Brexit...

[pete0]

 

This is where I fundamentally disagree with some, seemingly the majority; the definition of "our own".

 

For me that's the human race rather than those lucky enough to have been born on a small piece of rock that dropped off mainland Europe ten thousand-ish years ago due to an "accident" of nature.

Plus the union kept our Gobshites in check, and gave funding to the places our government had failed to. Might as well have dug Thatcher up voting out the EU.

[Guest rusty747]

This is where I fundamentally disagree with some, seemingly the majority; the definition of "our own".

 

For me that's the human race rather than those lucky enough to have been born on a small piece of rock that dropped off mainland Europe ten thousand-ish years ago due to an "accident" of nature.

I think you raise an interesting and valid point. And I think people, generally speaking, fall into one of two camps. The theoretical idealistic scenario that you expound on the one extreme and the practical outlook of 'nice idea but it will never work because of our own human failings' on the other extreme.

 

As a theory, I am with you 100% but I am also firmly of the opinion that it will never ever work. The EU in many ways is proof positive that it wont work. The amount of money that is lost to incompetence and corruption is just mind blowing. They have had half a century to sort it out and it just gets worse.

Edited April 15, 2017 by rusty747

[Matt]

I think you raise an interesting and valid point. And I think people, generally speaking, fall into one of two camps. The theoretical idealistic scenario that you expound on the one extreme and the practical outlook of 'nice idea but it will never work because of our own human failings' on the other extreme.

 

As a theory, I am with you 100% but I am also firmly of the opinion that it will never ever work. The EU in many ways is proof positive that it wont work. The amount of money that is lost to incompetence and corruption is just mind blowing. They have had half a century to sort it out and it just gets worse.

and the British had centuries and couldn't sort it out. It's not a quick fix

[johnh]

Plus the union kept our Gobshites in check, and gave funding to the places our government had failed to. Might as well have dug Thatcher up voting out the EU.

The EU don't 'give' funding, they are just returning SOME of our own money.

[Matt]

The EU don't 'give' funding, they are just returning SOME of our own money.

and some money from the other members, ensuring it's better distributed. Liverpool is the perfect example of this

[pete0]

The EU don't 'give' funding, they are just returning SOME of our own money.

I was born in the 80s and in my lifetime the EU has done more for Liverpool than the government, who if anything have done their best to make us worse off. Look what they've done to the NHS, and then tell me how any one can trust then wholly. Edited April 15, 2017 by pete0

[johnh]

I was born in the 80s and in my lifetime the EU has done more for Liverpool than the government, who if anything have done their best to make us worse off. Look what they've done to the NHS, and then tell me how any one can trust then wholly.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'the government'. There have been governments of three different political flavours since the 1980's. Tory, Labour, Coalition, Tory again.

I restate my case. The EU don't have any funds of their own, they receive tax from member countries. Investments are made in member countries. Some countries receive back more than they pay. Others, like the UK, receive back less than they pay. Investments made by the EU are in accordance with agreements made with member countries, so investments in Liverpool are in accordance with agreements made with the UK government (at the time).

[pete0]

 

Not sure what you mean by 'the government'. There have been governments of three different political flavours since the 1980's. Tory, Labour, Coalition, Tory again.

I restate my case. The EU don't have any funds of their own, they receive tax from member countries. Investments are made in member countries. Some countries receive back more than they pay. Others, like the UK, receive back less than they pay. Investments made by the EU are in accordance with agreements made with member countries, so investments in Liverpool are in accordance with agreements made with the UK government (at the time).

Only 2 really, lib dem had little influence. Politicians here are corrupt as fuck and don't care for the common man. Liverpool is fucked by then constantly.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-miss-out-100m-eu-8718067.amp

[Matt]

Only 2 really, lib dem had little influence. Politicians here are corrupt as fuck and don't care for the common man. Liverpool is fucked by then constantly.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-miss-out-100m-eu-8718067.amp

but we're at least fucked by our own politicians....

 

[johnh]

Only 2 really, lib dem had little influence. Politicians here are corrupt as fuck and don't care for the common man. Liverpool is fucked by then constantly.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-miss-out-100m-eu-8718067.amp

 

Cameron was just as much a Liberal as Nick Clegg. It wasn't far off being a Liberal government. As for politicians not caring for the common man, this sums up the EU elite. The EU elite are like religeous zealots when it comes to the EU 'project'. The project takes precedence over everything and the people are the last consideration.

[pete0]

 

Cameron was just as much a Liberal as Nick Clegg. It wasn't far off being a Liberal government. As for politicians not caring for the common man, this sums up the EU elite. The EU elite are like religeous zealots when it comes to the EU 'project'. The project takes precedence over everything and the people are the last consideration.

