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US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)


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  • 3 weeks later...
12 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Utterly infuriating that politicians are more interested in their job and team than actually doing their job. It’s disgusting and, even though I’m a liberal who thinks The Guardian shouldn’t be taken seriously, they’re spot on with that. It’s not hyperbole this time, republicans have said “there’s no consequences to dangerous actions if you’ve got money and power”. Bravo to the 6 that actually voted with a conscious 

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

Utterly infuriating that politicians are more interested in their job and team than actually doing their job. It’s disgusting and, even though I’m a liberal who thinks The Guardian shouldn’t be taken seriously, they’re spot on with that. It’s not hyperbole this time, republicans have said “there’s no consequences to dangerous actions if you’ve got money and power”. Bravo to the 6 that actually voted with a conscious 

A major problem here, there and everywhere. I wonder how many of the seven will be re-elected to the Republican party? Not many, I bet. A conscience is a rare commodity in politics.  

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Throwing this in here since Ted Cruz has become Trump's lackey, even after Trump labeled him Lyin' Ted. Now he's Flyin Ted. I swear, the more details that emerge regarding this absolute shit-show of a PR nightmare, the more it sounds like an episode of Veep. Fuck this guy, and his entire party. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
  • MikeO changed the title to US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)
3 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

I want to comment on this but it feels as if it's in the wrong thread...can't we be done with Drumpf once and for all?

I've changed the thread title.

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6 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

But then what happens with the Biden in charge thread?? 

MIKE I'M LOST AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO

😂I forgot there was a Biden in Charge thread, I'll merge the two then we can all be zen again. Sort of.

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  • 1 month later...
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14 hours ago, MikeO said:

This is a bit bad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58020494

But on the same subject; the west went into Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power, and now the Taliban are resurgent we're all pulling out? What exactly was the point of the last twenty years?

Yeah I’ve been reading articles all week about all the interpreters we left behind.  What we did like was waste trillions of tax payer dollars to do nothing.  We could have ended poverty and improved education, no we give overinflated contracts to defense firms and go to war.  America.

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13 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Yeah I’ve been reading articles all week about all the interpreters we left behind.  What we did like was waste trillions of tax payer dollars to do nothing.  We could have ended poverty and improved education, no we give overinflated contracts to defense firms and go to war.  America.

Very difficult one this we were never going to completely eradicate the Taliban, and were always going to look to withdraw at some time. I just feel to walk away after 20 years with no hope of peace has been a costly error, we should have been looking at brokering a deal the last 10 years or so were the Afghan government and the Taliban agreed on a power share of some form, and until that deal was agreed we stayed on in full, otherwise we have achieved nothing but misery for them and ourselves. 

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No one will ever win in Afghanistan. At the end of WW-I, my grandfather was shipped from the trenches of France to fight in the Afghan wars. I remember when everyone worried about Russian troops invading, but they were overcome by the Taliban. Sadly for its people, it's a no-win situation for the large powers. While the US should do the right thing and evacuate those who helped them, I see no point is pouring even more billions into nation-building. The people who are going to lose out the most, though, will be the country's women and girls.

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It is a tough one this as I don't think there would ever be a good time to withdraw. You could be there for 100 years and there would be no guarantee of a stable government. It will just descend in to chaos again, and no doubt result in even more resentment for the West for leaving high and dry.

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15 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

No one will ever win in Afghanistan. At the end of WW-I, my grandfather was shipped from the trenches of France to fight in the Afghan wars. I remember when everyone worried about Russian troops invading, but they were overcome by the Taliban. Sadly for its people, it's a no-win situation for the large powers. While the US should do the right thing and evacuate those who helped them, I see no point is pouring even more billions into nation-building. The people who are going to lose out the most, though, will be the country's women and girls.

I think a lot of people could have told them they should have left well alone, but this was an a American war to defend the shores of America, who had decided to invade because they were a breeding ground for terrorist which posed a real threat to the USA. Unlike Kuwait and Iraqi which was purely for the Oil reserves which made the Americans a huge profit after the costs of their expenditure to run the Gulf campaign. 
But going back to Afghanistan for the Americans to pull out the way they are whilst the Taliban are fighting at the gates of the town and cities that have already cost so many lives to Allied forces and residents is abhorrent in my opinion, they have created a shit fest of a unimaginable scale to leave the woman and children of Afghanistan to live with, thousands will be slaughtered because of their very small involvement with Americans, 25% of MP in government are women they will be killed for sure and possibly their families, this is another resounding success for America when it comes to world order. 
Good morning Vietnam. 

