Tom Davies

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

He could just be a late bloomer like Ossie was. I’m not writing him off but he does have a lot to learn and he needs to play to do that

I feel like its the opposite. He came onto the scene and looked like he had the world at his feet but never really progressed as expected. What we thought was the bottom of his first team level may have been nearer the top.

As I said in the other thread, I am coming round to the idea of him going out and playing football at a lower level where he can learn how to control games.

[Romey 1878]

I feel sorry for you all  

[MikeO]

13 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I feel sorry for you all  

Booo.

[Aidan]

I really want him to be good but when I watch him I know he really isn'tt.

[aaron]

20 hours ago, Matt said:

He could just be a late bloomer like Ossie was. I’m not writing him off but he does have a lot to learn and he needs to play to do that

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

[Shukes]

4 hours ago, aaron said:

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

Ossie was far from shite. He was a footballers footballer. Wasn’t fancy.. though he scored some wonders... but was the finest piece ina jigsaw puzzle. The one that fits in with no effort at all. 

Silky player Ozzie.

[Finn balor]

Ozzie was underrated big time. I like to look at it this way. Barkley was a far superior player in my humble opinion and was hit and miss for us. He won’t last long at Chelsea either. His lack of football intelligence stands out in more profile games. Davies just hasn’t got the all round game you need in the premier league 

[Matt]

6 hours ago, aaron said:

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

Rubbish. Ossie should’ve been better except he was continuously played out of position. But he was far from shite. 

[Btay]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Rubbish. Ossie should’ve been better except he was continuously played out of position. But he was far from shite. 

Yep this. Should have been in the middle of the park but still did a job for us. If he was Spanish or Brazilian people would have thought a lot more of him as a technical player.

[MikeO]

4 hours ago, Shukes said:

Ossie was far from shite. He was a footballers footballer. Wasn’t fancy.. though he scored some wonders... but was the finest piece ina jigsaw puzzle. The one that fits in with no effort at all. 

Silky player Ozzie.

First name on the teamsheet for years imo.

[StevO]

Ossie did a great job. Seemed every year Moyes would buy a replacement, give them a few games and end up putting Ossie back in again. Also got better with age, great feet and great mentality to go with it. 

[nogs]

18 hours ago, aaron said:

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

Ha yeah pal whatever. 

Think the comparison with Ossie is useful though - shows its ridiculous to write a player off at 21. What was Ossie doing at that age? He was on loan at Carlisle, and I bet plenty of Everton fans had put him in the 'not good enough' category by then. He went on to play more than 350 games for Everton, enough said. 

[StevO]

It’s the need for instant success now that doesn’t give players like this a chance. 

I’m just as bad with Dowell, and most of the time DCL, I don’t think they will be top level. I hope they are though I can’t see it. 

[Romey 1878]

Ossie wasn't shite, he was frustrating. Brilliant feet and brain, but having no pace whatsoever really hurt him.

[Bailey]

Are we not romanticising about Ossie a little? He was a great club player but he spent 50% of the season being fantastic and the other 50% of the season being frustrating as hell.

Whilst I understand the argument that players should be kept on to for longer because they might go on to be decent players but Ossie is a very rare example, and I still dont think he would get into this side and he might not even get on the bench.

The interesting thing with him is that he only played 32 times at a lower level on loan (all comps) across 2 seasons. I'm not sure why he took so long to go on loan, apart from a season long injury a couple of years before. At Derby he played roughly 1500 minutes on his second loan.

With Osman I think its more important to look at his minutes because we kept him as an older young player for a reason, presumably because he was talented, and when he got his chance on loan he took it and played plenty of minutes.

In comparison Tom has played over 4000 premier league minutes alone,  DCL over 3900 league football minutes and Kenny has had over 4000 league football minutes. These lads have also had a lot of minutes in various cups and for the international teams.

As a better example of late developers, Kane had roughly 3000 minutes at a lower level before he broke into the Spurs team.

I am not saying that our 3 players wont improve because I would hope they would as they get more experience and learn about their own game more, but I expect that it is rare for a player to suddenly kick on to become an above average premier league player with that amount of time under their belts.

 

[Finn balor]

Good comparison due to their lack of pace but I think ossie was underrated but was more creative than Davies. I’m struggling to see what the best part of toms game is 

[Romey 1878]

24 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

Good comparison due to their lack of pace but I think ossie was underrated but was more creative than Davies. I’m struggling to see what the best part of toms game is 

Tom Davies doesn’t have a game. He just kicks a football. Usually to no one. 

