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Brexit...


Hafnia

Referendum  

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  1. 1. In or out?

    • Stay in
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    • Leave
      24

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that's why I stressed it was wrongly named. it is just a settling of accounts. UK has both assets and liabilities in EU. the EU position at this time is that UK owes money, but maybe the UK can make the case it is the other way around. it is not a fee related to exiting a supranational organisation, it is only one of the aspects of ending a communal project.

 

why I am frightened by todays news and what is the cause of concern is not that May/UK and Juncker/EU disagree but, frankly, how pathetic and ill-briefed the UK points are. I personally live in a country that has a great stake in May being competent, and it appears it's so bad I now have my hopes set on David Davis.

 

Your view of the UK points is that presented by Juncker. Reports here, suggest that the meeting ended with jokes and laughs all round. It would appear that old piss head Juncker seemed to have a dram too many on the flight back and came up with a completely different view of the meeting. As a psychologist, who specialises in negotiation techniques said, 'A side that resorts to threats and slander is clearly rattled'.

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Matt, as I have stated previously, I sympathise with your situation but it is now clear that the problem is caused by the EU blocking May's proposal for it to be given priority. The EU elite are only concerned about 'the Project', couldn't care less about the people. May made the same proposal (as the one at the meeting) back on April 6 to Tusk.

Report states ' The EU had privately decided to block any deal, leaked documents show, but did not want to reveal such a move publicly'

 

Telegraph report which claims to have seen leaked documents.

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Matt, as I have stated previously, I sympathise with your situation but it is now clear that the problem is caused by the EU blocking May's proposal for it to be given priority. The EU elite are only concerned about 'the Project', couldn't care less about the people. May made the same proposal (as the one at the meeting) back on April 6 to Tusk.

Report states ' The EU had privately decided to block any deal, leaked documents show, but did not want to reveal such a move publicly'

 

Telegraph report which claims to have seen leaked documents.

For me it's clear that the EU are trying to protect the people from the complete lack of preparation on the U.K's / May's side. Just depends on how you want to look at it I think mate. For every BBC/Guardian link that gets dismissed, the Torygraph/Mail is equally biased.

 

I'm not continuing to argue for the sake of my situation (still in limbo, but appreciate the continued support), I'm arguing for common sense and the greater good, i.e. not just the U.K., but for all EU citizens that are going to be protected. IF there is a decent proposal and plan for making Brexit work, I'll be able to get behind it. But I've seen nothing from either side (again) and for the moment, from May's side, it looks more like a career move than anything else.

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In november 2016 rights of British immigrants on the continent were guaranteed by FOM rules, with no date in sight of when, or even if, article 50 will be triggered.. Germany has zero competence to make any decisions union wide; after Tusk realised at the time there was no consensus among EU27 this issue was left on the table. The EU now asks in the Council Guidelines for real guarantees for citizens, which tells you all you need to know about the May proposal of November 2016.

 

Seeing how there are many more EU citizens in UK than UK immigrants in the EU, the UK has the upper hand on this issue.. as evidenced by the ridiculously tough standards the home office has set to grant permanent residency. I guess after threatening to withhold security information, not respecting the rights of EU nationals in the UK is just par for the course. ☺

 

If Germany has zero competence to make decisions union wide, why is it that after virtually every meeting we read about Juncker reporting back to Merkel? Greece has been hit with penalties virtually every time they have failed to meet an EU target. Germany has failed to meet the EU target for Current Account surplus (as % of GDP) for a number of years. Last year they exceeded the target by over 40% (they had the highest surplus in all world economies). No action has ever been taken against Germany for exceeding the target. I wonder why?

 

Greece faces austerity for the rest of its natural if they stay in the euro. The only solution is debt relief, which Germany are against. When you compare Greece, with its 60% youth unemployment and austerity, to Germany, who have the most successful economy on the planet, what does it say about the European Union?

Some 'Union'.

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I hope you are right about the Juncker-May dinner, John. I doubt it though. However there's still a chance of success if "drunk" Juncker and dim-witted May surround themselves with the right people.

 

Matt, as I have stated previously, I sympathise with your situation but it is now clear that the problem is caused by the EU blocking May's proposal for it to be given priority. The EU elite are only concerned about 'the Project', couldn't care less about the people. May made the same proposal (as the one at the meeting) back on April 6 to Tusk.

