Brexit...

[Matt]

5 hours ago, MikeO said:

Bugger the kids, they can look after themselves; we're going on loads of skiing holidays (spending kids inheritance).

Didn’t realise you’d become a Tory MP mate

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, Matt said:

Didn’t realise you’d become a Tory MP mate

If I was a Tory MP I'd have more money than I could spend in a lifetime! So the cherubs would still be well minted.

[EFC-Paul]

5 hours ago, MikeO said:

Bugger the kids, they can look after themselves; we're going on loads of skiing holidays (spending kids inheritance).

They've got plenty of time to fall out of favour mate

[MikeO]

13 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said:

They've got plenty of time to fall out of favour mate

I like to think of it as giving themselves their independence Paul. 

[Palfy]

Are we getting closer to reversing the Brexit vote now that the Brexiteers trump card of trade deals with America are looking as distant as the E.U giving us the exit deal we need, I fear we are heading for some very tough times a head, and the likely hood of us been cast into the wilderness of no trade deals and paying through the nose to export our goods is becoming too be reality.

Corbyn and Labour need to join forces with the Lib Dems and SNP and force the government to hold a new referendum, now we can see that it looks like there's nothing good coming from the leave victory.

[rubecula]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Are we getting closer to reversing the Brexit vote now that the Brexiteers trump card of trade deals with America are looking as distant as the E.U giving us the exit deal we need, I fear we are heading for some very tough times a head, and the likely hood of us been cast into the wilderness of no trade deals and paying through the nose to export our goods is becoming too be reality.

Corbyn and Labour need to join forces with the Lib Dems and SNP and force the government to hold a new referendum, now we can see that it looks like there's nothing good coming from the leave victory.

No

[Palfy]

7 hours ago, rubecula said:

No

Oh

[rubecula]

no matter which way you voted you must see that a second referendum would destroy democracy.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

no matter which way you voted you must see that a second referendum would destroy democracy.

Not really. The landscape has completely changed in a very short period of time. There’s now more awareness, more facts and things that were assumed are no longer viable. If anything, a 2nd referendum is more responsible. Plus, if Leave won again, it really should put the democracy debate to bed  

[Matt]

I don’t agree with these coalitions either, we need more variety, not red vs blue. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

no matter which way you voted you must see that a second referendum would destroy democracy.

It would be a third, the one in 2016 was a second referendum, by your thinking that destroyed democracy (especially given the vote in the first was overwhelmingly, 67%, in).

Also, the 2016 cock-up was only ever advisory...

 

[London Blue]

15 hours ago, rubecula said:

no matter which way you voted you must see that a second referendum would destroy democracy.

How can giving people a say on what an actual Brexit would like be anti-democratic?

Brexit was a vague notion during the referendum, nobody could say exactly what it would look like and how it would work, and now 2 years later we still don't know.

When a final deal has been agreed it should be put before the people with 3 choices.

1) Accept the deal.

2) Refuse the deal and leave the EU with no deal.

3) Remain in the EU as we are now.

[rubecula]

34 minutes ago, London Blue said:

How can giving people a say on what an actual Brexit would like be anti-democratic?

Brexit was a vague notion during the referendum, nobody could say exactly what it would look like and how it would work, and now 2 years later we still don't know.

When a final deal has been agreed it should be put before the people with 3 choices.

1) Accept the deal.

2) Refuse the deal and leave the EU with no deal.

3) Remain in the EU as we are now.

would hav agreed with you if you had not put in third choice   we voted to leave and we voted in the government  I am not a tory by the way  but  I trust the opinions of the people who voted,  the tories are dealing with the exit from the EU  and I can not abide Anarchists

[London Blue]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

would hav agreed with you if you had not put in third choice   we voted to leave and we voted in the government  I am not a tory by the way  but  I trust the opinions of the people who voted,  the tories are dealing with the exit from the EU  and I can not abide Anarchists

But having looked at what Brexit actually means shouldn't people be given the chance to change their mind if they wish to, is that not the very purpose of democracy to give people choice?

After all when you make a big purchase there is a "Cooling off period" where people can on reflection change their mind once they have thought through the implications, shouldn't this be extended to the biggest decision of a generation?

The Torries are dealing with Brexit very badly.

We still do not know if we will be part of the following:

Space Agency, Nuclear Commission,  various Science Agencies,  Disease Control, Chemicals Agency, Aviation, GNSS (tracking satellites), Intellectual property rights, Fusion Energy, and Research Council to name but a few. All of which will have a massive impact on the UK.

Its a fucking mess.

[Matt]

8 hours ago, rubecula said:

would hav agreed with you if you had not put in third choice   we voted to leave and we voted in the government  I am not a tory by the way  but  I trust the opinions of the people who voted,  the tories are dealing with the exit from the EU  and I can not abide Anarchists

Voting to leave is not the same as voting on how to do it though. 

