Brexit...

[johnh]

 

So you believe people who are pro-EU are all people who prefer to be political pawns for unelected and unremovable people, and who don't want the ability to hold lawmakers accountable?

 

'The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe'........Mikhail Gorbochev.

 

Sums up the EU, a benevolent dictatorship, though there a some in the EU who would argue with 'benevolent'.

[rubecula]

 

So you believe people who are pro-EU are all people who prefer to be political pawns for unelected and unremovable people, and who don't want the ability to hold lawmakers accountable?

No I don't, I never said that. Everyone who voted had a reason to

 

A/ vote and

 

B/ vote the way they did.

 

I do not argue with the people who voted either way.

[holystove]

 

No I don't, I never said that. Everyone who voted had a reason to

 

A/ vote and

 

B/ vote the way they did.

 

I do not argue with the people who voted either way.

 

 

But... you literally said

"the only change will be having the chance to hold lawmakers accountable. Britain will not float off into outerspace because we voted to not be a political pawn for unelected and unremovable people."

meaning inside the EU, you can't hold lawmakers accountable and you are a political pawn for unelected and unremovable people.. You literally said that is the only change from inside vs outside the EU.

regardless of the fact that what you wrote is factually incorrect; I was wondering if you realise the implication of your statement is that everyone who is for international cooperation EU-style are people that don't want accountable lawmakers and want to be ruled by unelected and removable people. Given how ridiculous that sounds, I thought it was a way to show how wrong your analysis is.

[rubecula]

I am actually in work right now so I will come back to you later if that is ok.

[Palfy]

We are still Europeans for gawds sake, the only change will be having the chance to hold lawmakers accountable. Britain will not float off into outerspace because we voted to not be a political pawn for unelected and unremovable people.

What laws have been made by the European Parliament and agreed by the UK government, are so unpalatable to you that you voted out.

[rubecula]

I am not trying to start an argument here. I voted to leave, but if the vote had gone the other way I would have accepted it.

 

Here in UK we have a democracy where we vote for our government. The EU has Mr Tusk and Mr Junckers who represent no political party as far as I am aware, however even if they do, NOBODY voted them into a position of power, they were appointed. Appointed by somebody that themselves were appointed I believe. That is not democracy in any way shape or form. That is why I voted to leave. Whoever we vote in in this country, be they good or poor at the job we have the opportunity to vote them out at the next election. If you disagree with this then that is your choice.

 

All I want is for folks to accept the democratic votes to leave and look for good points, not to get involved with a self fulfilling prophecy of doom and disasters. Yes it may be a bad thing, but at least it is the democratic will of the populace.

[holystove]

I am not trying to start an argument here. I voted to leave, but if the vote had gone the other way I would have accepted it.

 

Here in UK we have a democracy where we vote for our government. The EU has Mr Tusk and Mr Junckers who represent no political party as far as I am aware, however even if they do, NOBODY voted them into a position of power, they were appointed. Appointed by somebody that themselves were appointed I believe. That is not democracy in any way shape or form. That is why I voted to leave. Whoever we vote in in this country, be they good or poor at the job we have the opportunity to vote them out at the next election. If you disagree with this then that is your choice.

 

All I want is for folks to accept the democratic votes to leave and look for good points, not to get involved with a self fulfilling prophecy of doom and disasters. Yes it may be a bad thing, but at least it is the democratic will of the populace.

 

Tusk was selected for his position of President of the European Council by the members of the European Council, which he represents. Tusk represents the EU member governments. He was indeed not elected by the people of Europe, but why would people not represented by the position have to vote for it?

Juncker is president of the Commission, and was selected from the party that won the EU elections in 2014. Each EU member state government then put forth their candidate for commissioner. Juncker can't do anything without the consent of the EU parliament (and/or the Council which represents the member states).

 

Anyway, we've been over this before and if it didn't stick then, it probably won't now either. I just think it's important to keep in mind that even though you for some reason feel the EU is undemocratic, there is a strong factual basis for people to believe otherwise.

[Matt]

I am not trying to start an argument here. I voted to leave, but if the vote had gone the other way I would have accepted it.

 

Here in UK we have a democracy where we vote for our government. The EU has Mr Tusk and Mr Junckers who represent no political party as far as I am aware, however even if they do, NOBODY voted them into a position of power, they were appointed. Appointed by somebody that themselves were appointed I believe. That is not democracy in any way shape or form. That is why I voted to leave. Whoever we vote in in this country, be they good or poor at the job we have the opportunity to vote them out at the next election. If you disagree with this then that is your choice.