 

I'm sure May was sincere when she proposed a quick solution but is not aware of the legal etc. difficulties. It's like May going to NASA and saying that if humans want to get to Mars we need to build a big rocket. If NASA then says it's not that easy and you need to consider a lot of other stuff, I'm sure the Telegraph will defend her by saying she was very clear about the need of a Mars mission but those NASA elite refuse to cooperate. Edited by holystove
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Your view of the UK points is that presented by Juncker. Reports here, suggest that the meeting ended with jokes and laughs all round. It would appear that old piss head Juncker seemed to have a dram too many on the flight back and came up with a completely different view of the meeting. As a psychologist, who specialises in negotiation techniques said, 'A side that resorts to threats and slander is clearly rattled'.

 

Sounds like there was plenty of banter.

 

https://twitter.com/i/moments/858943560594235393

Edited by Chach
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I see the Belgian finance minister, Johan Van Overtveldt, is quoted as saying 'Brexit has 'shattered' the principle of ever closer union in the EU, who also warned that the bloc must now transform itself if it is to survive. He said 'there is clearly a problem with the European Union' and he called for a quick, comprehensive trade deal with the UK while warning that trying to punish Britain for leaving would be futile.

 

There is the reality and the (EU) problem. The European elite, who are negotiating, have a totally different agenda to national governments, (except perhaps Germany). The problems Britain may have from Brexit negotiations will pale into insignificance compared to the problems Brussels will have from EU national governments when they are faced with the realities of a hard Brexit. Of course, the elite in Brussels think they are immune from this but they will find that they are not.

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I see the Belgian finance minister, Johan Van Overtveldt, is quoted as saying 'Brexit has 'shattered' the principle of ever closer union in the EU, who also warned that the bloc must now transform itself if it is to survive. He said 'there is clearly a problem with the European Union' and he called for a quick, comprehensive trade deal with the UK while warning that trying to punish Britain for leaving would be futile.

 

There is the reality and the (EU) problem. The European elite, who are negotiating, have a totally different agenda to national governments, (except perhaps Germany). The problems Britain may have from Brexit negotiations will pale into insignificance compared to the problems Brussels will have from EU national governments when they are faced with the realities of a hard Brexit. Of course, the elite in Brussels think they are immune from this but they will find that they are not.

 

I'm glad Belgium is one of the main pushers for a quick trade deal. As May correctly pointed out before the referendum, the UK exports twice as much to Belgium as to India.

 

The biggest Belgian party is actually in the same eurosceptic group as the Tories in the European Parliament. The Belgian minister you quote is of this party and consequently quite eurosceptic. (mind that eurosceptic doesn't mean anti-EU, to them it means reformed-EU)

 

I think you will find the member states have a very firm hand over the Commission in these negotiations. The Council Guidelines, which bind the hands of the Commission, were written by and approved by the national governments. Spain pushed for inclusion of Gibraltar, Poland pushes to up the "brexit bill", Ireland wants the land border with the UK to be top of the list, .. these are all demands of national governments who use the EU to further their national intrest. This is the very point of being in the EU. There is no European Elite agenda, as you call it, there are 27 different agenda's which resulted in a very strict mandate for the Commission to start negotiations.

 

Michel Barnier, and Juncker, do not set the agenda, in the same way that Tim Barrow doesn't decide the UK's position.

Edited by holystove
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For me it's clear that the EU are trying to protect the people from the complete lack of preparation on the U.K's / May's side. Just depends on how you want to look at it I think mate. For every BBC/Guardian link that gets dismissed, the Torygraph/Mail is equally biased.

 

I'm not continuing to argue for the sake of my situation (still in limbo, but appreciate the continued support), I'm arguing for common sense and the greater good, i.e. not just the U.K., but for all EU citizens that are going to be protected. IF there is a decent proposal and plan for making Brexit work, I'll be able to get behind it. But I've seen nothing from either side (again) and for the moment, from May's side, it looks more like a career move than anything else.

 

Matt, it appears that May may unilaterally extend rights to EU people in the UK. I hope she does, as it will force the EU's hand both in whether they grant the same rights to UK people in the EU, or if they don't, will have to justify 'why'. It will also (hopefully) stop the EU playing silly beggars with peoples lives.