Liberal? They tripled uni fees!

 

Joe Bloggs on the street here is poorer than our Dutch friends, even though the UK is the 5th wealthiest country in the world and the Netherlands doesn't even make the top 10. We have an hour glass government only looking out for the top.

[EFC-Paul]

We have an hour glass government only looking out for the top.

I think that's something we can all agree on!

[Bailey]

 

This is where I fundamentally disagree with some, seemingly the majority; the definition of "our own".

 

For me that's the human race rather than those lucky enough to have been born on a small piece of rock that dropped off mainland Europe ten thousand-ish years ago due to an "accident" of nature.

I get your point and fundamentally don't disagree we can't chose what is right for the whole world. We can do what we like for humanity but if x amount of member states don't agree it doesn't matter, we are all left in a worse position.

 

Furthermore what is right for one country isn't right for another and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

The width of pavements, on what items we pay VAT, the limit on working hours are all cultural or relative to the country writing the law. They don't effect every country and are only relative to the country the rule is required.

[MikeO]

I get your point and fundamentally don't disagree we can't chose what is right for the whole world. We can do what we like for humanity but if x amount of member states don't agree it doesn't matter, we are all left in a worse position.

 

Furthermore what is right for one country isn't right for another and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

The width of pavements, on what items we pay VAT, the limit on working hours are all cultural or relative to the country writing the law. They don't effect every country and are only relative to the country the rule is required.

 

Go back a very short time (in history of the planet terms) and the UK was made up of loads of disparate "kingdoms" all claiming their own sovereignty and none of them wanted unity. Further back settlements were self governing. Further back than that someone was in charge of their cave.

 

We evolved from that because it was the sensible thing to do; both economically, politically and to stop people killing each other.

 

Now we've taken a backwards step imo so where does it end? Do we carry on reversing the process of thousands of years and split into ever smaller groups? Can I have a referendum in my road to declare independence for our postcode?

 

Yourself and rusty both agree with me that in a Utopian world what I want is a good thing but say it can't be done and I agree that as things are it's not going to happen, but that's no reason not to try. Couple of hundred years ago the thought of humans flying was fantasy but it didn't stop people trying and eventually succeeding (luckily for rusty or he'd be on the dole ).

[Chach]

 

Go back a very short time (in history of the planet terms) and the UK was made up of loads of disparate "kingdoms" all claiming their own sovereignty and none of them wanted unity. Further back settlements were self governing. Further back than that someone was in charge of their cave.

 

Your problem is you're too young mate, you don't remember the old nothing days, they were were best.

 

[Guest rusty747]

Go back a very short time (in history of the planet terms) and the UK was made up of loads of disparate "kingdoms" all claiming their own sovereignty and none of them wanted unity. Further back settlements were self governing. Further back than that someone was in charge of their cave.

 

We evolved from that because it was the sensible thing to do; both economically, politically and to stop people killing each other.

 

Now we've taken a backwards step imo so where does it end? Do we carry on reversing the process of thousands of years and split into ever smaller groups? Can I have a referendum in my road to declare independence for our postcode?

 

Yourself and rusty both agree with me that in a Utopian world what I want is a good thing but say it can't be done and I agree that as things are it's not going to happen, but that's no reason not to try. Couple of hundred years ago the thought of humans flying was fantasy but it didn't stop people trying and eventually succeeding (luckily for rusty or he'd be on the dole ).

One very significant element in your post that I have to take serious issue with Mike.

 

You say that there is no reason not to try to achieve your utopian dream. There is every reason. Hunan nature being what it is, people/countries may superficially agree to such a theory but, in practice, are only looking at what they can take out of the new set up (for their own nation state or individual benefit) and not what they can contribute for the benefit of others.

 

That leads to the 'what one petson/state receives without working for, another nation/person has to work for without receiving. That breeds resentment and before you know it you are having a referendum to leave this utopian dream because it doesn't work for the majority and is open to abuse by the people that run it.

 

In other words, we just reinvent the wheel at enormous cost and disruption. Far better to reduce the number of those with a say in the decision making (by returning to national sovereignty) and only having to make decisions to respect our national culture(s) rather than 27+ others. The point you make about head of cave, street, settlement, district, kingdom etc is fine but there comes a point when further expansion becomes too big to manage efficiently and too open to abuse. I think we are just fine as a United Kingdom and being a good neighbour to other like minded countries.

[Palfy]

Give me a chance Palfy. Only just seen your comment.

To me, Sovereignty means UK being 100% in charge of making its own laws, changing its own laws where we see fit, control of immigration, able to conclude bilateral trade deals without having to wait for concensus from 27 other countries and not being held back and/or frustrated by other countries (incidentally, putting their own national interests ahead of the EU group in the process) tactical use of veto etc. In short, as Bailey said, being in charge of our own destiny and not being dictated to by Brussels/Strasbourg.