 

All I want is for folks to accept the democratic votes to leave and look for good points, not to get involved with a self fulfilling prophecy of doom and disasters. Yes it may be a bad thing, but at least it is the democratic will of the populace.

Rubes, a couple of points mate:

 

You'd accept it if it went the other way? I think Leavers don't understand why Remainers don't just give up and get on board. If the vote had gone the other way, Leavers probably would accept the result much easier because change wouldn't be anywhere near the same scale. I will never be able to "accept the result" for the following reasons;

1. The whole preparation for the referendum (advisory, not legally binding) was a farce from both sides. It was a popularity contest by self-serving politicians to secure their jobs, and not in the best interests of serving the British people. Imagine you're going to move house and asked the family what they think. The argument was along the lines of:

"well, we're sick of having the house covered in red paint and the tarmac on the road outside is shit, so lets leave"

"where to?"

"dunno, but somewhere we can paint our house our own colour and choose our own road. Oh, and we'll save money to invest in the kitchen"

"sounds great! whats the plan to move?"

"We don't have one, but fuck the council! We'll do what we want"

"Ok, but whats the plan?"

"The plan is we get control of our own house"

"OK, but how?"

....

....

"Anyone? How do we get control?"

....

......

..........

 

2. The preparation for the vote was a shamles. I really want to use a stronger word, but I can't think of one

3. How is isolating ourselves further from one of the most prosperous markets in the world a good thing?

4. 17% of citizens got to decide the future of the 100% - how is that democratic?

5. With Putin flexing his muscles and Trump fucking everything up, we need to stand together. This vote shows instability and weakness, something that will have Putin licking his lips at.

 

Then the other point, the "unelected". No one voted for Juncker? Indeed not, but Holystove has explained why that happens - another convenient fact that Brexit campaign forgot to educate people on before the vote. Oh, and no one voted for May, great democracy we have too...

 

Finally, and for the umpteenth time - IT WASN'T A DEMOCRATIC VOTE! We live in a parliamentary democracy, meaning the MPs have to make decisions, not the people. The referendum was an advisory opinion survey that was not prepared at all because the our elected fucknuts in charge were so arrogant they didn't think to bother, and when the pressue got higher, they flat out lied to peoples faces in order to secure their jobs.

 

That's why I cannot accept the vote, and why the catchphrases I hear from some Leavers make me

Edited March 31, 2017 by Matt

[johnh]

 

Tusk was selected for his position of President of the European Council by the members of the European Council, which he represents. Tusk represents the EU member governments. He was indeed not elected by the people of Europe, but why would people not represented by the position have to vote for it?

Juncker is president of the Commission, and was selected from the party that won the EU elections in 2014. Each EU member state government then put forth their candidate for commissioner. Juncker can't do anything without the consent of the EU parliament (and/or the Council which represents the member states).

 

Anyway, we've been over this before and if it didn't stick then, it probably won't now either. I just think it's important to keep in mind that even though you for some reason feel the EU is undemocratic, there is a strong factual basis for people to believe otherwise.

 

Well, Gorbochev thinks the EU is undemocratic and that, coming from an expert in such matters, says all we need to know.

[Formby]

 

4. 17% of citizens got to decide the future of the 100% - how is that democratic?

 

 

Less than 25% voted for the Tories in 2015. The last four general elections have all been won by governments polling less than 25%. Is that democratic? Most people seem to accept the outcome of the general election. I live in an area where my vote has counted for absolutely nothing because of FPTP. My complaints fall on deaf ears.

Edited March 31, 2017 by formby

[holystove]

 

Less than 25% voted for the Tories in 2015. The last four general elections have all been won by governments polling less than 25%. Is that democratic? Most people seem to accept the outcome of the general election. I live in an area where my vote has counted for absolutely nothing because of FPTP. My complaints fall on deaf ears.

 

you could use elements of any system to describe it as undemocratic or dictatorial .. but even though what you describe would seem undemocratic, it would obviously make zero sense to call the UK a dictatorship.

 

Theresa May has said a succesful EU is necessary for a succesful UK post brexit. I agree with her, and also about the opposite, that the EU will benefit if the UK is succesful post brexit. She has also said she wants a deep and special relationship with the EU. She obviously wouldn't say this if she didn't believe the core values of the EU align with the UK, democracy first among it.