Plus, how undemocratic would it be to deny people who are now old enough to vote a chance on how their future is defined? 

[rubecula]

12 hours ago, London Blue said:

But having looked at what Brexit actually means shouldn't people be given the chance to change their mind if they wish to, is that not the very purpose of democracy to give people choice?

After all when you make a big purchase there is a "Cooling off period" where people can on reflection change their mind once they have thought through the implications, shouldn't this be extended to the biggest decision of a generation?

The Torries are dealing with Brexit very badly.

We still do not know if we will be part of the following:

Space Agency, Nuclear Commission,  various Science Agencies,  Disease Control, Chemicals Agency, Aviation, GNSS (tracking satellites), Intellectual property rights, Fusion Energy, and Research Council to name but a few. All of which will have a massive impact on the UK.

Its a fucking mess.

what does it mean?  we all have different opinions on that … and it has not happened yet.

when you make a big purchase you get a chance to try it out before you send it back.

tories are doing badly?  how do you know?  nobody has done this before.

no we have no idea as yet,  so lets wait and see instead of jumping yp and down and throwing tantrums or what ever we will be in or out of these things and a good point can be made for either argument.

people who claim it is a mess usually started to churn it into a mess in the first place.

[rubecula]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Voting to leave is not the same as voting on how to do it though. 

Plus, how undemocratic would it be to deny people who are now old enough to vote a chance on how their future is defined? 

no it isn'tt but voting in a government to deal with these situations is not something I would turn my back on either.  your second point is valid though,

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, rubecula said:

no it isn'ttt but voting in a government to deal with these situations is not something I would turn my back on either.

Which is why we didn't need the referendum in the first place.

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, rubecula said:

no it isn'ttt but voting in a government to deal with these situations is not something I would turn my back on either.  your second point is valid though,

So you’re comfortable with the current setup in charge?

[rubecula]

1 minute ago, MikeO said:

Which is why we didn't need the referendum in the first place.

agreed 100%

1 minute ago, Matt said:

So you’re comfortable with the current setup in charge?

Not comfortable no but willing to trust the opinions of the millions who are.

[Palfy]

Now that the Tories new Home Secretary has spoken out against his parties own manifesto on lmagration, and wants to encourage more migrant workers, do the Brexiteers feel they have been betrayed again by the Brexit vision they were sold  and voted for, in reality most if not all the big issues that Boris and his team used to gain your votes are becoming unattainable. 

That is why if I voted out I would be demanding a second referendum so I could cast my vote with more knowledge of what out means instead of the lies that were told by Boris. 

[Matt]

4 hours ago, rubecula said:

agreed 100%

Not comfortable no but willing to trust the opinions of the millions who are.

Honestly, trusting other people’s opinions is a dangerous game in general, especially in politics!

[Bailey]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

Now that the Tories new Home Secretary has spoken out against his parties own manifesto on lmagration, and wants to encourage more migrant workers, do the Brexiteers feel they have been betrayed again by the Brexit vision they were sold  and voted for, in reality most if not all the big issues that Boris and his team used to gain your votes are becoming unattainable. 

That is why if I voted out I would be demanding a second referendum so I could cast my vote with more knowledge of what out means instead of the lies that were told by Boris. 

I didnt vote but whilst i was leaning towards voting out I would have also actively encouraged more immigration. Why would you not want more people of required skills to come into the country?

I know a lot of people I spoke to in Portsmouth (mainly of low income/benefit scroungers) wouldnt agree but I would argue that they are using immigration to cover their own misgivings.

Furthermore I would also add that anyone that voted out was primarily concerned with having more control of their borders. Whether they perceived that to be more or less immigration is down to their own research and what opinion they believed.

[London Blue]

9 hours ago, rubecula said:

no we have no idea as yet,  so lets wait and see instead of jumping yp and down and throwing tantrums or what ever we will be in or out of these things and a good point can be made for either argument.

people who claim it is a mess usually started to churn it into a mess in the first place.

I'm not throwing a tantrum, neither are the majority of people who question how this government is handling the Brexit process. If you look at the long and varied list of people who have very real concerns about what the government are or are not doing you get the idea that its not just a few "trouble makers".

I have done many things in my life I am not proud of, but I certainly did not create this mess!!

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, Bailey said:

I didnt vote but whilst i was leaning towards voting out I would have also actively encouraged more immigration. Why would you not want more people of required skills to come into the country?

I know a lot of people I spoke to in Portsmouth (mainly of low income/benefit scroungers) wouldnt agree but I would argue that they are using immigration to cover their own misgivings.

Furthermore I would also add that anyone that voted out was primarily concerned with having more control of their borders. Whether they perceived that to be more or less immigration is down to their own research and what opinion they believed.

