Trump binned (ex Trump in charge/Race for the US presidency thread)

[Zoo 2.0 1,370]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

I don’t understand why people are shocked. Drumpf has spent 4 years expanding the divide. This was inevitable and I’ll say again what I said before he won the last time; he’ll get 2 terms and try changing things for a 3rd term 

I said to the wife that it wouldn't surprise me if he tried to run for a 3rd term, as unthinkable as that would be. 

As I said earlier, I pay little to zero attention to politics but as far as I understand Biden is winning but the state's not yet counted, Trump is looking likely to win and will therefore win overall?

[dunlopp9987 768]

56 minutes ago, Zoo 2.0 said:

I said to the wife that it wouldn't surprise me if he tried to run for a 3rd term, as unthinkable as that would be. 

As I said earlier, I pay little to zero attention to politics but as far as I understand Biden is winning but the state's not yet counted, Trump is looking likely to win and will therefore win overall?

It's all just a clusterfuck right now. Nevada saying they won't finish counting all of their ballots till Thursday, a vote-counting machine in Wisconsin running out of ink, Drumpf coming out and saying he won already and that votes should stop being counted. Honestly, burn this country to the ground and start over. 

Phew, glad I got that out. Woke up this morning feeling a little more hopeful. Biden has taken a slight lead in Wisconsin, he still trails in Pennsylvania and Michigan, but with a large portion of heavily democratic areas having not fully reported yet, and he's still in with a shout in Georgia. 

Unfortunately the Senate isn't looking too good right now. We need to flip 3 more seats and it's looking unlikely. 

[Sibdane 2,257]

20 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

It's all just a clusterfuck right now. Nevada saying they won't finish counting all of their ballots till Thursday, a vote-counting machine in Wisconsin running out of ink, Drumpf coming out and saying he won already and that votes should stop being counted. Honestly, burn this country to the ground and start over. 

Phew, glad I got that out. Woke up this morning feeling a little more hopeful. Biden has taken a slight lead in Wisconsin, he still trails in Pennsylvania and Michigan, but with a large portion of heavily democratic areas having not fully reported yet, and he's still in with a shout in Georgia. 

Unfortunately the Senate isn't looking too good right now. We need to flip 3 more seats and it's looking unlikely. 

Same here. There's still a chance. 

[MikeO 13,515]

When I woke up this morning the psychotic narcissist blob was slight favourite to win with the bookies (OK so pretty meaningless a lot of the time) but now Biden is 1/4 with aforementioned throwback 3/1.

Considering whacking £1000 on the legend in his own mind to soften the blow if the worst happens (well I would be if I gambled but I don't).

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

9 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

It's uh....it's not looking good. We still might not know by tomorrow, but right now it's looking bleak. And I also don't see the Senate flipping. 

Honestly at this point, how am I shocked by this. We have an openly white supremacist in office, in a country built upon and continuing to further white supremacy. This shouldn't be shocking anymore.

the Senate not flipping would mean Biden wouldn't get anything done till the mid-terms when they would have to vote the Repubs out (if they could).  Then it makes Biden look like he didn't do anything when it's all the Repubs fault for just blocking everything.

5 hours ago, Sibdane said:

Currently praying that PA and one of the other swing states currently red will flip to blue. We also have to keep hold of Nevada... but yeah, it's not looking too great. It's also likely that Biden wins the popular vote which makes this even harder to take. 

I could see this coming, but I'm still shocked.

Biden will win the popular vote.  The only ones who like the Electoral college are repubs and rural states because they are worth something, whereas the popular vote they wouldn't even be visited by candidates.  

 

 

i'm hoping Biden wins NV, WI, and MI, then he won.  The senate will be repub but hopefully they can put pressure on them or work with them to get some stuff done until mid-terms to try and get rid of them repubs.  just get rid of trump.

[Palfy 3,692]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

he’ll get 2 terms and try changing things for a 3rd term 

Will he live that long? He’s determined not to go even if he loses, for the Yanks who is responsible for making sure he leaves the White House if he loses, and will he still be in command of the forces if he refuses to acknowledge the result.

[Sibdane 2,257]

Biden just took lead in Michigan. IF things stay the way they are then Biden would get the electoral vote. 

NYT is thinking that he might get PA too. We'll see. 

[Sibdane 2,257]

And Biden surpasses Obama for most votes in a presidential Election at right above 69.5MM.