[nogs]

Bailey - how is saying 'Ossie wasn't shite' 'romanticising' him?? And you say 'he was fantastic 50% of a season' - well in what world does being fantastic 19 games out of 38 in the Premier League over a decade not make you a very good player? Not world class, not top 4 material maybe, but very good?

I think Steve has it bang on talking about the demand for instant success. Where the fuck does that come from? You don't click your fingers and win league titles and cups, you don't get youngsters becoming superstars when fans scream 'shite' coz they find it hard to adapt to elite football, you don't start calling for a managers head after half a season in charge without turning into a tin pot outfit like Nottingham Forest who have fuck all chance of getting back 'where they belong' until they ditch their idiotic sense of entitlement and realise that success comes from planning, painstaking work, patience and perseverance. 

[London Blue]

1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

Tom Davies doesn’t have a game. He just kicks a football. Usually to no one. 

All footballers essentially "Just kick a football". Tom Davies's  pass completion is quite good.

He's 20 years old, been captain of Everton and an England 21 regular, let's not write him off just yet.

[Bailey]

25 minutes ago, nogs said:

Bailey - how is saying 'Ossie wasn't shite' 'romanticising' him?? And you say 'he was fantastic 50% of a season' - well in what world does being fantastic 19 games out of 38 in the Premier League over a decade not make you a very good player? Not world class, not top 4 material maybe, but very good?

I think Steve has it bang on talking about the demand for instant success. Where the fuck does that come from? You don't click your fingers and win league titles and cups, you don't get youngsters becoming superstars when fans scream 'shite' coz they find it hard to adapt to elite football, you don't start calling for a managers head after half a season in charge without turning into a tin pot outfit like Nottingham Forest who have fuck all chance of getting back 'where they belong' until they ditch their idiotic sense of entitlement and realise that success comes from planning, painstaking work, patience and perseverance. 

I was referring to the general points on Ossie not Romey's post directly.

I am probably guilty of romanticising him myself by saying fantastic but Ossie was regularly pelted by fans for half the season for not being good enough for various reasons. I feel like there is more love for him now than there was when he was playing because when we look back we think about that goal in Europe as opposed to the 30 daisy cutters a season.

In respect of your second paragraph, the difficulty is deciding when you do give up on a player. How many players that have left at 18/19 have gone on to become top 10 PL players (or similar abroad). Mustafi is probably the only one and that's debatable IMO. Duffy has done well for himself but he is at the highest level he will get to.  Those two wouldnt have been bad players to have on the bench. Vic wasnt good enough, Vaughan and maybe Rodwell might have been if they didnt keep getting injured, Forshaw, Bidwell, Ledson and Jutkovich have made careers for themselves but they arent going to move us forward in anyway.

The worst thing for me is that the ones that have come through have spent their careers elsewhere. Rooney, Barkley and Stones all came through the academy (loosely in the latters case), made their name and then moved on.

[Shukes]

Don’t think we’re romanticising. I honestly don’t think he was a terrible player.

I think he was an underrated technically very good player. Never going to be a world beater, but he was a reliable squad tobdirst team player. 

[London Blue]

Will always respect the player Ossie was, and love him for this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DjmrgldBSub8&ved=2ahUKEwiosaGv1-jfAhVoMewKHUqOBE0QjjgwAnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0J-E_Jqc4TNM6TZX8ipfpc

[Bailey]

4 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Don’t think we’re romanticising. I honestly don’t think he was a terrible player.

I think he was an underrated technically very good player. Never going to be a world beater, but he was a reliable squad tobdirst team player. 

He definitely wasnt a terrible player and I'm not trying to suggest he was.

Actually I have just read the posts back and it was just MikeO when he said he was the first name on the team sheet. The rest of you I agree with it and I take back my comments. As you were...

 

[MikeO]

40 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Don’t think we’re romanticising. I honestly don’t think he was a terrible player.

I think he was an underrated technically very good player. Never going to be a world beater, but he was a reliable squad tobdirst team player. 

He would've been better with better players around him imo, countless times he played a pass that should've been anticipated by the intended recipient but wasn't.

37 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Actually I have just read the posts back and it was just MikeO when he said he was the first name on the team sheet.

I'm not saying that because he was ever at any time the best player at the club, just think it because he was very rarely awful and more often than not a 7 or better and he was/is one of us so he "got" the club as much as anyone in the PL era. Was delighted he got his two England caps late in his career, well deserved.