Once again Bailey you have completely missed the point of what I said which was that the Tories manifesto said they were aiming to get immigration down to the tens of thousands, and now there own home secretary is saying no we need more than the hundred plus we are already letting in.

So do people who voted out once again feel betrayed by Boris and the out campaign that they were lied to on the big issues of less immigration, more money for the NHS, and better trade deals with the rest of the world with the USA being one which is going completely in the opposite direction.

So based on the above and how Brexit is being handled if you had voted out would you want a second referendum so you could cast your vote based on more knowledge of what Brexit really looked like rather than the lies told by Boris and the out campaign, if I had voted out I know I would want the opportunity to reflect on my decision, because I would feel it wasn't the Brexit I had been promised.

 

[Bailey]

On 04/06/2018 at 05:20, Palfy said:

Once again Bailey you have completely missed the point of what I said which was that the Tories manifesto said they were aiming to get immigration down to the tens of thousands, and now there own home secretary is saying no we need more than the hundred plus we are already letting in.

So do people who voted out once again feel betrayed by Boris and the out campaign that they were lied to on the big issues of less immigration, more money for the NHS, and better trade deals with the rest of the world with the USA being one which is going completely in the opposite direction.

So based on the above and how Brexit is being handled if you had voted out would you want a second referendum so you could cast your vote based on more knowledge of what Brexit really looked like rather than the lies told by Boris and the out campaign, if I had voted out I know I would want the opportunity to reflect on my decision, because I would feel it wasn't the Brexit I had been promised.

 

We arent talking about their manifesto, we are talking about the Brexit vote. Absolutely nowhere in thr proposed vote terms did it say that immigration qould be reduced. Any politician that said anything that may or may not happen for/against Brexit was stating their opinion and not what would happen.

The vote was a question of being in or out. If you vote out you have to trust the government in power at the time to handle the exit process. If you dont like how thats going, you can vote for a different party, potentially offering a 2nd referendum. If I remember rightly that didnt work out too well for the Lib Dems. No-one was promised anything.

[rubecula]

On ‎04‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 05:20, Palfy said:

Once again Bailey you have completely missed the point of what I said which was that the Tories manifesto said they were aiming to get immigration down to the tens of thousands, and now there own home secretary is saying no we need more than the hundred plus we are already letting in.

So do people who voted out once again feel betrayed by Boris and the out campaign that they were lied to on the big issues of less immigration, more money for the NHS, and better trade deals with the rest of the world with the USA being one which is going completely in the opposite direction.

So based on the above and how Brexit is being handled if you had voted out would you want a second referendum so you could cast your vote based on more knowledge of what Brexit really looked like rather than the lies told by Boris and the out campaign, if I had voted out I know I would want the opportunity to reflect on my decision, because I would feel it wasn't the Brexit I had been promised.

 

I didn't expect the first one and never expected the result we got,  so I was surprised when some folks were wanting a second one

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, Bailey said:

We arent talking about their manifesto, we are talking about the Brexit vote. Absolutely nowhere in thr proposed vote terms did it say that immigration qould be reduced. Any politician that said anything that may or may not happen for/against Brexit was stating their opinion and not what would happen.

The vote was a question of being in or out. If you vote out you have to trust the government in power at the time to handle the exit process. If you dont like how thats going, you can vote for a different party, potentially offering a 2nd referendum. If I remember rightly that didnt work out too well for the Lib Dems. No-one was promised anything.

They were promised that the NHS would receive an extra 350M a week it was even plastered over a bus, they were promised that immigration would dramatically fall because we would have control over the borders, they were promised it wouldn't cost us a penny to leave we would owe them nothing it's cost us 40billion or more and we will still have to contribute for years to the E.U pension fund.

These were all promises broken by the leave campaign who's main spokesman is in the cabinet.

[rubecula]

On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 21:36, Palfy said:

They were promised that the NHS would receive an extra 350M a week it was even plastered over a bus, they were promised that immigration would dramatically fall because we would have control over the borders, they were promised it wouldn't cost us a penny to leave we would owe them nothing it's cost us 40billion or more and we will still have to contribute for years to the E.U pension fund.

These were all promises broken by the leave campaign who's main spokesman is in the cabinet.

sorry about disagreeing with you Palfy  but we have not left yet  so all that you say may one day be true or it may just be scare mongering.

[Matt]

8 hours ago, rubecula said:

sorry about disagreeing with you Palfy  but we have not left yet  so all that you say may one day be true or it may just be scare mongering.

The next day after the result, politicians were backtracking on the NHS bit. 

Immigration won’t change dramatically because we always had control over our borders anyway. It was an excuse to point the finger to distract from the fact the government hadn’t addressed the supposed issue (not that I think there is one to start with). 

“We won’t pay anything to leave” was always a sales pitch without merit or foundation to turn heads. 

None of this is scaremongering. It’s simple fact, even clearer now than it was at the time leading up to th vote.