[Palfy 3,692]

There’s been more postal votes from Democrats, because they are more responsible when it comes to Covid, Trump doesn’t understand or except that so he calls it fraud, if he showed the respect to Covid which it deserved then he could be leading this. 

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

45 minutes ago, Palfy said:

There’s been more postal votes from Democrats, because they are more responsible when it comes to Covid, Trump doesn’t understand or except that so he calls it fraud, if he showed the respect to Covid which it deserved then he could be leading this. 

spot on.  it looks like now Biden might win this.  He doesn't need Pennsylvania, just Nevada, Arizona, Wisconsin and Michigan.

[Hafnia 6,876]

What's the views on the economic abilities of the candidates?

As a human biden wins hands down.  Someone mentioned that for the UK it could be key that trump gets in because he will help the financial recovery. 

[Sibdane 2,257]

4 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

What's the views on the economic abilities of the candidates?

As a human biden wins hands down.  Someone mentioned that for the UK it could be key that trump gets in because he will help the financial recovery. 

Hard to exactly know what will happen if Republicans retain control of the Senate. I work for a large corporation that deals a lot of exports, specifically to China, so Trump has hurt that. Biden would probably open trade up more as he seems to be more free trade-minded; however, he would probably try to raise corporate taxes whereas Trump has lowered them. 

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

26 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

What's the views on the economic abilities of the candidates?

As a human biden wins hands down.  Someone mentioned that for the UK it could be key that trump gets in because he will help the financial recovery. 

the article below says all you need to know about biden, he's a strong catholic and a decent human being.  he is pro free trade and a career politician who has friends on BOTH sides of the aisle (Repub John McCain was his best friend).  he's a "get it done" kind of guy who is more centrist than anything.

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/17/594421324/joe-biden-and-a-homeless-veteran-have-a-very-human-moment

[Hafnia 6,876]

49 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

the article below says all you need to know about biden, he's a strong catholic and a decent human being.  he is pro free trade and a career politician who has friends on BOTH sides of the aisle (Repub John McCain was his best friend).  he's a "get it done" kind of guy who is more centrist than anything.

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/17/594421324/joe-biden-and-a-homeless-veteran-have-a-very-human-moment

Cheers MJB

[MikeO 13,515]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

What's the views on the economic abilities of the candidates?

As a human biden wins hands down.  Someone mentioned that for the UK it could be key that trump gets in because he will help the financial recovery. 

Very much a secondary consideration in my opinion (not that my opinion counts). Most important...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/26/world-climate-crossroads-trump-biden-different-directions

[MikeO 13,515]

[Sibdane 2,257]

Biden just made some great remarks. 

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

Looking like a Biden win is most likely!!

[Elston Gunnn 446]

I think there are “officially” 5 states still in play: North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, and Pennsylvania.

1. NC - Trump highly likely to win.

2. Of the other 4, Arizona has already been “called” for Biden, but there are still enough uncounted ballots that Trump still has a small chance.

3. Of those other 4, Biden needs to win any 2.  Thus, Trump needs to win any 3.  Of the 4, as the ballot-counting continues, Biden is favored to win Arizona, Nevada, and Pennsylvania.  Georgia is thought to be a toss-up.

4. So, Biden very likely but not 100% certain to win.

5. Trump will hope to drag this out for weeks through “legal” (often frivolous and desperate) challenges in close states.  He will hope to cause chaos.  He cares nothing about his country or about democracy.  He is a fascist madman.  We’ve experienced nothing like his sociopathy in American political history, at least at the national level.  Nothing even close.  Trump’s win in 2016 was a World Historical Mistake.  Around 65 million Americans voted for him this time, most of them for a second time.

 

Edit — my mistake.  Biden could also achieve the required 270 electoral votes if he wins PA.  If he loses PA, he’d need 2 of Georgia, Arizona, and Nevada.

[Sibdane 2,257]

According to projections, all Biden needs is Nevada now. It would be helpful if he grabs more though. 

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

Yes also important is Mitch McConnell and rob portman, both high ranking republican senators made statements today which seemingly signaled if Biden wins they will push trump to stop the legal battles and conspiracy crap. This tweet has the story

 

 

[dunlopp9987 768]

5 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Yes also important is Mitch McConnell and rob portman, both high ranking republican senators made statements today which seemingly signaled if Biden wins they will push trump to stop the legal battles and conspiracy crap. This tweet has the story

 

 

Hooray!! We're applauding them for literally doing the bare minimum of what's required to be a decent human being! 

