General Election/UK Politics

[MikeO]

15 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

I'll give you my honest opinion here now. I think that when people talk about foreigners using the NHS they don't really mean or perhaps understand who the foreigners are. I think what they are really getting at are British born Indians or Pakistanis. They use foreign as a catch all term for non-white whether they are born here or not.

No argument with that.

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

Do you genuinely believe that the majority of white British nationals think that people with a different colour skin are foreigners, if you were a white supremacist you would think that, if you were a member of a far right nationalist party you would possibly think that. 
I don’t know who you socialise with but I can genuinely say I know nobody who would believe that or even thinks that. 

There's a lot of them out there though Palf.

[Palfy]

Just now, TallPaul1878 said:

Are you incapable of reading or has the communist party bashed your brains out.

I'm suggesting that people who argue that immigrants are hurting the NHS are incorrectly lumping in non-white in general.

What part of this can't you understand or do you just see Nazis everywhere you look?

Im saying there not, and I know no one who thinks that, is that what you believe or do you personally know people who believe that. 

[MikeO]

12 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Im saying there not, and I know no one who thinks that, is that what you believe or do you personally know people who believe that. 

Going back many years (1977-94) the company I worked for in London employed (illegally at that time) many Polish workers in our factory, and the management were fine with them. The cab company that we had a contract with employed many black people so every time we booked one certain senior staff had as the catchphrase, "nigger in a Datsun on the way". It was unashamed and I, in a "senior" position but in tech so not involved with admin type stuff bit my tongue (to my shame).

There are millions of people like that still out there sadly imo.

Oh, and once I came down to Devon it was worse if anything.

[EFC-Paul]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I don’t agree with that, are you saying that 2 million more migrants are using our hospitals this year than used them in 2010  that’s why we’ve had a 25% increase in its demand, because that’s the only reason he can give for the extra demand and poor service, blame the foreigners. 

Did I say or suggest that!?

Simple facts are more people regardless of where they came from put more strain on the NHS 

I'm sure there's factual figures out there re immigrants but it's not something I can be arsed digging into as it's not about background it's simply about numbers to me 

When I'm saying that it includes increasing birth rates and population as a whole, let's not misconstrue what's being said into some daft race debate

I do agree Bailey it's ran piss poorly but I do think funding is massively under what's required, but do agree it needs to be spread and used much better 

[Palfy]

5 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

I come across all manner of people. I work in construction and deal with people from the bottom rung to the very top of the industry. I meet people with hardly any education and people who are well educated. I can only ever speak for myself and from what I have experienced and how I interpret the world.

I've worked in towns that have huge muslim communities like Oldham and Rochdale. I've worked in places like Birkenhead that is largely white working class and has lots of poverty. I've worked in places like Alderly Edge that are enclaves of privileged white middle class progressives.

I draw my opinions from my experiences. Yours may be different none the less but these are my experiences and they are genuine.

I’m not dismissing that there are people like that ( as there are communist with bashed out brains like me ) but not in the numbers that are making a difference to our democracy, if it did we would have voted to leave the EU got paranoid about letting other EU national’s in and blamed foreigners for the demise of our NHS.

Food for thought I guess. 

[Palfy]

25 minutes ago, EFC-Paul said:

Did I say or suggest that!?

Simple facts are more people regardless of where they came from put more strain on the NHS 

I'm sure there's factual figures out there re immigrants but it's not something I can be arsed digging into as it's not about background it's simply about numbers to me 

When I'm saying that it includes increasing birth rates and population as a whole, let's not misconstrue what's being said into some daft race debate

I do agree Bailey it's ran piss poorly but I do think funding is massively under what's required, but do agree it needs to be spread and used much better 

Yes more people will put more strain on the NHS over a period of time if the funding has stood still for years, but immigration is not the main cause of an over subscribed NHS, the funding hasn’t been given to keep up pace with a growing population, which a fraction is immigration yet these immigrants work in the main and contribute to the government for the service, the government then choose not to invest what we contribute in N I payments or if you’re self employed class 2 and 4 stamps. 