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Matt, it appears that May may unilaterally extend rights to EU people in the UK. I hope she does, as it will force the EU's hand both in whether they grant the same rights to UK people in the EU, or if they don't, will have to justify 'why'. It will also (hopefully) stop the EU playing silly beggars with peoples lives.

their aim is to protect the EU, some 450 million or so people after GB leaves. It's the Tories playing silly buggers by just trying to steamroller through massively complex topics.
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Two different sources today say the EU has made its proposal.

 

We are told there is a document on the table relating to UK citizens living in Europe and those of citizens from other EU countries who live in Britain, but the UK is not prepared to sign. No reason has been given as to why. (Helena Kennedy)

 

 

EU has a paper on citizens' rights ready to sign on June 9. May says issue has "complexities and lots of details". Sounds v hesitant. (Matthew Holehouse)

 

 

 

John, why is she not signing? I assume it's because there are clauses in it she doesn't agree with. Doesn't imply she's "playing silly beggars with peoples lives".

 

I understand the EU27 don't agree with May saying it's enough she tranfers EU citizen rights into a UK law, because there's nothing stopping her from repealing that law in 5 years time.

May on the other hand, is opposed to any mechanism of oversight that could protect the rights of both immigrants in the UK and on the continent, as she doens't want anything that is out of British control.

 

So who has the moral high ground?

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sorry to piss on your chips Matt, but what industry has not abandoned the UK over the past 25 years? but we still have some industries, we always will have, they may change but there will always be people who want to invest here.

of course there have, but many now are quoting Brexit as a reason.
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of course there have, but many now are quoting Brexit as a reason.

or excuse perhaps?

 

no matter they would have considered leaving anyway as no big multinational could bring a planned change of that magnitude to fruition in such a short time, it would have been in the pipeline for years.

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or excuse perhaps?

 

no matter they would have considered leaving anyway as no big multinational could bring a planned change of that magnitude to fruition in such a short time, it would have been in the pipeline for years.

Does it matter? Reason or excuse, it's been presented to them.

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Guest rusty747

I think recent events are analagous to the 'phoney war' prior to WW1 and WW2. Each side is doing little more than posturing for domestic consumption.

 

The real business will start soon enough and then we will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff much more easily.

Edited by rusty747
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excerpt from politico. not good, but expected.

 

"EU leaders expressed mounting alarm Friday that U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May and her team are in a dangerous state of denial about the consequences of leaving the bloc.

 

The worry over Britains unrealistic expectations was a main topic of discussion at background briefings all across Brussels European Quarter on the eve of an extraordinary European Council summit on Brexit.

 

Saturdays summit is the first official gathering of the 27 EU leaders without Britain since May sent a letter formally triggering the Article 50 withdrawal process in late March.

 

Diplomats said the concerns were tied directly to a dinner that May hosted in London Wednesday night with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, the EUs chief negotiator Michel Barnier, and other senior officials.

 

Participants in the dinner were extraordinarily tight-lipped about it afterward, but an EU diplomat said Juncker called Chancellor Angela Merkel at 7:30 a.m. the day after the dinner. And in a speech to the German parliament on Thursday, Merkel sent a pointed wake-up call, saying the U.K. cannot and will not have the same rights as EU members and that Britain should have no illusions.

 

May, responding to Merkels comments, said that the 27 were lining up to oppose the U.K., and she noted, Weve seen that actually there will be times when these negotiations are going to get tough.

 

One senior EU official said there was some relief that even hard-line Brexiteers were no longer suggesting that leaving the EU without a formal withdrawal agreement might be a good idea. Officials on both sides generally agree that would lead to chaos.

 

But EU officials, who in recent months have worked hard to build uncharacteristic unity among the 27 on Brexit, suggested it was not clear the U.K. had come to grips with the fact that EU businesses, particularly in the financial sector, were likely to suffer as a result of Brexit or that Britain has substantial financial obligations to the EU budget that must be fulfilled.

 

Those obligations are not a Brexit bill or an exit fee, one senior EU official said, but simply reflect joint budget commitments that the U.K. agreed as a full-fledged EU member.