Trump might be a sociopath, but Mitch McConnell is legitimately the worst of the worst. I loathe him FAR more than the big Cheeto. 

[Sibdane 2,257]

8 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Hooray!! We're applauding them for literally doing the bare minimum of what's required to be a decent human being! 

Trump might be a sociopath, but Mitch McConnell is legitimately the worst of the worst. I loathe him FAR more than the big Cheeto. 

He really is the worst. Lindsey Graham is another one I despise. 

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

8 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Hooray!! We're applauding them for literally doing the bare minimum of what's required to be a decent human being! 

Trump might be a sociopath, but Mitch McConnell is legitimately the worst of the worst. I loathe him FAR more than the big Cheeto. 

where was i applauding them?  i simply stated the repubs won't join in the legal battles like Trump wants to.  Which is how it should be and a good thing.  never said i liked either of them, my feelings on repubs have been widely shared on here already so i'll spare you

[Elston Gunnn 446]

Update —

1.  The 4 key states remain PA, GA, AZ, NV

2. Biden needs to win either PA or any 2 of the other 3.

3. Biden’s lead in both AZ and NV is slipping.  If I had to guess, I’d guess Trump just might take AZ, while Biden holds NV.  Just a guess.

4. Biden coming fast in GA.  Trump’s lead there is about 18K, with 50-60K ballots yet to be counted.  Biden will win roughly 2/3+ of those remaining ballots.  So if he wins, say, 37K-18K, Biden wins GA.

5. Biden coming even more strongly in PA, and is likely to win solidly there. No guarantee, but likely.

6. Pretty much everything has to fall toward Trump for him to win.

7. Beyond this, fascist actions, including armed Trump supporters, are showing up in AZ to try to intimidate officials/workers trying to count ballots to provide a result.  I repeat: the U.S. is having a fascist moment.  I hope it does not turn into a fascist era.  I am not using “fascism” as a label.  I mean it literally.

[Matt 8,295]

AP has already called Arizona hasn’t it?

[Elston Gunnn 446]

4 minutes ago, Matt said:

AP has already called Arizona hasn’t it?

Yes, but perhaps prematurely.  They will be embarrassed if Trump comes back to win.  It would be an unusual mistake for the AP to have made.

 

[Matt 8,295]

2 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

Yes, but perhaps prematurely.  They will be embarrassed if Trump comes back to win.  It would be an unusual mistake for the AP to have made.

 

They never declare unless it’s mathematically impossible though, right?

[MikeO 13,515]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

They never declare unless it’s mathematically impossible though, right?

AP declared Arizona yesterday morning (UK time) but the BBC didn't because they felt it was too early.

[Elston Gunnn 446]

22 minutes ago, Matt said:

They never declare unless it’s mathematically impossible though, right?

You know, I really don’t know their standards.  Nor what variety of data they rely on generally here.  They may turn out to have called it correctly, but if not, they’ll be embarrassed and Trump will use this as example A of “media bias and fake news.”

I’d guess there’s been a vigorous internal debate at the AP the last 24 hours or so.

Also, I don’t think the standard is “mathematical impossibility.”  I’ve seen an untold number of projections based on multiple complex data points other than mathematical impossibility.  They know Candidate X might still win her contest if she took 100% of the remaining 64K votes, but she won’t win that 100%.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Elston Gunnn

[dunlopp9987 768]

Trump supporters in Arizona protesting yelling "count the votes!" while trump supporters in Michigan are yelling "stop the count!"

Literally can't make this shit up

[Sibdane 2,257]

7 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Trump supporters in Arizona protesting yelling "count the votes!" while trump supporters in Michigan are yelling "stop the count!"

Literally can't make this shit up

Facebook sure is a toxic place. A bunch of folks I follow are claiming that the "deep state" is behind Biden's resurgence. I'm about to delete that trash social platform.  

[Matt 8,295]

1 hour ago, Elston Gunnn said:

You know, I really don’t know their standards.  Nor what variety of data they rely on generally here.  They may turn out to have called it correctly, but if not, they’ll be embarrassed and Trump will use this as example A of “media bias and fake news.”

I’d guess there’s been a vigorous internal debate at the AP the last 24 hours or so.