[MikeO]

Enjoying the fact that we can go back to debating this respectfully and without abuse, wonder why that is?

[Palfy]

22 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

It should be abundantly clear why Labour strongholds like Leigh voted Tory for the first time ever and it isn't because they became racist xenophobes over night.

It has been 40 years since they closed the pits and northern towns lost their industries to China and everywhere else. Whilst the big cities, that all vote Labour, have had the most success these towns have been left to die.

Whether the country does better or worse post Brexit is irrelevant to these people, they won't see any of the money anyway. The country needs to reset it's whole economy. We can't all be City traders, pilots or surgeons. Ordinary people need ordinary jobs and not a zero hour contract with Amazon. If that means a job in a factory making kettles and toasters then so be it but they need a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. All those years in the EU hasn't given them that.

Most of that is propaganda against the EU.

The pits closing nothing to do with the EU, that was solely a decision from this country. 
Zero contract hours not something given to us by the EU. 
You can’t force companies or manufacturer's to set up offices or factories in towns like Leigh and that’s not the EU’s fault, that’s down to the government to offer incentives for companies to move into these area’s and I’m sure they try, but there are other factors that companies take into consideration like a skilled workforce and good transportation links again out of the control of the EU. 
But I believe they were sold a lie that it will be better if we leave the EU, when really anyone with a bit of sense knows that employment opportunities in Leigh won’t get any better, no matter what Boris promised them. 

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

People get entrenched in their positions and battle lines get drawn. It is hard to cut through that. There are bad actors on both sides of any argument and the anonymity of the internet makes it easy to lose civility. Even just typing your comments doesn't really work because there is no nuance. If I were talking to you personally you would get the "cut of my gist" even if I was not executing it as best as I could. The internet doesn't allow for that and people end up getting frustrated with each other. Twitter is the prime example of that, also it is full of minge bags.

Thing is Paul when you discuss politics and religion people will be entrenched in their views they hold them nearly as dearly as life itself to some degree, we could discuss fashion or recipes if you like I’m sure there be less disagreement

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

They can be entrenched if they like, it would be best if people just took what I said into consideration. That maybe people aren't quite articulating themselves as well as they can. It would save a lot of headache if people had that outlook. That's ultimately their prerogative though, as frustrated as it makes them.

I wouldn't have any other debate. I'm most interested in politics, history, empires and cultural behaviours. 

I think most people take your views into consideration, and some agree with your views and some don’t, for me personally I have agreed with some of your political views in the past, but I’m a remainer for lots of reasons that I won’t go into but it’s irrelevant for me now, and time will tell if the leavers were right. 
But just because Brexit was delivered it doesn’t and won’t make me believe it is the right decision for this country or the people in it. 
For me the best way to debate politics is not to try and prove your right by talking down to or belittling the person or persons you are debating with, you can’t be right all the time. 

[Palfy]

11 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

The EU is racing towards a military union because it knows that without one it is doomed as it cannot compete for the resources that it needs.

I’m not sure what you mean by that statement, do you mean that they have decided to create a EU army so they can go to war or threaten in someways to get the resources it needs to function, sorry if that’s wrong but I can’t think what else you may of meant?

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Enjoying the fact that we can go back to debating this respectfully and without abuse, wonder why that is?

Is this going to turn into a guessing game, or do you have a theory that you could enlighten me with in a PM if necessary. 

[London Blue]

3 hours ago, TallPaul1878 said:

To lay the blame solely on the lack of funding is, in my opinion, a cop out.

The NHS is fairly well funded but clearly needs more. Demand is definitely outpacing supply and services are being cut in none critical areas to meet demand in others.

The NHS is poorly funded compared to spending on health services in Western Europe.

Many reasons for queues:

1) Lack of GP's - crisis in recruiting them.

