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3 hours ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

Don't understand the mass confusion to be honest, Sam Allardyce has never been relegated, despite managing absolute dross that should have flushed. He steered Sunderland comfortably away from the drop when they looked doomed, turned around the fortunes of Crystal Palace and even though people don't like to admit it, he turned us from cannon fodder into a comfortable mid-table team when we were staring the Championship in the face. 

Harsh on Bilic? Yes. Crazy appointment? Absolutely not. They've got it spot on for what they need in the short term. 

Same Sunderland that Moyes got relegated the season after.

We were to quick to sack him. No doubt in my mind he'd have done better than Marco-the worst manager in my lifetime-Silva.

 

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6 minutes ago, Matt said:

:rolleyes: 

Alladyce took us from bottom half bum boys to 8th. Silva then got Richarlison, Digne, Gomes, Mina, Zouma, and Bernard. Plus a fully fit Keane, Coleman and Baines.. And finished 8th again. Add the dcl, Holgate, Davies were all a year older too.

Worst manager Everton will ever see, but no let's take the piss because Alladyce has gravy on his full English. We were crying got a centre mid, but Silva spunked the budget on a winger. Fucking joke of a manager.

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7 hours ago, pete0 said:

Alladyce took us from bottom half bum boys to 8th. Silva then got Richarlison, Digne, Gomes, Mina, Zouma, and Bernard. Plus a fully fit Keane, Coleman and Baines.. And finished 8th again. Add the dcl, Holgate, Davies were all a year older too.

Worst manager Everton will ever see, but no let's take the piss because Alladyce has gravy on his full English. We were crying got a centre mid, but Silva spunked the budget on a winger. Fucking joke of a manager.

I was never a fan of Silva either, but there is no competition for who is the biggest joke 

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4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

We’ve had a lot of posts good and bad about stats and whether they are relevant in football.  Here mou weighs in

 

https://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenham-hotspur/story/4267806/mourinho-hits-back-at-critics-relying-on-stats-like-badly-cooked-meat

I very much agree with him, stats are for geeks in my opinion or people who can’t make an opinion without some outside help to guide them to a view. 
What’s happening to peoples ability to watch a game and see through their own eyes and feel through their own emotions if what they have witnessed was good or bad, what gets me is football is about opinions on individuals or teams and we’ve witnessed it on here to try and win a argument some use stats as the be all and end all of a difference of opinion, yet can’t see that’s not there opinion it’s a company who are being paid mainly through advertising to count individual items on a game and on individual players, and there are loads of these organisations been driven by companies who want a forum on the internet to advertise through, and these sites must be popular because if they weren’t getting hit on they wouldn’t get the advertising revenues to carry on. 

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3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I very much agree with him, stats are for geeks in my opinion or people who can’t make an opinion without some outside help to guide them to a view. 
What’s happening to peoples ability to watch a game and see through their own eyes and feel through their own emotions if what they have witnessed was good or bad, what gets me is football is about opinions on individuals or teams and we’ve witnessed it on here to try and win a argument some use stats as the be all and end all of a difference of opinion, yet can’t see that’s not there opinion it’s a company who are being paid mainly through advertising to count individual items on a game and on individual players, and there are loads of these organisations been driven by companies who want a forum on the internet to advertise through, and these sites must be popular because if they weren’t getting hit on they wouldn’t get the advertising revenues to carry on. 

I’m a massive geek and I sure as shit make opinions on my own. The beauty of data means you can back up your argument with data, otherwise you get ridiculous and unfounded opinions like Gana is rubbish ;) 

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Only on ToffeeTalk could there be a debate on whether facts are relevant to a debate 🤣? As much as they shouldn't be relied on (as anyone can Google) they are a useful thing to have as without them, utter shite can he used the steer the ship of discussion - for example Olsen making 3-4 fantastic saves against Leicester when in actual fact he only made 2.

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15 minutes ago, Matt said:

I’m a massive geek and I sure as shit make opinions on my own. The beauty of data means you can back up your argument with data, otherwise you get ridiculous and unfounded opinions like Gana is rubbish ;) 

The way Mourinho talked sounded like he's on about players like Gana. Doesn't make important passed, plays it safe. Ultimately his stats will look good and don't reflect his overall effectiveness, which the stats don't quantify.

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2 minutes ago, pete0 said:

The way Mourinho talked sounded like he's on about players like Gana. Doesn't make important passed, plays it safe. Ultimately his stats will look good and don't reflect his overall effectiveness, which the stats don't quantify.

Case and point. Knew I could rely on you Pete :P 

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I love stats because in American sports they are everywhere.  Baseball in particular revolutionized them with sabremetrics.  Here’s the catch, in soccer there aren’t yet enough identifiable actions that can be measured and quantified.  You have goals, assists, interceptions, saves, blocks, things of that nature.  But when it comes to the build up or transition or things like that there are no stats.  So in football they aren’t particularly useful unless you’re using the basic ones.  The “new stats” like xG which is really just a judgement in stats clothing.  Again I love stats, very much a numbers person and when I first started following football I tried to apply my American “look at the stats to see who is good” approach and it just doesn’t work.  Richarlison off the ball work rate and pressing isn’t quantifiable, we only get his distance ran in the match (not the same thing). That’s what I’m getting at.  Again for basic stuff it works.

