Is Everton Traditionally Catholic Or Protestant?

[Johnsy]

Well, as you say this (3 year old!) discussion is in danger of going off track, and an Everton forum probably isn't the best place for it, but keeping it short, of course terrible things have been done by atheists, but I think it's fair to say that you'd struggle to point to any atrocities from history committed in the name of atheism. And I think it would also be fair to say that you can't say the same about religion.

 

Also, I have read a lot of history thank you, and that is exactly what happened to Galileo...no real need for condescension there

[Cornish Steve]

Sorry if I came across as condescending: one of my many faults.

[Paddock]

 

As I look around, I see schools called St. Stephen's and St. Andrew's - because churches believed in education and built the first schools. I see hospitals called St. Peter's and St. James' - because churches believed in serving the injured and sick and built the first hospitals. I see orphanages called St. Luke's and leprosy missions overseas called St. Thomas'. I see much of the world's most beautiful paintings and hear most of the world's most beautiful music and, lo and behold, it was funded by churches. Almost all the great scientists of history were funded by the church - including (little known, it seems) the work of Galileo and Copernicus. And, as I mentioned, none of the world's worst atrocities were due to religion.

 

This is why I never understand such statements of animosity against people and institutions of faith.

And I look around and see Catholic priests abusing young boys and the church then covering it up, I look and see old Mes Snith putting money on the collection plte because she's too scared not to incase she goes to hell whilst the Vatican a city in it's own right sits on the biggest wealth imaginable. I see the Catholic church as THE most corrupt organisation on the entire planet.

 

I'm not going to say another word on this, it's an Everton forum not a religeous one.

 

Just to add to this I was raised a catholic but "seen the light " at a very early age (excuse the pun there)

 

Religeon breeds hate it disgusts me in so many ways but I'm not narrow minded enough to not see the good it does. It brings comfort, hope, belief and hospices, hospitals schools etc but it is also responsible for untold misery, death, persecution and a lot of other stuff.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Paddock

[johnh]

Just to get back to the original thread. I was brought up a Catholic and it was generally assumed that Everton were a 'Catholic' club. When I went to Goodison in the late 1940's there were a lot of Irish Republic players playing for Everton. There used to be a story (probably apocryphal) that Burnett, one of the goalkeepers, ( along with Ted Sagar,) wore a yellow jersey in a game on St Patrick's day and was roundly booed by the Everton crowd for the whole game! On the other hand, my Dad supported Liverpool.

[Guest John Burns]

I do not believe it. Yellow jerseys were only for international duties. That is why they all wore green.

[Cornish Steve]

As a matter of interest, how did the Protestant-Catholic associations with Rangers and Celtic come into being in the first place? Are there any parallels with Liverpool and Everton? I've not heard of similar associations in other two-team cities: Bristol, Sheffield, Nottingham, etc.

[Guest rusty747]

I'm not a scouser so probably not relevant but, here goes,

 

I was christened a Congregationalist

 

Wife number 1 was catholic so I had to sign on the dotted line to get married.

 

Marriage failed and I guess I wasn't really anything at all.

 

Wifenumber 2 was a fierce Northern Irish presbyterian and, once again I had to sign on the dotted line to get married. But that marriage was dissolved and once again I was 'in between' religions.

 

I am now. On wife number three who is Muslim and, yes, I signed on the dotted line once again to marry the woman I still love. She knew nothing about football, when we first met but is now an ardent Bluenose and hardly misses a game on TV.

Edited September 30, 2014 by rusty747

[Paddock]

I'm not a scouser so probably not relevant but, here goes,

 

I was christened a Congregationalist

 

Wife number 1 was catholic so I had to sign on the dotted line to get married.

 

Marriage failed and I guess I wasn't really anything at all.

 

Wifenumber 2 was a fierce Northern Irish presbyterian and, once again I had to sign on the dotted line to get married. But that marriage was dissolved and once again I was 'in between' religions.

 

I am now. On wife number three who is Muslim and, yes, I signed on the dotted line once again to marry the woman I still love. She knew nothing about football, when we first met but is now an ardent Bluenose and hardly misses a game on TV.