It also means establishing (re establishing?) our own national culture and cultures, being proud of what we stand for and setting a good example of leadership on the world stage. Leadership is not a popularity contest though and sometimes we have to be strong enough to say no.

It also means being a good neighbour to our European and global allies (whether they are in the EU or not) whilst always safeguarding our own national identity.

It means strong defence. Not just for the obvious reasons but also to instill a sense of discipline and responsibility in the younger generations and to show them that opportunity does exist to do good and that there are honest rewards for honest endeavour.

Sadly, much of the above has been sacrificed on the altar of political correctness, driven by active minority groups. I am in favour of minority groups having their say but not to the extent that the voices of the majority cease to be heard or listened to.

We do make and change our own laws, the E.U don't set out how we should sentence paedophiles, rapist, murders, or any other criminals you might care to mention. They have influenced human rights more, and for the better imo particularly in the work place, could you expand on what laws they have forced us to adopt which have had a negative impact on, I think the ones I have mentioned are what concerns the majority of people, in their everyday lives and our own British judicial system is failing us on the punitive sentences being handed out, nothing to do with E.U.

On the issue of immigration we let just as many people into the country from outside of E.U as we do from inside, we have complete control on that, yet thousands keep coming in, so where we do have the ability to say no we are full our infrastructure can't cope we still say yes, and that will continue with Europeans once we have left the E.U, to put it bluntly there will be know noticeable change in the change of foreign nationals entering the UK.

We already export and import with 100's of countries outside the E.U, we may not have any trade deals imposition with these countries, but who's to say that any deals we try to broker around the world, are going to be better than the deals we already have with in and out of E.U, we look quite vulnerable and desperate at the moment as government have proved in the way we have been dealing with the USA, nearly begging for a better word.

What have we lost culturally please expand, I'm still British my village still has a troop of Morris dancers, we still have our country shows all around were I live, cultural arts and crafts are still going strong in this country, and we are lucky that we are experiencing other cultures which is conducive of a society that can live together.

We have always been a leader on the world stage and being in the E.U has not diminished our presence on the world stage one bit, could you expand on how we have become less of a world player for being in the E.U.

Good parenting gives children values, not governments it's your responsibility to raise your child with a belief in them selves, no matter what political tools are in place.

[Chach]

Been posted before but as sovereignty keeps rearing it's head worth a repost:

 

"So let us start with a couple of myths. The first is the myth of sovereignty, there is no doubt whatsoever that the United Kingdom is a sovereign state under international law. There is no doubt whatsoever that the parliament in Westminster is the supreme law making authority in this country.

Conversely there is no doubt whatsoever that the EU is not a sovereign entity, far from being a sovereign state, it is not even a sovereign entity, it has only those powers which has been given under the EU treaties. If the UK courts sometimes give priority to EU law in the event of a conflict with domestic law, it is purely because our parliament has expressly instructed them to do so in our own legislation.

So it the UK a sovereign state? Yes.

Is parliament our supreme legislative authority? Yes.

So why do we keep hearing about sovereignty in this debate. The fact is that sovereignty is not really an issue in the debate, it is about power and influence and sovereignty is being used as a shorthand to talk about power and influence.

The fact is that membership of any international organization, whether it is the UN, NATO, the EU, any international organization involves a tradeoff. You agree to certain obligations in return for the opportunity to exercise greater influence in practice.

And conversely if you decide to leave or stand away from an international organization, you are basically saying, “I am prepared to accept that I am not going to influence certain things to keep my theoretical power more intact”.

The same is true for the EU. Membership of the EU obviously entails certain obligations on the part of the member states. But it offers the member states the opportunity to exercise much greater collective problem solving powers as well as to magnify their own individual influence both within Europe and in the world stage."

[MikeO]

One very significant element in your post that I have to take serious issue with Mike.

 

You say that there is no reason not to try to achieve your utopian dream. There is every reason. Hunan nature being what it is, people/countries may superficially agree to such a theory but, in practice, are only looking at what they can take out of the new set up (for their own nation state or individual benefit) and not what they can contribute for the benefit of others.

 

That's defeatist for me, "human nature being what it is" suggests that human nature can't evolve, but it has done continually throughout history so why have we reached a point where it has to stop?

 

Used to be "human nature" to enslave, empire build, crusade, torture, deport undesirables, execute, send children down the mine to work eighteen hour days, beat your wife, discriminate etc etc ad infinitum but most of us have moved on from most of those things. Are you suggesting the the human race is now a fully evolved and complete project and not capable of further improvement? ie we're selfish and greedy by nature so that's how it is just accept that's how it's always going to be. All very well if you're one of the "haves" (like we all are) but not so great if you're a "have not".