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6 hours ago, Palfy said:

I think a lot of people could have told them they should have left well alone, but this was an a American war to defend the shores of America, who had decided to invade because they were a breeding ground for terrorist which posed a real threat to the USA. Unlike Kuwait and Iraqi which was purely for the Oil reserves which made the Americans a huge profit after the costs of their expenditure to run the Gulf campaign. 
But going back to Afghanistan for the Americans to pull out the way they are whilst the Taliban are fighting at the gates of the town and cities that have already cost so many lives to Allied forces and residents is abhorrent in my opinion, they have created a shit fest of a unimaginable scale to leave the woman and children of Afghanistan to live with, thousands will be slaughtered because of their very small involvement with Americans, 25% of MP in government are women they will be killed for sure and possibly their families, this is another resounding success for America when it comes to world order. 
Good morning Vietnam. 

Defend America's shores? If that were the case, the target would have been Saudi Arabia. isn't that from where the more prominent terrorists emanate and/or or funded?

I agree with you regarding the plight of the Afghan population, but why aren't other nations or the UN stepping in?

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8 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Defend America's shores? If that were the case, the target would have been Saudi Arabia. isn't that from where the more prominent terrorists emanate and/or or funded?

I agree with you regarding the plight of the Afghan population, but why aren't other nations or the UN stepping in?

To reduce the chances of being a target. 

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17 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Defend America's shores? If that were the case, the target would have been Saudi Arabia. isn't that from where the more prominent terrorists emanate and/or or funded?

The American government at the time believed rightly or wrongly that Afghanistan was being used as a major training ground for terrorist organisations in particular Al Queeda, since 9/11 the Americans engaged on their own war on terror helped in the main by the British, and the backing of the UN but not on all policies, what the UN didn’t sanction the Americans still carried out such was the feeling inAmerica after 9/11.  
Now they and their Allies must be seen to be doing the right thing when it comes to their withdrawal, I’m pretty shocked at Biden for not intervening more on what will be a bloody aftermath for some Afghanistan’s and their families, I just expected more from Biden.  

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5 hours ago, Palfy said:

The American government at the time believed rightly or wrongly that Afghanistan was being used as a major training ground for terrorist organisations in particular Al Queeda, since 9/11 the Americans engaged on their own war on terror helped in the main by the British, and the backing of the UN but not on all policies, what the UN didn’t sanction the Americans still carried out such was the feeling inAmerica after 9/11.  
Now they and their Allies must be seen to be doing the right thing when it comes to their withdrawal, I’m pretty shocked at Biden for not intervening more on what will be a bloody aftermath for some Afghanistan’s and their families, I just expected more from Biden.  

It's easy to expect more of others, though. Why isn't Britain intervening? or France? or Germany? or the EU? or the League of Arab States? or the UN? or anybody? Is the US expected to continue ad infinitum pouring money and lives into nation-building? The outcome is certain to be nasty, but who's willing to step up and spend what the US has been spending for many years?

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5 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

It's easy to expect more of others, though. Why isn't Britain intervening? or France? or Germany? or the EU? or the League of Arab States? or the UN? or anybody? Is the US expected to continue ad infinitum pouring money and lives into nation-building? The outcome is certain to be nasty, but who's willing to step up and spend what the US has been spending for many years?

UK did and does, pretty sure that's true of Nato in general. I've not checked for a while though. None of the European countries (combined even!) have the economy to sustain it. Also don't have an economy largely driven by arms but that's another discussion entirely. 

I do think the Arab States should do more though. US does carry more than its fair share but it also puts itself there. 

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7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

It's easy to expect more of others, though. Why isn't Britain intervening? or France? or Germany? or the EU? or the League of Arab States? or the UN? or anybody? Is the US expected to continue ad infinitum pouring money and lives into nation-building? The outcome is certain to be nasty, but who's willing to step up and spend what the US has been spending for many years?