 

That issue will not go away, the official said. Were telling them it will be a problem.

 

One EU diplomat, asked how things went at the dinner in London, said: Badly. Really badly. The diplomat added: Thats what I think we have a possible scenario of great difficulty.

 

Pressed on different views of the U.K.s financial obligations, the diplomat said: Im not going to tell you their number, because you are going to laugh.

 

The diplomats overall verdict on the Brits? They are in a different galaxy.

 

A question for Holystove. In a previous post, you said that Germany had no special powers in the EU and were just one of 27 nations. You state above, that after the London meeting, Juncker phoned Merkel at 7.30 am the day after the dinner. Presumably, he spent the whole morning on the phone speaking to the heads of government of the other 26 members. My guess is that he did not, he only contacted his boss (oops, sorry) Merkel. My question is this: If Germany have no special powers, why did he decide to phone only Merkel?

 

It is becoming obvious that the London meeting was carefully choreographed by the EU, including the leaks to a German newspaper. What this will have done however, is to piss off most of the other German newspapers who were left out of the loop and who will now be out to get Juncker et al. This will run and run.

Edited by johnh
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In other fake news 2+2= 456

 

Take it to the conspiracy thread :P

Why would someone (as Juncker did) take two enormous tomes (The Canada trade deal, the other whose title escapes me) to a preliminary meeting where no detail was to be discussed, and then produce them with a flourish to make a point? He probably spent the previous week practising in front of the mirror for dramatic effect. Apparently, the EU contingent agreed with the post meeting announcement that it had been 'constructive' and then went off and spouted poison like a group of schoolkids. What a shower and there are people on here who seriously want to stay with them, unbelievable.

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Why would someone (as Juncker did) take two enormous tomes (The Canada trade deal, the other whose title escapes me) to a preliminary meeting where no detail was to be discussed, and then produce them with a flourish to make a point? He probably spent the previous week practising in front of the mirror for dramatic effect. Apparently, the EU contingent agreed with the post meeting announcement that it had been 'constructive' and then went off and spouted poison like a group of schoolkids. What a shower and there are people on here who seriously want to stay with them, unbelievable.

 

Why would the President of the European Commission be carrying around a European Trade deal and Croatia's entry deal?

 

If it even happened its not odd he would have documents like that with him at any one time.

 

"then produce them with a flourish"

 

Pure conjecture.

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Why would someone (as Juncker did) take two enormous tomes (The Canada trade deal, the other whose title escapes me) to a preliminary meeting where no detail was to be discussed, and then produce them with a flourish to make a point? He probably spent the previous week practising in front of the mirror for dramatic effect. Apparently, the EU contingent agreed with the post meeting announcement that it had been 'constructive' and then went off and spouted poison like a group of schoolkids. What a shower and there are people on here who seriously want to stay with them, unbelievable.

You'd rather the tory cunts have full power? The lot who have slowly killed the working and middle class whilst making the rich richer, and only not done it faster because the EU helps the places like Liverpool.
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Why would someone (as Juncker did) take two enormous tomes (The Canada trade deal, the other whose title escapes me) to a preliminary meeting where no detail was to be discussed, and then produce them with a flourish to make a point? He probably spent the previous week practising in front of the mirror for dramatic effect. Apparently, the EU contingent agreed with the post meeting announcement that it had been 'constructive' and then went off and spouted poison like a group of schoolkids. What a shower and there are people on here who seriously want to stay with them, unbelievable.

Yes there are people here who know we would be better off in than out, and I'm one, the tide is turning and in the next twelve months we all suffer due to the lies and distortions of the Brexiteers.
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You'd rather the tory cunts have full power? The lot who have slowly killed the working and middle class whilst making the rich richer, and only not done it faster because the EU helps the places like Liverpool.

 

If the alternative was Corbyn, Diane Abbot & co. then yes.

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If the alternative was Corbyn, Diane Abbot & co. then yes.

How is Corbyn a worse choice than May? How is any Tory even a consideration. Have you never been sick? Have you never been out priced of buying a home? Have you never paid criminal amounts on public transport?

 

Tories disgust me. They're unhuman,and it's a very sad world we live because of them. How anyone who supports a government that takes all the money away from the people is beyond me.

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