Fucking hell mate, 3 times!! Are you mad???

[Guest rusty747]

Never been happier actually Paddock. But after marriage# 2 failed I had vowed never to tie the knot again. But its nearly 10 years of happiness now so I think she's a keeper - no footie pun intended.

[Paddock]

Never been happier actually Paddock. But after marriage# 2 failed I had vowed never to tie the knot again. But its nearly 10 years of happiness now so I think she's a keeper - no footie pun intended.

I was only joking Rusty mate, who am I to jusge you.

 

As long as you're happy matey that's alls it's about.

[Guest rusty747]

That's fine mate. No offence taken. A win in Russia followed by another one at OT and the world will be a wonderful place.

[Paddock]

That's fine mate. No offence taken. A win in Russia followed by another one at OT and the world will be a wonderful place.

Amen to that brother

[johnh]

I do not believe it. Yellow jerseys were only for international duties. That is why they all wore green.

 

I'm not sure that was the case in those days. I remember watching Everton playing Grimsby Town and the Grimsby goalie, Tweedy, wore a red jersey. Though, I admit, green was the usual colour.

[MikeO]

 

I'm not sure that was the case in those days. I remember watching Everton playing Grimsby Town and the Grimsby goalie, Tweedy, wore a red jersey. Though, I admit, green was the usual colour.

 

"Strict rules governed what was and what wasn't permissible in terms of colours and patterns. Goalkeepers in particular, until the rules were relaxed in the 1970s, were limited to green, blue, scarlet and white tops except for international matches, where yellow was the colour of choice. Green proved most popular simply because of the law of averages - very few teams wore green as their first strip. But it wasn't until the turn of the century that goalkeepers began to take on a separate identity. Indeed, prior to the First World War, the only way a goalie was distinguishable from his teammates was by the fact that he wore a cap on his head - although it must be said that in 1909 Scottish goalkeepers were instructed to wear different coloured jersey from the rest of their teammates."

 

http://www.goalkeepersaredifferent.com/keeper/shirtframe.htm

[johnh]

I'm not a scouser so probably not relevant but, here goes,

 

I was christened a Congregationalist

 

Wife number 1 was catholic so I had to sign on the dotted line to get married.

 

Marriage failed and I guess I wasn't really anything at all.

 

Wifenumber 2 was a fierce Northern Irish presbyterian and, once again I had to sign on the dotted line to get married. But that marriage was dissolved and once again I was 'in between' religions.

 

I am now. On wife number three who is Muslim and, yes, I signed on the dotted line once again to marry the woman I still love. She knew nothing about football, when we first met but is now an ardent Bluenose and hardly misses a game on TV.

 

 

I have been married 55 years this year but still introduce my wife as 'my first wife'. Keeps her on her toes.

[Guest rusty747]

Good one John. I'll file that away for use in a few years time. Thanks.

[Guest millwallforever]

I think all this religious business starts off as banter that might, or might not, turn into serious sectarianism.

 

Such banter is to be encountered in London and Manchester as well:

 

Spurs are viewed as the Jewish club, whereas some among Arsenal's Arab supporters are at pains to paint their club as pro-Arab. A very inaccurate view, considering that a boycott of Arsenal has been advocated by the pro-Palestinian BDS movement.

 

Likewise, some United fans accuse City for living off petrodollars, whereas some City fans claim that United are owned by Jewish capital.

 

Banter like this is actually quite harmless, and when things do get serious it is factors other than football that are to blame. In this regard, the so-called Football War between El Salvador and Honduras serves as a fitting template.

Edited September 30, 2014 by millwallforever

[Guest John Burns]

I think all this religious business starts off as banter that might, or might not, turn into serious sectarianism.

 

Such banter is to be encountered in London and Manchester as well:

 

Spurs are viewed as the Jewish club, whereas some among Arsenal's Arab supporters are at pains to paint their club as pro-Arab. A very inaccurate view, considering that a boycott of Arsenal has been advocated by the pro-Palestinian BDS movement.

 

Likewise, some United fans accuse City for living off petrodollars, whereas some City fans claim that United are owned by Jewish capital.