[Palfy]

19 minutes ago, MikeO said:

He would've been better with better players around him imo, countless times he played a pass that should've been anticipated by the intended recipient but wasn't.

I'm not saying that because he was ever at any time the best player at the club, just think it because he was very rarely awful and more often than not a 7 or better and he was/is one of us so he "got" the club as much as anyone in the PL era. Was delighted he got his two England caps late in his career, well deserved.

He was very accomplished at what he done not an eye-catching sort of player, but a player who rarely let you down. He was in some ways a Moyes go to sort of player hard worker run and battle for you all day with a good sprinkling of ability, I highly rated him proper team man.

[Finn balor]

Should have got more caps for England. His game was suited to international football. And he scored one of my all time favourite Everton goals against Larissa 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

In respect of your second paragraph, the difficulty is deciding when you do give up on a player. How many players that have left at 18/19 have gone on to become top 10 PL players (or similar abroad). Mustafi is probably the only one and that's debatable IMO. Duffy has done well for himself but he is at the highest level he will get to.  Those two wouldnt have been bad players to have on the bench. Vic wasnt good enough, Vaughan and maybe Rodwell might have been if they didnt keep getting injured, Forshaw, Bidwell, Ledson and Jutkovich have made careers for themselves but they arent going to move us forward in anyway.

The worst thing for me is that the ones that have come through have spent their careers elsewhere. Rooney, Barkley and Stones all came through the academy (loosely in the latters case), made their name and then moved on.

My gripe has always been that not enough of our most promising youngsters end up having anything like a decent career with us. People can shrug their shoulders and say well, our kids just aren't good enough, but it isn'tt just about talent, it's about coaching, having the right kind of development pathways and culture in place. From where I sit, there are clubs that do all that much better than us, and from both a football and business perspective I think we're missing a trick. I really, really hope that is high on Brands' list of priorities for how to take the club forward and that his appointment to the board is partly based on him saying look, the footballing structure of this club is all wrong, this is what needs to be done to fix it, give me time and give me authority and I'll get it done. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

My gripe has always been that not enough of our most promising youngsters end up having anything like a decent career with us. People can shrug their shoulders and say well, our kids just aren't good enough, but it isn'tttt just about talent, it's about coaching, having the right kind of development pathways and culture in place. From where I sit, there are clubs that do all that much better than us, and from both a football and business perspective I think we're missing a trick. I really, really hope that is high on Brands' list of priorities for how to take the club forward and that his appointment to the board is partly based on him saying look, the footballing structure of this club is all wrong, this is what needs to be done to fix it, give me time and give me authority and I'll get it done. 

The last time I saw the stats 2% of players from premier league academies end up having a career in the first team. 

We don’t do too bad. Out of curiosity, what teams do you think out perform us on this? I don’t see too many teams in the prem with a load of home grown players in their sides who would get into our team  

The problem for me is the expectation. We have a player break into the first team and people expect them to be Rooney level. Won’t happen. After having a player with the ability of Barkley we will have a lull. At the same time we had the five lads win the under 20 World Cup, for me that shows the massive gulf between youth and elite level football. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, nogs said:

My gripe has always been that not enough of our most promising youngsters end up having anything like a decent career with us. People can shrug their shoulders and say well, our kids just aren't good enough, but it isn'ttt just about talent, it's about coaching, having the right kind of development pathways and culture in place. From where I sit, there are clubs that do all that much better than us, and from both a football and business perspective I think we're missing a trick. I really, really hope that is high on Brands' list of priorities for how to take the club forward and that his appointment to the board is partly based on him saying look, the footballing structure of this club is all wrong, this is what needs to be done to fix it, give me time and give me authority and I'll get it done. 

Our academy is known to create the most footballers across the English leagues. No club in the prem consistently brings youth through into their first team. How many 25+ year old  players is there that have been at their clubs since the youth team? I can only think of Noble unless you count the likes of Coleman who were bought young but even then there's not many. 

 

[nogs]

Pete and Steve - why does it have to be just the Premier League? Teams all over Europe do a far, far better job at developing youth than most top flight English clubs, and guess what, English clubs fall over themselves to pay top whack for those very same players. Why shouldn't we aim for that model? That's exactly what I hope Brands was brought in for. 

And Pete - I'm not talking about academy graduates playing pro football in the lower leagues. I know how well represented we are in that regard. Thats precisely my point - why are more of those not making it at the very top level? Because if we were talking Barca, Real Madrid, Benfica, Sporting, Porto, Monaco, Ajax, PSV etc etc, it would be a much higher proportion.