If you read my post properly you will see that I mentioned that the Brits had a part to play in this as one of the American allies who once again followed America in it’s policy against terrorism, but without doubt the Americans should be investing what ever it takes to secure Afghanistan families left to be slaughtered for aiding the Americans and it’s allies in this American policy to invade their country. So why shouldn’t they be responsible for the the most cost when it was there call to invade and they have a big enough budget to cover their own problems they created, unless of course you don’t see it as a problem that thousands will be slaughtered for helping the Americans in the Americans war on terrorism, they didn’t right it down in history as the American Afghanistan war because it was the Brits French German Canadian or anyone else’s idea to invade Afghanistan, it was the Americans in the storm of 9/11 to smash Al Qaeda and kill Bin Laden because they violated the American mainland, not a problem with that but when you’re done do the decent thing and clean your shit up don’t hang people out to die because you have no further use of them, learn from what happened to civilians in Vietnam that where left to be slaughtered as calibrators in their thousands, they shouldn’t be letting history potential repeat it’s self or should they Steve?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Who would have thought that Biden would turnout to be just as big a fool than Trump, for political bullshit he chose 9/11 as the date to completely withdraw from Afghanistan like it was some sort of symbolic game and would make him look good in the annuals of history, Truly fucked up by doing that with no plan in place, now  the Americans are re-enacting Saigon 1975 running for their lives and leaving  thousands who helped them to be slaughtered, Biden needs to be put in a care home to live out his last few years, at least Trump had the foresight    to say they would negotiate a deal with the Taliban before they left. 

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21 hours ago, Palfy said:

Who would have thought that Biden would turnout to be just as big a fool than Trump, for political bullshit he chose 9/11 as the date to completely withdraw from Afghanistan like it was some sort of symbolic game and would make him look good in the annuals of history, Truly fucked up by doing that with no plan in place, now  the Americans are re-enacting Saigon 1975 running for their lives and leaving  thousands who helped them to be slaughtered, Biden needs to be put in a care home to live out his last few years, at least Trump had the foresight    to say they would negotiate a deal with the Taliban before they left. 

i think this national security advisor said it best, it's not on the USA, it's on the afghans. 

 

"Despite the fact that we spent 20 years and tens of billions of dollars to give the best equipment, the best training and the best capacity to the Afghan national security forces, we could not give them the will," Sullivan said on NBC. "And they ultimately decided that they would not fight for Kabul and they would not fight for the country."

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2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

i think this national security advisor said it best, it's not on the USA, it's on the afghans. 

 

"Despite the fact that we spent 20 years and tens of billions of dollars to give the best equipment, the best training and the best capacity to the Afghan national security forces, we could not give them the will," Sullivan said on NBC. "And they ultimately decided that they would not fight for Kabul and they would not fight for the country."

It’s all about money isn’t it, and fuck the civilians and their families left to be slaughtered, I’ve listened to your politicians on both sides and more believe Biden has completely messed this up, I have listened to your political journalists and most say Biden got it wrong, even your military leaders have said it’s wrong even the people who served there say it’s wrong. The lives of the Americans killed there have been for what, it should have been a negotiated withdrawal with the Taliban with policies signed agreed and but in place before any withdrawals where implemented, but no Biden decides that 9/11 will be the date like it’s a game a little bit of political fun, you can just imagine him sat round the table in the Oval Office telling his staff, hey guys let’s leave on 9/11 we invaded because of 9/11 so wouldn’t it be cool to leave on 9/11, the American people will love that. I literally feel repulsed and sick about what’s happening in Afghanistan and what’s going to happen to it’s people, what must it be like to have that much fear for your life that you would hang on to the outside of a plane and fall to your death rather than take your chances with an un negotiated Taliban take over. 

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7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

It’s all about money isn’t it, and fuck the civilians and their families left to be slaughtered, I’ve listened to your politicians on both sides and more believe Biden has completely messed this up, I have listened to your political journalists and most say Biden got it wrong, even your military leaders have said it’s wrong even the people who served there say it’s wrong. The lives of the Americans killed there have been for what, it should have been a negotiated withdrawal with the Taliban with policies signed agreed and but in place before any withdrawals where implemented, but no Biden decides that 9/11 will be the date like it’s a game a little bit of political fun, you can just imagine him sat round the table in the Oval Office telling his staff, hey guys let’s leave on 9/11 we invaded because of 9/11 so wouldn’t it be cool to leave on 9/11, the American people will love that. I literally feel repulsed and sick about what’s happening in Afghanistan and what’s going to happen to it’s people, what must it be like to have that much fear for your life that you would hang on to the outside of a plane and fall to your death rather than take your chances with an un negotiated Taliban take over. 