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9 hours ago, Palfy said:

I very much agree with him, stats are for geeks in my opinion or people who can’t make an opinion without some outside help to guide them to a view. 
What’s happening to peoples ability to watch a game and see through their own eyes and feel through their own emotions if what they have witnessed was good or bad, what gets me is football is about opinions on individuals or teams and we’ve witnessed it on here to try and win a argument some use stats as the be all and end all of a difference of opinion, yet can’t see that’s not there opinion it’s a company who are being paid mainly through advertising to count individual items on a game and on individual players, and there are loads of these organisations been driven by companies who want a forum on the internet to advertise through, and these sites must be popular because if they weren’t getting hit on they wouldn’t get the advertising revenues to carry on. 

I can weight in from my perspective.

My job is a data and insight manager....  The critical piece is the insight.   Data is data, the important bit is why the data is what it is .... What's the links, what's the reasons. What drives the risks?  - most insight requests are driven by initial observations and theories, experienced managers know which areas need to be examined based on what they see/feel. 

I could produce pages of data and stats.... The answer would be "so what".... That's where you give the insight and proposed reasons for numbers with suggestions for actions to be taken to investigate further. 

 

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6 hours ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

Only on ToffeeTalk could there be a debate on whether facts are relevant to a debate 🤣? As much as they shouldn't be relied on (as anyone can Google) they are a useful thing to have as without them, utter shite can he used the steer the ship of discussion - for example Olsen making 3-4 fantastic saves against Leicester when in actual fact he only made 2.

Fantastic save? No. Expected save? Yes.  Sadly we have seen a meal being made of expected saves or them not being made at all. 

When a keeper doesn't make expected saves at a higher rate than others, then that is more alarming than a keeper making less unexpected saves than others. 

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4 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I can weight in from my perspective.

My job is a data and insight manager....  The critical piece is the insight.   Data is data, the important bit is why the data is what it is .... What's the links, what's the reasons. What drives the risks?  - most insight requests are driven by initial observations and theories, experienced managers know which areas need to be examined based on what they see/feel. 

I could produce pages of data and stats.... The answer would be "so what".... That's where you give the insight and proposed reasons for numbers with suggestions for actions to be taken to investigate further. 

 

Agree, but insight without data is useless, at least if you want anyone to pay attention to you 

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1 minute ago, Matt said:

Agree, but insight without data is useless, at least if you want anyone to pay attention to you 

Data drives the insights. Not all opinions are tangible, but they should be and can be to a point.....

they could invest in analytics to the point where every player was rated on their performance within a certain segment of a game.  

Example:-

Pickford pings a ball out to DCL, it's a controllable ball and he shins it out for a throw to the opposition.  The opposition take a quick throw and the recipient runs down wing, beats digne with a great piece of skill and fires in a cross right onto the strikers head who gets in between the 2 centre halves.  

Who's at fault?  Pickford hit an accurate ball, DCL misscontrolled it, the player took a quick throw and the full back was beaten by skill and produced a great cross which split the centre halves. 

One manager may say Pickford picked the wrong pass, one manager may ssy DCL was at fault, another may say the ball was dead at throw in so it's the full backs fault.

All comes down to what risks a manager will tolerate. 

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4 minutes ago, Matt said:

Agree, but insight without data is useless, at least if you want anyone to pay attention to you 

Right but most of football isn’t quantifiable yet, so pressing amount and work rate aren’t measured. So the only way to give an opinion there is the “eye test”.  There will be no data for some things, even in baseball which is heavily stats based there are things like pitch framing which isn’t measured yet.  So no data.  But that doesn’t mean people can’t give their own personal opinion.

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7 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Right but most of football isn’t quantifiable yet, so pressing amount and work rate aren’t measured. So the only way to give an opinion there is the “eye test”.  There will be no data for some things, even in baseball which is heavily stats based there are things like pitch framing which isn’t measured yet.  So no data.  But that doesn’t mean people can’t give their own personal opinion.

Didn’t say they couldn’t, but also doesn’t mean their opinions arent wrong. There’s plenty of data available, and there will be more datasets to come, but as Haf is saying, it’s the interpretation that’s important. What I’m saying is you need something to interpret so they are both as valuable as each other. 

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6 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Right but most of football isn’t quantifiable yet, so pressing amount and work rate aren’t measured. So the only way to give an opinion there is the “eye test”.  There will be no data for some things, even in baseball which is heavily stats based there are things like pitch framing which isn’t measured yet.  So no data.  But that doesn’t mean people can’t give their own personal opinion.

Yes they are. Its called passes per defensive action. 

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Back onto the subject of tired players Richards on MOTD said you should always start a game with your best players even if they are tired, if you need to you can take them off after 60 minutes Wrighty and Linakar agreed. 
The reason this was mentioned was the team’s that rested more players faired worse than those that didn’t. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12040/12189748/fa-continues-to-monitor-player-celebrations-after-possible-breaches-of-covid-protocols?fbclid=IwAR181vc4tnjqfuF-6W_6aRp4KMBi3maCKiTL0SW_Xs568q4u8bbOJxZBJo0

Ridiculous to ask players to socially distance for goal celebrations to reduce the risk of covid spreading. The players are all huddled next to each other every corner, they're all breathing heavy when theu guidelines say you should be 10 metres apart if you're running.

All the players are at risk of catching/spreading covid. The league should be acknowledging the risk they are having the players take for our entertainment, rather than telling players to not celebrate trying to make out they give a shit about the players well-being.

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