Most Spurs fans are not Jewish. The owners of Arsenal are mainly Jewish.

[Guest millwallforever]

Of Arsenal's two majority shareholders, Kroenke is a Christian and Usmanov a Muslim. It could well be that Kroenke has Jewish ancestry; Usmanov, for his part, is married to a Jewish lady. There seems to be a nice ecumenism of the three Semitic religions in this case; hence no grounds for sectarianism. But that does not stop some supporters from making sectarian points.

 

Given the small number of Jews in he world, it cannot be expected of a club outside Israel to have a majority Jewish following. Personally, I have never met a Spurs fan who was a Jew.

 

 

Most Spurs fans are not Jewish. The owners of Arsenal are mainly Jewish.

[Paddock]

Does any one remember the popular Everton scarves and hats in the 1980's?

 

They were half Everton and half Celtic? I'm sure I owned a hat like this but can someone confirm I'm not losing my mind?

 

Never really liked it or understood it but these were before the days of internet shopping and my options were limited to buying dodgy snides from outside the away grounds we were playing in London.

 

 

Anyone?

Yep, bobble hats, scarves and sunhats.

[MikeO]

I think all this religious business starts off as banter that might, or might not, turn into serious sectarianism.

 

Such banter is to be encountered in London and Manchester as well:

 

Spurs are viewed as the Jewish club, whereas some among Arsenal's Arab supporters are at pains to paint their club as pro-Arab. A very inaccurate view, considering that a boycott of Arsenal has been advocated by the pro-Palestinian BDS movement.

 

Likewise, some United fans accuse City for living off petrodollars, whereas some City fans claim that United are owned by Jewish capital.

 

Banter like this is actually quite harmless, and when things do get serious it is factors other than football that are to blame. In this regard, the so-called Football War between El Salvador and Honduras serves as a fitting template.

Repeating a post I made in another thread a while back.

 

....my father-in-law, an eighty-seven year old Jew who was brought up in North London, is (and always has been) an Arsenal fan. He says that he first went to Spurs but was made very unwelcome and there was a big blackshirt presence at WHL in the pre war days.

[paul]

Does anyone know if we ever sung versions of the Soldier Song or Boys of the old brigade?

[Guest millwallforever]

Yes, these have been sung by segments of our supporters. But they have been sung by the Kopites as well.

 

 

Does anyone know if we ever sung versions of the Soldier Song or Boys of the old brigade?

[paul]

Yes, these have been sung by segments of our supporters. But they have been sung by the Kopites as well.

 

 

 

Any idea on any of our words to either of them? Roughly when did our versions originate from?

[Guest millwallforever]

There is a Soldier's Song version from the 70s, but I have not been able to find the lyrics. Prior to that it was occasionally sung in Gaelic. There was an Everton version of Boys of the Old Brigade on youtube, but it seems to have vanished. It is easy enough to find the lyrics to the Kopite versions of these songs, but you are probably not interested in those. These songs could serve as indicators as to the social fabric of Scouseland; a fitting subject matter for social historians I guess.

 

 

 

Any idea on any of our words to either of them? Roughly when did our versions originate from?

Edited October 1, 2014 by millwallforever

[paul]

There is a Soldier's Song version from the 70s, but I have not been able to find the lyrics. Prior to that it was occasionally sung in Gaelic. There was an Everton version of Boys of the Old Brigade on youtube, but it seems to have vanished. It is easy enough to find the lyrics to the Kopite versions of these songs, but you are probably not interested in those. These songs could serve as indicators as to the social fabric of Scouseland; a fitting subject matter for social historians I guess.

 

 

 

Do you know if that was early or late 70s? I know in the 60s to very early 70s there were a few adaptations of the Old Firm songs ie Merry Ploughboy, GOT, Sash, Follow Follow, but they went off the boil a bit when it got serious on the news in the early 70s.

 

Time forgets and the late 70s and 80s saw a revival of interest, the Rangers/Celtic chant come in which was arguably equal in shouts, but the 80s saw a visible shift to Celtic with the bobble hats (arguably this was because Green and Blue stands out more than blue and blue?) but nevertheless Celtic and Everton became the fan association that people made.