Feel that but I don't believe for a minute that the Taliban were ever coming to the negotiating table; didn't need to, just waited and then moved in on their own terms.

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Just now, MikeO said:

Feel that but I don't believe for a minute that the Taliban were ever coming to the negotiating table; didn't need to, just waited and then moved in on their own terms.

They did sit around the table with Trump after he announced that there would be a withdrawal, he didn’t get the job done because he lost the election, it was Biden and his administration who should have taken on what Trump started. Let’s not forget until Biden set that date and started removing troops the Taliban had no control in any region of Afghanistan they had pockets of resistance, no American or allied forces had been engaged in combat for quite a while, they were mainly training and giving support to the government forces, yet the number of American and allied soldiers was enough to deter the Taliban from all out attack on government forces. 

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

You seriously believe the taliban were going to be straight with that gullible numpty?

I believe there should have been a negotiated withdrawal with the Americans no matter who was President, and this should have been agreed and supported by the UN, with the threat of military action against the Taliban if they broke agreements and committed crimes against the civilian population, that’s who we should be looking out for especially those who supported the Americans and allies, and the women who were encouraged to take up posts in politics and education, they have the most to fear by the way Biden implemented the withdrawal, surely even the most hardened Biden supporters can’t but feel that this has turned out to be an unmitigated disaster by Biden and his inner circle. 

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I understand you are upset palfy, I just don’t think we had any business there in the first place.  In america  schools they love to talk about how we were tops in the world post WWII because that war gave generated so much money and helped establish the middle class.  Ever since then politicians think the best way to solve the failing economy is to just have another war!  Seriously.  They do it for the economic production, it’s sickening.  We shouldn’t have been there, or Iraq; or Kuwait, it’s not our place.  Those people have customs and history that have nothing to do with us.  Team america world police is not needed.  They need to work those things out themselves, else we get this current situation where we tried to change it and help and 20 years later it reverts back overnight because our way just isn’t the way.
 

lastly, why aren’t you pissed at your government?  Shouldn’t you be petitioning them to help and intervene?  Why us?

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1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

I understand you are upset palfy, I just don’t think we had any business there in the first place.  In america  schools they love to talk about how we were tops in the world post WWII because that war gave generated so much money and helped establish the middle class.  Ever since then politicians think the best way to solve the failing economy is to just have another war!  Seriously.  They do it for the economic production, it’s sickening.  We shouldn’t have been there, or Iraq; or Kuwait, it’s not our place.  Those people have customs and history that have nothing to do with us.  Team america world police is not needed.  They need to work those things out themselves, else we get this current situation where we tried to change it and help and 20 years later it reverts back overnight because our way just isn’t the way.
 

lastly, why aren’t you pissed at your government?  Shouldn’t you be petitioning them to help and intervene?  Why us?

I am pissed with my government we have blindly followed America and it’s war on terrorism for years, 9/11 was the reason America waged war in Afghanistan, America had been attacked in a way never witnessed before the world’s super power was rocked, and Bush Jr and his government were determined someone was going to pay to appease the American people and put the USA right back to the top, and that was Afghanistan for allowing terrorist organisations to work in it’s borders, so the USA Afghan war is born out of vengeance for the 9/11 attacks, so to legitimise what it was going to do America canvases support for it’s actions and like the lap dog we are when it comes to the USA we blindly followed. We did the same when the Americans lied about chemical weapons in Iraqi that didn’t exist, simply because America wanted to get rid of Sadam and secure the oil fields, another war that they instigated and lead and we blindly followed, they call what we have a speacial relationship imo America puts pressure on us to do their bidding and we follow because economically we are scared not to. America use to be looked at as a power for good over evil not anymore America is becoming the evil and what they have done to the Afghan people is beyond evil, and yes once again we have followed. The only real power for good is the EU and they get it wrong a lot of the time, but they are fundamentally honest and try to do the right thing, America as we are are led by scheming liars and to think we left the EU to become closer to the USA economically and politically god help us. 

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12 hours ago, Palfy said:

 Let’s not forget until Biden set that date and started removing troops the Taliban had no control in any region of Afghanistan they had pockets of resistance, no American or allied forces had been engaged in combat for quite a while, they were mainly training and giving support to the government forces, yet the number of American and allied soldiers was enough to deter the Taliban from all out attack on government forces. 