Also, I don’t think the standard is “mathematical impossibility.”  I’ve seen an untold number of projections based on multiple complex data points other than mathematical impossibility.  They know Candidate X might still win her contest if she took 100% of the remaining 64K votes, but she won’t win that 100%.

My understanding is that they never declare things until the data is clear, they don’t work off projections. Apparently they have made a couple of mistakes based on the data they had and immediately rectified it. They’re pretty much the best source for the election because of this. 

[Cornish Steve 3,103]

23 hours ago, Palfy said:

Will he live that long? He’s determined not to go even if he loses, for the Yanks who is responsible for making sure he leaves the White House if he loses, and will he still be in command of the forces if he refuses to acknowledge the result.

His campaign manager just issued a weird tweet: "the president is alive and well."

[Palfy 3,692]

16 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

His campaign manager just issued a weird tweet: "the president is alive and well."

😂

[Elston Gunnn 446]

1 hour ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Trump supporters in Arizona protesting yelling "count the votes!" while trump supporters in Michigan are yelling "stop the count!"

Literally can't make this shit up

You’re right, can’t make it up.  And we need to call it what it is, fascism in action.

I would not propose to call all Trump supporters active, conscious proponents of fascism.  But we do need to try to understand how widespread is fascism in Trumpism.  Here’s my tentative first take.

Trump and inner circle — fascists, grifters, liars, cheaters, scofflaws, white supremacists.  There is absolutely nothing they will not do to retain power, now ominously including disrupting the counting of finished ballots and encouraging neo-Nazi militias to “stop Democrats from stealing the election.”

Surrounding circle — witting Trump enablers, their latent fascist inclinations now brought to the surface.  This group has called itself “conservative,” but has become deeply reactionary, backward-looking, intent on doing whatever it takes to return to manly white nationalism.  This group includes virtually all (approximately 200) Republicans in the House of Representatives.  It includes perhaps 1/2 of the Republicans in the Senate. It also includes the vast majority of Republican state legislators.

Passive enablers of Trumpist fascism — remainder of Republican Senators, many of whom will criticize Trump privately, know he has authoritarian tendencies, but fear Trump voters, value their political careers more than democracy and their Constitutional oath.  This group also includes high % of people who vote for Trump.  Generally they avoid thinking and talking about about Trump’s character, focusing on this “policy” or that: abortion, Supreme Court, anti-immigration, deregulation, tax reduction, anti-environmentalism, etc.

This group, in the tens of millions, knows almost literally nothing about how our political system has historically worked, what our Constitution says and means.  They feel aggrieved by the drift of American culture over the last half-century and see Trump as their angry “NO!!!”  So unsettled have they become, that they actually voted for Trump a second time.  They have no memory of historical fascism.  They have no knowledge or or interest in American history, much less European or world history, beyond shallow clichés — equality, land of freedom, greatest country ever, MAGA.  Their willful ignorance has rendered them dangerously stupid to the whole world.

 

[Palfy 3,692]

2 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

You’re right, can’t make it up.  And we need to call it what it is, fascism in action.

I would not propose to call all Trump supporters active, conscious proponents of fascism.  But we do need to try to understand how widespread is fascism in Trumpism.  Here’s my tentative first take.

Trump and inner circle — fascists, grifters, liars, cheaters, scofflaws, white supremacists.  There is absolutely nothing they will not do to retain power, now ominously including disrupting the counting of finished ballots and encouraging neo-Nazi militias to “stop Democrats from stealing the election.”

Surrounding circle — witting Trump enablers, their latent fascist inclinations now brought to the surface.  This group has called itself “conservative,” but has become deeply reactionary, backward-looking, intent on doing whatever it takes to return to manly white nationalism.  This group includes virtually all (approximately 200) Republicans in the House of Representatives.  It includes perhaps 1/2 of the Republicans in the Senate. It also includes the vast majority of Republican state legislators.

Passive enablers of Trumpist fascism — remainder of Republican Senators, many of whom will criticize Trump privately, know he has authoritarian tendencies, but fear Trump voters, value their political careers more than democracy and their Constitutional oath.  This group also includes high % of people who vote for Trump.  Generally they avoid thinking and talking about about Trump’s character, focusing on this “policy” or that: abortion, Supreme Court, anti-immigration, deregulation, tax reduction, anti-environmentalism, etc.