 

The only ones campaigning for EU failure are UKIP and other rightwing idiots. Frankly, the fact that for some it's not enough the UK should succeed, but also the EU should fail, is beyond pathetic.

[Matt]

 

Less than 25% voted for the Tories in 2015. The last four general elections have all been won by governments polling less than 25%. Is that democratic? Most people seem to accept the outcome of the general election. I live in an area where my vote has counted for absolutely nothing because of FPTP. My complaints fall on deaf ears.

this wasn't an election though.

[MikeO]

I am not trying to start an argument here. I voted to leave, but if the vote had gone the other way I would have accepted it.

 

Here in UK we have a democracy where we vote for our government. The EU has Mr Tusk and Mr Junckers who represent no political party as far as I am aware, however even if they do, NOBODY voted them into a position of power, they were appointed. Appointed by somebody that themselves were appointed I believe. That is not democracy in any way shape or form. That is why I voted to leave. Whoever we vote in in this country, be they good or poor at the job we have the opportunity to vote them out at the next election. If you disagree with this then that is your choice.

 

All I want is for folks to accept the democratic votes to leave and look for good points, not to get involved with a self fulfilling prophecy of doom and disasters. Yes it may be a bad thing, but at least it is the democratic will of the populace.

 

Junckers...

 

"...the European Council voted 26-2 to propose Juncker for the position. Voting against were British PM David Cameron (Conservative Party / ECR) and Hungarian PM Viktor Orbán (Fidesz / EPP), both of whom had frequently opposed Juncker during the election process."

 

Tusk, president...

 

"Appointments, as well as the removal of incumbents, require a double majority support in the European Council." (The members of the European Council are the heads of state or government of the 28 EU member states, the European Council President and the President of the European Commission.)

 

So actually people did vote them into a position of power. People who'd been elected by their respective population to represent them.

 

Hands up who voted for Theresa May to be PM (unless you're a Tory MP keep your hand down) ?

[Formby]

this wasn't an election though.

 

I don't follow. Surely both are a test of public opinion and, in both, verdicts have been reached by less than 25% of the population? Are you saying one is democratic and the other not?

[rubecula]

 

 

 

Hands up who voted for Theresa May to be PM (unless you're a Tory MP keep your hand down) ?

Nobody votes for PM in UK elections Mike. We vote for a governing party.

 

And now it is happening I see no point in adding to this thread so I am out.

 

Thanks to all you folks for an entertaining thread.

[MikeO]

Nobody votes for PM in UK elections Mike. We vote for a governing party.

 

And now it is happening I see no point in adding to this thread so I am out.

 

Thanks to all you folks for an entertaining thread.

 

Swerved the rest of the post beautifully Rubes, I salute you. Are you related to my wife ("You've proved me wrong and I have no answer so the conversation is over") ?

[Guest rusty747]

It seems to me that the root cause analysis of the diametrically opposed opinions is quite simply whether we in the UK choose to think of ourselves as being British or European citizens.

 

The referendum in 1975 went the way it did, I think, because Europe was being assessed by the electorate largely as a stand alone entity and it was not perceived as being a threat to 'Britishness.'

 

As the process of federal integration subsequently progressed and accelerated (with no UK referendum on this important issue) the perception of the electorate changed from assessing Europe as a stand alone entity to having to make a simple choice between being either British or European as the perception was that the two would soon become mutually exclusive because of the way the EU was, and is, headed.

 

That, imho, demonstrates a leadership of the EU out of tune with a substantial portion of its citizens and, notwithstanding the misinformation pedalled by both Leave and Remain camps, is the main reason why Leave prevailed.

 

Now that the starting gun has been fired on brexit I think it beholds all of us to look for the positives. There are many, many trading opportunities for us outside EU and the EU would be cutting off its nose to spite its face if it refused to negotiate a fair settlement as we could just then walk away with no deal.

 

Its time for some cool heads and mature thinking from all sides now - sadly, something the EU has not got a good track record on, as evidenced only yesterday by the EU trying to drag Gibraltar's sovereignty into brexit.

 

There are some interesting times ahead, it won't all be plain sailing, but I was, and remain, convinced that this is the best outcome for UK. I think another major player exiting the EU could bring about its collapse.

 

This guy explains it as well as anyone, I think.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BdG57lgHFaA&feature=youtu.be

Edited April 1, 2017 by rusty747

[johnh]

 

Swerved the rest of the post beautifully Rubes, I salute you. Are you related to my wife ("You've proved me wrong and I have no answer so the conversation is over") ?