Totally agree. Some 3500 American soldiers, I think. And not a casualty since February 2020. Not sure what America was spending on keeping its soldiers there, but I'm sure it was a drop compared to their annual military spend. The whole thing is an abject failure on Biden's part - and of American foreign policy. Russia and China circling, Pakistan will need to cut deals with Taliban to prevent insurgents crossing the border. American sphere of interest in the region will be zero. Maybe, they don't care now, but they will if the expected rise in jihadists start using Afghanistan as a base again. 

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9 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

lastly, why aren’t you pissed at your government?  Shouldn’t you be petitioning them to help and intervene?  Why us?

Because the US is the only country capable of doing so? We are pissed at out our government. but it is completely ineffectual. Europe is completely incapable of defending itself within its own borders (see Bosnia), never mind somewhere further afield. America will limp out of Afghanistan the way the British and the Russians did before. 

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7 minutes ago, Formby said:

Because the US is the only country capable of doing so? We are pissed at out our government. but it is completely ineffectual. Europe is completely incapable of defending itself within its own borders (see Bosnia), never mind somewhere further afield. America will limp out of Afghanistan the way the British and the Russians did before. 

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  I’m not sure why we need to be the global police.  I’m all for isolationism, let’s worry about fixing the ills in our own country first before we try and mess with other countries.  We have mass poverty, violence, crime, etc, let’s work on righting those wrongs first in America.

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1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  I’m not sure why we need to be the global police.  I’m all for isolationism, let’s worry about fixing the ills in our own country first before we try and mess with other countries.  We have mass poverty, violence, crime, etc, let’s work on righting those wrongs first in America.

America have for many years used the British and the rest of Europe as a buffer between them and the Russians, America doesn’t want a war on it’s own soil but have always been prepared to finance it on someone else’s soil. But now the dynamics have changed and the power is moving to the likes of China and Russia, they even mess with your security and Political systems knowing fully well you know but won’t do nothing about it, look at China’s state news it has been taking the piss out of America because what has happened over the last week or so, look at North Korea absolutely taking the piss out of America and Trump for years with no fear of reprisals, America’s dominance in the world as a leader for what’s right has been compromised by the Trump administration and Biden has possibly just put the final nail in the coffin of America having a meaningful input into world politics because they can’t be trusted. So take your military and weapons back to America and fight your own wars on your soil on your own, as a country you’ve been threatening it for years have the balls to do it you don’t need us, or wait do you?

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2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  

Do you mean the UK or Europe? The last time I checked American military spend was greater than all the other countries in the world combined! Our military capability is insignificant compared to yours. Just look at the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. The British could barely hold Basra or Helmand. Our weapons didn't even work in the desert.

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10 minutes ago, Formby said:

Do you mean the UK or Europe? The last time I checked American military spend was greater than all the other countries in the world combined! Our military capability is insignificant compared to yours. Just look at the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. The British could barely hold Basra or Helmand. Our weapons didn't even work in the desert.

i understand we are massive compared to others, but surely the Uk gov (you're not in eu so i don't think you get access to their military anymore?) has enough to beat some rebels in the desert.  it wasn't an actual war, it was an excuse for economic production and defense spending.

 

i'm laughing at these republicans "why end this, look what happened".  fact of the matter is they don't care one iota about the people there, they just care about the defense spending and wanting another war for the economy.  don't for one second think the outcry is about the people, it's not.

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37 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i understand we are massive compared to others, but surely the Uk gov (you're not in eu so i don't think you get access to their military anymore?) has enough to beat some rebels in the desert.  it wasn't an actual war, it was an excuse for economic production and defense spending.

 

i'm laughing at these republicans "why end this, look what happened".  fact of the matter is they don't care one iota about the people there, they just care about the defense spending and wanting another war for the economy.  don't for one second think the outcry is about the people, it's not.

The EU doesn't have a military anyway, so in or out is irrelevant.

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53 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

but surely the Uk gov (you're not in eu so i don't think you get access to their military anymore?) has enough to beat some rebels in the desert. 

Those 'rebels in the desert' have just humbled the US. It's the kind of disparaging terminology that results in military overconfidence and ultimate failure. The British, the Russians never succeeded in holding Afghanistan. There's a lesson there. I am very sure the US, the UK and EU troops, by the end of their tours, would have realised what they were really up against - forbidding terrain, forbidding heat and a determined and resourceful enemy.  