This group, in the tens of millions, knows almost literally nothing about how our political system has historically worked, what our Constitution says and means.  They feel aggrieved by the drift of American culture over the last half-century and see Trump as their angry “NO!!!”  So unsettled have they become, that they actually voted for Trump a second time.  They have no memory of historical fascism.  They have no knowledge or or interest in American history, much less European or world history, beyond shallow clichés — equality, land of freedom, greatest country ever, MAGA.  Their willful ignorance has rendered them dangerously stupid to the whole world.

 

Is history repeating it self in the USA 🇺🇸 have the Democrats and Republicans become the new Unionist and Confederate Parties. 
It use to be that who ever won the Presidency of the USA the whole country accepted the outcome and got behind the victor, whether Democrat or Republican to unite for the good of the country at home and abroad, not so now this feels as close to Civil War as you can get without taking up arms, where and how will this animosity end? 

[Sibdane 2,257]

39 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Is history repeating it self in the USA 🇺🇸 have the Democrats and Republicans become the new Unionist and Confederate Parties. 
It use to be that who ever won the Presidency of the USA the whole country accepted the outcome and got behind the victor, whether Democrat or Republican to unite for the good of the country at home and abroad, not so now this feels as close to Civil War as you can get without taking up arms, where and how will this animosity end? 

I get the same feeling, Pal. Our country is very divided. It doesn't feel like there's much bipartisanship now. 

[holystove 671]

Biden just flipped Pennsylvania.

Anxiety levels slightly going down.

[Matt 8,295]

 

[holystove 671]

 

I used to like Jon Voight.  What is happening to these people...

So far, one case of voter fraud in Pennsylvania, ..by a Trump voter.  https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5f91e43ec5b61c185f4848de/amp?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly90LmNvLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABcWcuMrOkJnxfdnX72me7EVdCvaWG7yJSOTVdfybH_zETSuZKW6B0b4hi2gSToTWExm0AdSJ5gBaeFTzq2bvsCAOCxOk9UOrIHGpRdDMcp25XT_LaVVhljPdHxLPDT2AoD5BO2NsNK8LdtBYj_8GBISO4bEOtnMyx4YjnEpDjNn

 

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

15 minutes ago, holystove said:

 

I used to like Jon Voight.  What is happening to these people...

So far, one case of voter fraud in Pennsylvania, ..by a Trump voter.  https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5f91e43ec5b61c185f4848de/amp?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly90LmNvLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABcWcuMrOkJnxfdnX72me7EVdCvaWG7yJSOTVdfybH_zETSuZKW6B0b4hi2gSToTWExm0AdSJ5gBaeFTzq2bvsCAOCxOk9UOrIHGpRdDMcp25XT_LaVVhljPdHxLPDT2AoD5BO2NsNK8LdtBYj_8GBISO4bEOtnMyx4YjnEpDjNn

 

they have figured out that their base is very naive and gullible.  so they constantly stoke the fires on conspiracy theories and straight up lies.  also they are sore losers, instead of conceding and moving on, they are dragging their feet hoping for some miracle that won't come.  

 

Biden's win was huge, the metaphorical deck is always stacked against the new candidate when running against an incumbent.  Most get a second term regardless of how bad they are doing (see George W Bush).

[Palfy 3,692]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

they have figured out that their base is very naive and gullible.  so they constantly stoke the fires on conspiracy theories and straight up lies.  also they are sore losers, instead of conceding and moving on, they are dragging their feet hoping for some miracle that won't come.  

 

Biden's win was huge, the metaphorical deck is always stacked against the new candidate when running against an incumbent.  Most get a second term regardless of how bad they are doing (see George W Bush).

I didn't think Biden's win was huge or anything was stacked against him, I would have found it more of shock if he hadn't won, surely Americans wouldn't make the same mistake again and vote in the arsehole that is Trump.

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I didn't think Biden's win was huge or anything was stacked against him, I would have found it more of shock if he hadn't won, surely Americans wouldn't make the same mistake again and vote in the arsehole that is Trump.

you don't understand our system then, the popular winner doesn't win it.  it's the electoral college which gives rural middle america states more power than they should have.  trump won the major of the states.

[Palfy 3,692]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

you don't understand our system then, the popular winner doesn't win it.  it's the electoral college which gives rural middle america states more power than they should have.  trump won the major of the states.