[Guest rusty747]

That's defeatist for me, "human nature being what it is" suggests that human nature can't evolve, but it has done continually throughout history so why have we reached a point where it has to stop?

 

Used to be "human nature" to enslave, empire build, crusade, torture, deport undesirables, execute, send children down the mine to work eighteen hour days, beat your wife, discriminate etc etc ad infinitum but most of us have moved on from most of those things. Are you suggesting the the human race is now a fully evolved and complete project and not capable of further improvement? ie we're selfish and greedy by nature so that's how it is just accept that's how it's always going to be. All very well if you're one of the "haves" (like we all are) but not so great if you're a "have not".

Its not defeatist Mike. Its realistic. I have no idea what the global political will for the utopian dream you propose might be in 100, 200 or 300 years (a mere second or two relative to life on earth as you have previously implied) but, right now, not only would it not work but mho it would be futile, naive and foolish to even try.

 

The concept of the have/have nots doesn't really work either. People need an incentive to work hard. Very few people (human nature again) would accept working hard using their above average ability in their chosen field to benefit people who can't / won't work as a fair incentive. Most peoples loyalty and priority is to their family. Life is competitive, no matter what certain schools would have you believe where prizes are awarded for coming last. The way to improve our collective lot is to give all children equal opportunity but accept that some will be successful and some wont. It is only fair that those who work harder and achieve more are rewarded commensurately. Isn't it? It also acts as an example and incentive for subsequent generations that hard work pays off.

Edited April 16, 2017 by rusty747

[johnh]

We do make and change our own laws, the E.U don't set out how we should sentence paedophiles, rapist, murders, or any other criminals you might care to mention. They have influenced human rights more, and for the better imo particularly in the work place, could you expand on what laws they have forced us to adopt which have had a negative impact on, I think the ones I have mentioned are what concerns the majority of people, in their everyday lives and our own British judicial system is failing us on the punitive sentences being handed out, nothing to do with E.U.

On the issue of immigration we let just as many people into the country from outside of E.U as we do from inside, we have complete control on that, yet thousands keep coming in, so where we do have the ability to say no we are full our infrastructure can't cope we still say yes, and that will continue with Europeans once we have left the E.U, to put it bluntly there will be know noticeable change in the change of foreign nationals entering the UK.

We already export and import with 100's of countries outside the E.U, we may not have any trade deals imposition with these countries, but who's to say that any deals we try to broker around the world, are going to be better than the deals we already have with in and out of E.U, we look quite vulnerable and desperate at the moment as government have proved in the way we have been dealing with the USA, nearly begging for a better word.

What have we lost culturally please expand, I'm still British my village still has a troop of Morris dancers, we still have our country shows all around were I live, cultural arts and crafts are still going strong in this country, and we are lucky that we are experiencing other cultures which is conducive of a society that can live together.

We have always been a leader on the world stage and being in the E.U has not diminished our presence on the world stage one bit, could you expand on how we have become less of a world player for being in the E.U.

Good parenting gives children values, not governments it's your responsibility to raise your child with a belief in them selves, no matter what political tools are in place.

 

Palfy, sorry to hear about your Morris dancers, mate.

[Palfy]

Palfy, sorry to hear about your Morris dancers, mate.

Thanks John Lol

[Chach]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

[Guest rusty747]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

Not at all sure how this will play out. EU are trying to play hardball (expected) and May needs to stick to her guns.

Edited April 16, 2017 by rusty747

[johnh]

Guardian, yawn.

[Palfy]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/15/britain-set-to-lose-eu-crown-jewels

Very interesting article, some very hard times a head by the sounds of it.

And you can almost hear May when she's on the scrap heap in 4-5 years time, defending her stance on Brexit with " don't blame me I was only doing what the people wanted" as her get out of jail card for the carnage that will happen.

[Matt]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39613888

[holystove]

Not at all sure how this will play out. EU are trying to play hardball (expected) and May needs to stick to her guns.

hardly a surprise that all EU agencies will leave the UK, no?

 

I don't expect any of the numerous agencies the UK will have to set up post-brexit for all those repatriated competences to be based on the continent.

[holystove]

Guardian, yawn.

Guardian has been poor lately on the brexit stuff, I agree. Blaming May for having said God would have voted Leave, while she clearly didn't say that, was a new low this weekend.

 

However, IMO, The Telegraph has been just as bad, if not worse. (bristol size city of unemployed migrants nonsense, UK navy can take Spain, etc)

 

I try to read both to get both sides of the argument but the end result is just that I get annoyed twice.

[johnh]

I try not to quote the Telegraph as it can be a tad biased. I stick to the Daily Mail! (only joking!).