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3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  I’m not sure why we need to be the global police.  I’m all for isolationism, let’s worry about fixing the ills in our own country first before we try and mess with other countries.  We have mass poverty, violence, crime, etc, let’s work on righting those wrongs first in America.

But when The Orange Man did exactly that he was accused of xenophobia, and of wrecking all of our alliances. That was literally the policies behind Make American Great Again - balancing out trade tariffs/imbalances, and leaning more on regional allies to hand regional issues. I'm not saying he was totally successful, or not a bull in a china shop in his approach, but he had a some wins for sure, despite all his MANY failings and fucked up demeanor. He was the one that actually pulled almost all of the combat troops out of Afghanistan, leaving the contingent of special forces and advisors, instead of infantry and armor.

 

"Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" is about the only way you can deal, IMO, with the Taliban and such - but it only works if they know good and damn well you will wield said Big Stick. Point in case, look at what's happening today. The Taliban has zero fear of Biden wacking them with a stick. What should have been a long overdue tactical withdrawal has turned into a dumpster fire. This could be our worst foreign policy disaster in years. And regardless of who is in the White House, NO ONE should be happy that we have created in International shitshow.

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7 minutes ago, Formby said:

Those 'rebels in the desert' have just humbled the US. It's the kind of disparaging terminology that results in military overconfidence and ultimate failure. The British, the Russians never succeeded in holding Afghanistan. There's a lesson there. I am very sure the US, the UK and EU troops, by the end of their tours, would have realised what they were really up against - forbidding terrain, forbidding heat and a determined and resourceful enemy.  

Very much like Viet Nam, in respects to an unconventional enemy that is willing to absorb disproportionate losses and play the long game, be that 5 years or 30.

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1 hour ago, Formby said:

Those 'rebels in the desert' have just humbled the US. It's the kind of disparaging terminology that results in military overconfidence and ultimate failure. The British, the Russians never succeeded in holding Afghanistan. There's a lesson there. I am very sure the US, the UK and EU troops, by the end of their tours, would have realised what they were really up against - forbidding terrain, forbidding heat and a determined and resourceful enemy.  

 

they didn't humble us!  we left and they defeated the afghans.  we defeated them and controlled the country comfortably for 20 years with a couple thousand troops that's it.

 

1 hour ago, Ghoat said:

But when The Orange Man did exactly that he was accused of xenophobia, and of wrecking all of our alliances. That was literally the policies behind Make American Great Again - balancing out trade tariffs/imbalances, and leaning more on regional allies to hand regional issues. I'm not saying he was totally successful, or not a bull in a china shop in his approach, but he had a some wins for sure, despite all his MANY failings and fucked up demeanor. He was the one that actually pulled almost all of the combat troops out of Afghanistan, leaving the contingent of special forces and advisors, instead of infantry and armor.

 

"Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" is about the only way you can deal, IMO, with the Taliban and such - but it only works if they know good and damn well you will wield said Big Stick. Point in case, look at what's happening today. The Taliban has zero fear of Biden wacking them with a stick. What should have been a long overdue tactical withdrawal has turned into a dumpster fire. This could be our worst foreign policy disaster in years. And regardless of who is in the White House, NO ONE should be happy that we have created in International shitshow.

 

i am not a big trump fan, but i am not some partisan all good or all bad politico.  i liked some of the things trump did or stood for.  i'm ok saying that. i would hope some repubs could say the same about biden or obama. i liked his isolationism and his claims he would "end all the wars".  he didn't do that (he didn't completely end them, so technically he didn't fulfill that promise) but he got the ball rolling.  i don't like team america world police thing.  people often don't realize (not saying this is you, you seem intelligent) that the far left and far right actually have some things they agree on, Bernie Sanders and Trump were both anti-china and pro-isolationism.  both were pro-US manufacturing and jobs and anti-amazon.

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3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

they didn't humble us!  we left and they defeated the afghans.  we defeated them and controlled the country comfortably for 20 years with a couple thousand troops that's it.

America’s humiliation is more American hubris - The Washington Post

Military and Washington's policymakers reflect on the Afghan collapse - The Washington Post

The Taliban were never defeated militarily. They just melted away into the mountains, biding their time. You were in control, in essence, of what they let you control - nothing. It happened to the British in the 19th century and Russia in the 20th.  