I do understand your system, my point being if Trump would have won again then I would be saying I don't understand Americans, what sort of country would have the mind set to re-elect a prick like him, that's why I don't think it was huge, for me it had to be a forgone conclusion that Biden would win, otherwise my faith in humanity and people rising from the shocking depths of despair he led you into would have been dashed, and if Trump would have won I would have been saying ”you know what you're a fucked up country get on with it ” so no not a surprise for me at all that Biden won the people come out in there record numbers to get rid of him, that tells me all about Americans that I need to know and my faith in you as a people to do the right thing has been upheld, so not huge for me just back to normality.

[Cornish Steve 3,103]

https://www.facebook.com/warren.bell.714/videos/10155512531395870

 

[Matt 8,295]

4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

https://www.facebook.com/warren.bell.714/videos/10155512531395870

 

It never gets old  

[Cornish Steve 3,103]

You laugh because otherwise you cry.

 

[Matt 8,295]

Brutal  

[MikeO 13,515]

Google loser.com

[Elston Gunnn 446]

Various parts of the world are experiencing an “era of madness.”  Such periods of collective insanity occur periodically, most often limited in scope and locale.  “We the people” have to own the mis- and disinformation we consume.

Willful ignorance is dangerously stupid.

Among the things I admired about conservatism was its attempt to balance a liberal emphasis on rights with a reminder about responsibility. But Trumpism is not conservative. Indeed, Trumpism has adopted the very worst form of late-20th century liberalism’s emphasis on rights talk, radical individualism. “I’m an American. Nobody can tell me what to do. Take your mask and shove it.” Trumpism’s radically individualistic, reactionary populism — a popular movement to return to a mythical past — is not faithful to conservatism, which is why those who have remained actual conservatives founded the Lincoln Project and similar groups. Trump’s enablers in Congress, virtually every single member of the House and the vast majority in the Senate, have been irresponsible repeatedly over the past four years. They have defaulted as leaders, becoming cowed followers of the increasingly radicalized, increasingly irrational Trump Party voting bases.  

So, the people. We have begun to see reports that a shockingly high % of Americans — Trump supporters, non-voters, and plenty of Dems, too — report that they pay little or no attention to politics and political issues. They are ignorant of even the broad outlines of policy issues that affect their lives. They are otherwise occupied, busy with life, working multiple jobs, committed to their church, raising children, helping neighbors, and ... watching sports.

The upshot, though, is policy/issue ignorance, deep ignorance, much of it willful, the product of choices made or choices avoided. If one makes a choice to believe the MSM is “all lies,” while Fox, OAN, Newsmax, and Q have discovered the hidden truth, one has willfully chosen to make oneself ignorant. But what you don’t know about crucial issues can harm you, even kill you. The line between ignorance and stupidity wears so thin as to become meaningless. A line is crossed, has been crossed, from unconcern to danger.

That danger is not limited to those who practice willful ignorance. For their surrender to ignorance/stupidity also immediately endangers those who are informed, have some elementary understanding of issues, still believe in democracy and science. The somewhat informed are held hostage to the uninformed; the pandemic’s waves of death are Exhibit A.

 

 

[holystove 671]

2 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

Various parts of the world are experiencing an “era of madness.”  Such periods of collective insanity occur periodically, most often limited in scope and locale.  “We the people” have to own the mis- and disinformation we consume.

Willful ignorance is dangerously stupid.

..

The upshot, though, is policy/issue ignorance, deep ignorance, much of it willful, the product of choices made or choices avoided. [...] But what you don’t know about crucial issues can harm you, even kill you. The line between ignorance and stupidity wears so thin as to become meaningless. A line is crossed, has been crossed, from unconcern to danger.

That danger is not limited to those who practice willful ignorance. For their surrender to ignorance/stupidity also immediately endangers those who are informed, have some elementary understanding of issues, still believe in democracy and science. The somewhat informed are held hostage to the uninformed.

 

Very good post.  I edited it to take out the parts that specifically refer to the USA.  If you read it now, it could be about pretty much every country in Europe too.  The US is definitely not alone in this.

Few countries, however, have had the misfortune of having the uninformed contrarian view get to a majority.  Thank God the US, for one, took a little step back to sanity with the election of Biden.  

[Sibdane 2,257]

1 hour ago, holystove said:

Very good post.  I edited it to take out the parts that specifically refer to the USA.  If you read it now, it could be about pretty much every country in Europe too.  The US is definitely not alone in this.

Few countries, however, have had the misfortune of having the uninformed contrarian view get to a majority.  Thank God the US, for one, took a little step back to sanity with the election of Biden.  