 

Celtic fans were noted for coming down to Goodison in the 80s in good numbers (were they regular visitors before?, did Rangers come down too previously?). Good numbers of Celtic also went to Anfield meaning that their fanbase was split Everton/Liverpool.

 

Naturally this interest may have resulted in new songs being adapted to Celtic songs? I know Liverpool's Boys of the Old Brigade was from the 80s (don't know when their Soldier Song was) so maybe ours was then (let us know if you find it on youtube).

 

I know GOT was revived on the terraces in the mid 80s. There was an Everton version of Athenry but I reckon that was more the late 80s, not to be outdone our Everton/Rangers fans showed they were still around by doing one to the Rangers version of Athenry, a Fathers Advice then too.

Edited October 2, 2014 by paul

[Guest millwallforever]

Sorry, I don't know exactly when during the 70s these songs were sung; I am merely recounting what I have heard from older Evertonians or read in books. Corbett's semi-official history of Everton steers clear of controversial matters like these, which is not surprising for a sports book. And we all know about the stir caused be Duffy's IRA tweet. Although I find sectarian chants like these silly in general, they are of great interest as social phenomena. Books like following could prove helpful if you wish to explore the rationale behind these songs and chants:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Hurricane-Port-History-Liverpool/dp/1845967267/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412241423&sr=8-1&keywords=liverpool+social+history

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Shelter-Each-Other-Liverpool/dp/0750951028/ref=sr_1_30?ie=UTF8&qid=1412241487&sr=8-30&keywords=liverpool+social+history

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Militant-Liverpool-A-City-Edge/dp/1846318637/ref=sr_1_53?ie=UTF8&qid=1412241564&sr=8-53&keywords=liverpool+social+history

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sectarian-Violence-Liverpool-Experience-Anglo-Irish/dp/0954501306/ref=sr_1_60?ie=UTF8&qid=1412241688&sr=8-60&keywords=liverpool+social+history

 

 

 

Do you know if that was early or late 70s? I know in the 60s to very early 70s there were a few adaptations of the Old Firm songs ie Merry Ploughboy, GOT, Sash, Follow Follow, but they went off the boil a bit when it got serious on the news in the early 70s.

 

Time forgets and the late 70s and 80s saw a revival of interest, the Rangers/Celtic chant come in which was arguably equal in shouts, but the 80s saw a visible shift to Celtic with the bobble hats (arguably this was because Green and Blue stands out more than blue and blue?) but nevertheless Celtic and Everton became the fan association that people made.

 

Celtic fans were noted for coming down to Goodison in the 80s in good numbers (were they regular visitors before?, did Rangers come down too previously?). Good numbers of Celtic also went to Anfield meaning that their fanbase was split Everton/Liverpool.

 

Naturally this interest may have resulted in new songs being adapted to Celtic songs? I know Liverpool's Boys of the Old Brigade was from the 80s (don't know when their Soldier Song was) so maybe ours was then (let us know if you find it on youtube).

 

I know GOT was revived on the terraces in the mid 80s. There was an Everton version of Athenry but I reckon that was more the late 80s, not to be outdone our Everton/Rangers fans showed they were still around by doing one to the Rangers version of Athenry, a Fathers Advice then too.

Edited October 2, 2014 by millwallforever

[paul]

I do find it interesting myself from a EFC social point of view rather than from a religious perspective. The Everton old firm songs that we done, well those that I know the words of, were actually sung with the original sectarian bashing removed and replaced with kopite bashing instead!

 

I think it was more a case of that's a good tune and I like Rangers/Celtic, and so write an Everton footballing version.

Eg, The Everton Athenry version was made up in the Winslow in the 80s when the Celtic fans were coming down. So our fans heard them singing it, thought that's good then done an Everton version. I have heard from a couple of different Liverpool sources that Liverpool's version of FOA was actually based on Everton's version, and was done a good 8-10 years later if not more.

 

Like most Everton songs though they don't stretch to being sung en masse but are sung in smaller numbers, hence why some fans think we've got half a dozen songs while others know we've had hundreds.