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It is an abject failure of all US, UK and other Nato forces that were in Afghanistan to let it get to this, and worst of all in my opinion, is to let it continue. 

These countries can pat themselves on the back about how they are going to look after those that helped the various nations, but what about all those innocent people they have now failed and have surrendered to a life under a terrorist organisation that treats women like animals? 

My heart goes out to them all, I can't even comprehend how scared you must be to risk falling off a flying plane just to try and get out. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Formby said:

America’s humiliation is more American hubris - The Washington Post

Military and Washington's policymakers reflect on the Afghan collapse - The Washington Post

The Taliban were never defeated militarily. They just melted away into the mountains, biding their time. You were in control, in essence, of what they let you control - nothing. It happened to the British in the 19th century and Russia in the 20th.  

Irony is that the CIA actively backed the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union (stictly speaking not Russian) invasion, they were very much seen as the good guys; and the Taliban came from the Mujahideen.

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35 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Irony is that the CIA actively backed the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union (stictly speaking not Russian) invasion, they were very much seen as the good guys; and the Taliban came from the Mujahideen.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We were all allied with Stalin. 

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9 hours ago, Ghoat said:

But when The Orange Man did exactly that he was accused of xenophobia, and of wrecking all of our alliances. That was literally the policies behind Make American Great Again - balancing out trade tariffs/imbalances, and leaning more on regional allies to hand regional issues. I'm not saying he was totally successful, or not a bull in a china shop in his approach, but he had a some wins for sure, despite all his MANY failings and fucked up demeanor. He was the one that actually pulled almost all of the combat troops out of Afghanistan, leaving the contingent of special forces and advisors, instead of infantry and armor.

 

"Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" is about the only way you can deal, IMO, with the Taliban and such - but it only works if they know good and damn well you will wield said Big Stick. Point in case, look at what's happening today. The Taliban has zero fear of Biden wacking them with a stick. What should have been a long overdue tactical withdrawal has turned into a dumpster fire. This could be our worst foreign policy disaster in years. And regardless of who is in the White House, NO ONE should be happy that we have created in International shitshow.

Trump's main issue was his childish behavior and lack of self-awareness. That won't get anyone on your side. 

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5 hours ago, Formby said:

America’s humiliation is more American hubris - The Washington Post

Military and Washington's policymakers reflect on the Afghan collapse - The Washington Post

The Taliban were never defeated militarily. They just melted away into the mountains, biding their time. You were in control, in essence, of what they let you control - nothing. It happened to the British in the 19th century and Russia in the 20th.  

That's the thing with Afghanistan. We went there knowing how difficult it would be to make an impact. We can't handle/know that terrain, and all the infighting with the different tribes is another issue we weren't prepared for.

Nobody wanted us there but us. I'll admit that when 9/11 happened I did want someone or something to pay the price, so I was all about making that happen. We just took the wrong route. I do find it pretty incredible that Democrats hated when Trump decided to pull out of foreign wars, and I now find it equally incredible that Republicans are complaining that we're actually do it.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?

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9 hours ago, MikeO said:

Irony is that the CIA actively backed the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union (stictly speaking not Russian) invasion, they were very much seen as the good guys; and the Taliban came from the Mujahideen.

Absolutely. The CIA love proxy wars that serve American geopolitical interests. Then complain when countries like Pakistan do the same thing. Rory Stewart made a really good series about Afghanistan (British India) a few years ago - The Great Game. Worth watching if you're interested. Empires have a bad habit of behaving badly and believing in their own invincibility. It never ends well.

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The BBC fact checked Biden’s last address to his country, he was very economical with the truth, the one that stood out for me was when he said we never went there to nation build, yet in 2001 and 2003 he completely said the opposite, he said they were going to help the Afghans form a government and set up elections, now let’s give him the benefit of the doubt in 2001 he might have slightly got mixed up but to reiterate it again in 2003 dispels that theory, if that’s not called nation building I don’t no what is, he’s completely messed up with massive consequences for the Afghan people the world knows, but he wants to blame the Afghan military accusing them of having no fight, again a lie and fact checked since the formation of the the Afghan forces put together by the Americans and the British over 70,000 Afghan service men have lost their lives fighting the Taliban does that sound like they’ve got no fight. 

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