We hope so. Things have been crazy with how Trump is refusing to concede though. I'm curious to see what happens closer to inauguration day. Trump doesn't look like he's giving up, and his cult fanbase is right behind him. 

[Elston Gunnn 446]

42 minutes ago, holystove said:

The US is definitely not alone in this.

Few countries, however, have had the misfortune of having the uninformed contrarian view get to a majority.

My concern is that a large minority holds hostage the larger majority.  And it continues to this very moment.  Those who refuse to wear masks and who continue to gather mask-less indoors are holding sensible people hostage.  The uninformed, stubbornly refusing to behave with basic common sense, increasingly appear determined to remain uninformed obstructionists.  Their willful ignorance, become dangerous stupidity, continues to kill us.

Among our most fundamental problems in this emerging “era of madness” is the unintended consequences of our Electoral College system.  Clinton received about 3 million more votes than Trump in 2016, but Trump won a solid victory in the Electoral College.

Truth is, our Founding Fathers really did not “believe in” democracy.  They were American elitists, advocates of “virtuous republicanism” rather than what they understood as democratic “mobocracy.”

They had to pretend to trust “the people,” but they wrote into the Constitution several mechanisms by which to “filter” popular judgment.  Among those filters was the Electoral College, originally intended to allow “wiser men” to serve as Electors in each state, which wise Electors would select the President.

The Founders didn’t count on the development of political parties, and in fact opposed parties as selfish “factions” that would cause havoc.  But parties did almost immediately develop and over time gradually organized our politics at all levels.  That, along with the fact that both the U.S. Senate and the Electoral College have a built-in bias toward less-populated states, has resulted in the ongoing possibility of “minority government.”

That’s where we are now.  The Electoral College-enabled minority President has proved, repeatedly, in literally dozens of ways, a World Historical Mistake.  There’s every reason to think a minority of American voters, advantaged by our outmoded Electoral College, would have doubled down on this World Historical Mistake, had his total incompetence in the face of a World Historical Pandemic not brought him down.

Biden’s Electoral College victory exactly matches Trump’s in 2016 — 306-232.  But because Biden more than doubled Clinton's popular vote advantage over Trump, this time the popular vote was more accurately reflected in the Electoral College.  Biden’s narrow popular-vote wins in several battleground states did the trick, just as Trump’s even narrower 2016 wins in three key states made him President.

Biden’s task is overwhelming, because the defeated-but-tens-of-millions-strong minority retains significant destructive power.  That destructiveness will be on full, ugly display during the 2 special election campaigns in Georgia, the results of which will determine who controls the U.S. Senate for Biden’s first two years..

[Sibdane 2,257]

5 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

Biden’s task is overwhelming, because the defeated-but-tens-of-millions-strong minority retains significant destructive power.  That destructiveness will be on full, ugly display during the 2 special election campaigns in Georgia, the results of which will determine who controls the U.S. Senate for Biden’s first two years..

This is my major concern. The opposing sides will not support one or the other as president now regardless of good intentions or bad, and I feel it will be this way for a long time to come. 

[Elston Gunnn 446]

28 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

This is my major concern. The opposing sides will not support one or the other as president now regardless of good intentions or bad, and I feel it will be this way for a long time to come. 

I suppose it’s admitting a bias to say that right now I have no good intentions toward that (large?) portion of Trumpists whom you accurately characterized in an earlier post as a “cult fanbase.”  And on the other hand, it’s surely accurate to say that Biden has almost literally no cult fanbase.

One party is exhausted but now hopeful.  The other has many cultists among its numbers.

[Cornish Steve 3,103]

They found some missing votes here in Georgia: Nothing intentional - oversights that an audit is meant to find - and we're expecting certified results shortly with the same outcome: a Biden win.

[Matt 8,295]

8 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

They found some missing votes here in Georgia: Nothing intentional - oversights that an audit is meant to find - and we're expecting certified results shortly with the same outcome: a Biden win.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55006188

[markjazzbassist 3,339]

trump has lost every single legal battle and recount.  he needs to give up.  he's a pompous windbag

[Palfy 3,692]

4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

trump has lost every single legal battle and recount.  he needs to give up.  he's a pompous windbag

😂 but he’s not a loser he’s been robbed of the Presidency, you surely have to except that mate the whole world knows that 🤷‍♂️😂