 

Mike, at the next general election the British electorate can vote May out. Explain, in simple terms, how Juncker and Tusk can be voted out by the EU electorate.

[MikeO]

 

Mike, at the next general election the British electorate can vote May out. Explain, in simple terms, how Juncker and Tusk can be voted out by the EU electorate.

They can be voted out by the EU electorates democratically elected representatives, exactly as Theresa May could by Tory MPs. We vote for politicians to make these decisions for us.

[johnh]

Mike, like your 'accusation' to Rubes, you have avoided the question. I asked you to explain how the EU electorate could vote out Juncker and Tusk. I appreciate that the space and time required to do this are daunting and that there are multiple steps involved, each one giving an opportunity for 'manipulation'. Gorbochev was right, it is a dictatorship.

[MikeO]

Mike, like your 'accusation' to Rubes, you have avoided the question. I asked you to explain how the EU electorate could vote out Juncker and Tusk. I appreciate that the space and time required to do this are daunting and that there are multiple steps involved, each one giving an opportunity for 'manipulation'. Gorbochev was right, it is a dictatorship.

 

No I haven't. We vote for the politicians, the politicians (or party in Labour's case) vote for their leaders, and the elected leaders votes on EU leaders. Like I said before, we vote in a general election for our representatives to make decisions for us because (in theory) they are better informed and qualified to make those decisions.

We don't expect as an electorate to have a say on every decision and appointment the government (at any level) make, if we did we'd have to have a referendum/election twice a week.

[holystove]

Its time for some cool heads and mature thinking from all sides now - sadly, something the EU has not got a good track record on, as evidenced only yesterday by the EU trying to drag Gibraltar's sovereignty into brexit.

 

There are some interesting times ahead, it won't all be plain sailing, but I was, and remain, convinced that this is the best outcome for UK. I think another major player exiting the EU could bring about its collapse

 

 

I thought your post was a good analysis of the current situation from the Leave-perspective. You are imo very correct in stating that a big problem is the British never felt like EU citizens.

 

I highlighted the cool heads part because it's funny how different this is perceived by the remaining member states. Threatening to withhold security information, making lists of foreign workers, etc.. newspapers are reporting the UK is turning back to 40's nationalism. The fact that May had to sent a clarification of her original article 50 letter on the security issue, was widely covered as indicative of how disjointed the UK is in its approach.

 

The Gibraltar thing is really weird for an outsider like me but it does show a little of what union membership means. Noone in Finland, Belgium, Denmark, etc cares one bit who rules Gibraltar. It used to be an issue between two member states, UK and Spain. Now the remaining member states see it as an issue of concern for one of its members, and therefor of concern to all of them.

Also, if your argument to leave is that you don't want part of any political union, it's hard to be surprised to see the EU approach Gibraltar from a political point of view.

 

I also agree that if another major player leaves the EU, it's game over. Just like if a major player in the UK leaves the UK, the UK is over . I see neither of those things happening. For all the negative spin that has been put on brexit, it has unified the remaining 27 to an extend never seen before. Let's hope for the UK sake, the UK can also come together during the upcoming negotiations.

[johnh]

 

No I haven't. We vote for the politicians, the politicians (or party in Labour's case) vote for their leaders, and the elected leaders votes on EU leaders. Like I said before, we vote in a general election for our representatives to make decisions for us because (in theory) they are better informed and qualified to make those decisions.

We don't expect as an electorate to have a say on every decision and appointment the government (at any level) make, if we did we'd have to have a referendum/election twice a week.

Mike, let me put it as simply as I can. If I want to get rid of May I go to the polling booth at the next General Election and put an x for another party on the ballot paper. If enough people do the same, she is out. Again, please explain how we get rid of Juncker and Tusk. I appreciate you may find it difficult.

[holystove]

You have tried to make this point numerous times now.. it's not that difficult to understand.

 

Getting rid of Juncker:

1/EU parliamentary elections 2019, put an X for another party than the EPP (party of which Juncker is a member), if enough people do the same, he is out.

OR

2/as the UK already voted against Juncker: convince enough other member states to block Juncker

 

Getting rid of Tusk: Elect a different government leader than the one who supports Tusk, if enough other countries do it, he's out.

Edited April 1, 2017 by holystove

[Palfy]

I predict that on this forum and around the country that the leave voters will with draw, more and more from the debate as time goes on, due to the fact they will start to see that they have fucked them selves and their families over, so will shrink into the background and hide.

[Cornish Steve]

The point about Gibraltar is very relevant. If the people of Gibraltar were asked, they'd overwhelmingly want to maintain British rule. If the EU is driven primarily by democracy, why did they ever bring up this issue? It reveals how they think.

[Guest rusty747]

I thought your post was a good analysis of the current situation from the Leave-perspective. You are imo very correct in stating that a big problem is the British never felt like EU citizens.

 

I highlighted the cool heads part because it's funny how different this is perceived by the remaining member states. Threatening to withhold security information, making lists of foreign workers, etc.. newspapers are reporting the UK is turning back to 40's nationalism. The fact that May had to sent a clarification of her original article 50 letter on the security issue, was widely covered as indicative of how disjointed the UK is in its approach.

 

The Gibraltar thing is really weird for an outsider like me but it does show a little of what union membership means. Noone in Finland, Belgium, Denmark, etc cares one bit who rules Gibraltar. It used to be an issue between two member states, UK and Spain. Now the remaining member states see it as an issue of concern for one of its members, and therefor of concern to all of them.

Also, if your argument to leave is that you don't want part of any political union, it's hard to be surprised to see the EU approach Gibraltar from a political point of view.

 

I also agree that if another major player leaves the EU, it's game over. Just like if a major player in the UK leaves the UK, the UK is over . I see neither of those things happening. For all the negative spin that has been put on brexit, it has unified the remaining 27 to an extend never seen before. Let's hope for the UK sake, the UK can also come together during the upcoming negotiations.

Regarding Gibraltar, it is only an issue between Spain and UK. The EU does not or should not have any role to play and to suggest/claim that it does is to perfectly demonstrate why UK is leaving EU. I strongly hope that UK tells EU to mind its own business regarding Gibraltar and that we refuse to even discuss the issue. Alternatively, we just walk away - that is what self determination and sovereignty means. And if the EU is truly democratic, perhaps they can recognise the wishes of the 99% of Gibraltarians who voted to remain British in the last referendum - or is this another case of the EU thinking it knows best again - contrary to the expressed wishes of the very people it purports to represent?

 

It didn't work out too well for Argentina over the Falkland Islands in 1982 and the result (though hopefully not the methodology) will be the same over Gibraltar.

 

It's a cheap shot from the EU (under Spanish encouragement) to try to ratchet up pressure on negotiations and it has failed before it starts.

Edited April 1, 2017 by rusty747

[Guest rusty747]

I predict that on this forum and around the country that the leave voters will with draw, more and more from the debate as time goes on, due to the fact they will start to see that they have fucked them selves and their families over, so will shrink into the background and hide.

Not this Leave supporter.

 

It looks like being a messy divorce because the EU is being petulent and arrogant and, generally behaving in a manner that persuaded us that leaving was in the best interests of our Sovereign United Kingdom and therefore comes as no surprise. There are some cool and mature heads within EU but whether they will be able to persuade the others within EU is very much in the balance.

 

Go ahead and make it difficult. You will find that the British are very polite and patient up to a generous limit, but once we are done with someone, or something, we are done with it for good. If the EU wants to go down that path then we will not back down one iota. It would be a shame if that is the way we go but we will have no choice unless or until the EU stops believing its own propaganda.

Edited April 1, 2017 by rusty747

[holystove]

The point about Gibraltar is very relevant. If the people of Gibraltar were asked, they'd overwhelmingly want to maintain British rule. If the EU is driven primarily by democracy, why did they ever bring up this issue? It reveals how they think.

It obviously is only a Spain issue which they feel so strongly about they demand the EU mention it in brexit negotiations. The EU, being consensus driven, likely couldnt get Spains OK on the response to May unless Gibraltar was included in it. Another example of how the EU is driven my its member countries.

 

Also wasnt Gibraltar 90% remain? One could say this reveals how this Tory government thinks.

[Guest rusty747]

It obviously is only a Spain issue which they feel so strongly about they demand the EU mention it in brexit negotiations. The EU, being consensus driven, likely couldnt get Spains OK on the response to May unless Gibraltar was included in it. Another example of how the EU is driven my its member countries.

Also wasnt Gibraltar 90% remain? One could say this reveals how this Tory government thinks.

Actually, Gibraltar was 99% remain - Remain in the United Kingdom.

 

Talk about using human beings as pawns in politics - Spain should be (but isn't of course) ashamed of itself. But no matter. It will be dealt with one way or another.

Edited April 1, 2017 by rusty747