2) Absolute failure to have a policy that deals with Social Care for elderly and critically ill, which leads to patients "bed blocking" (although I hate the term)

3) Lack of staff in general, there is a recruitment crises in many areas of the NHS with positions going unfilled for many months. 

The extra demand is in large part down to people not being able to go to their GP, no out of hours service in our area anymore for example. 

[MikeO]

26 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Is this going to turn into a guessing game, or do you have a theory that you could enlighten me with in a PM if necessary. 

You know.

[Palfy]

6 minutes ago, MikeO said:

You know.

with you now. 

[Johnsy]

On 14/01/2020 at 22:13, RPG said:

I find it amazing how so many European companies that had threatened to pull out of UK if we dared to implement brexit are now falling over themselves to extol the virtues of continuing and expanding their business in post brexit UK.

More project fear exposed as nothing more than cow towing to their EU masters.

The latest company to do a complete volte face being non other than Airbus!

https://ukupdates.co.uk/airbus-sees-great-potential-to-expand-after-brexit/

 

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, Johnsy said:

 

[Johnsy]

5 minutes ago, RPG said:

Very funny indeed. But the sentiment I posted still holds good. I normally pride myself on my spelling (usually after 3 or 4 corrections) but this one did slip through the net.

Here is what I really meant!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kowtow

How long did you have to search to find that pic? I'm impressed.

It was literally one of the first images that came up when searching "cow towing" - there are a surprising amount of pictures of cows being towed on the internet to be fair!

 

Apologies, I'm quite a pedant & that really jumped out at me when I was reading through the thread last night. I do utterly disagree with you about Brexit though & think it will be a complete disaster for the country, but I'm just a London lefty who works in the public sector so I would!

[pete0]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/pms-pledge-to-help-north-queried-as-ferry-workers-earn-1-74-an-hour/24/01/?fbclid=IwAR2I6nyDx2MNadgSiyNLkErc--NC-AX6ow3KEc8NHdP0n9c3OzwMXfkCZ_I

[pete0]

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-01-23/actor-simon-pegg-calls-for-higher-taxes-on-the-rich/?fbclid=IwAR2kyyBhtLJWg161KMrcLtNct4peKmY6HkGwFoFt1XusE_rLrY1lKdIg9hM

[pete0]

33 minutes ago, RPG said:

https://www.moorestephens.co.uk/msuk/moore-stephens-south/news/april-2016/the-tax-system-explained-using-a-beer-analogy

That's possibly one of the stupidest things I've ever read. 

If they're happy with the tax system. They're understand and be happy with how the extra £20 is divided as it's the same system. Absolutely no logic to beat up the 10th one.

[Palfy]

We could put our higher rate tax up by 5% and it would still be one of the lowest in the western world, these high earners are going no where. 
I think the common man will soon have to carry the burden of Brexit in all tax brackets, because I believe our government will be offering massive tax breaks to encourage companies to come here and to stop companies leaving, and we will be picking up the bill for it. 
I pay what I consider a huge amount in tax revenue and NI would I be willing to pay another 5% yes definitely, but not if they used it to give companies huge tax breaks. 

[pete0]

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2020/01/28/dwp-minister-thinks-foodbanks-are-a-perfect-solution/?fbclid=IwAR0kQqkWzuAeBPLGYMBIRPaAoMU_-Y6sUV6vEq1hVAEIObOUnNHNPPd6Wxw

Does my head in every time I see about food banks. Meant to be a first world country and we've got people who can't even afford to feed themselves. Or should I say a government that starving the very people they're meant to protect. 

Also on a side note, tories who actually donate to food banks need to give their head a wobble. Essentially you're voting to starve people so you can give them a tin of beans and make yourself feel good. If you really want to do something about it cast your vote accordingly. 

[pete0]

58 minutes ago, RPG said:

Agree with your sentiments about how there should never be food banks in a first world country pete0 but I suspect we won't ever agree on the causes of them - and, therefore, the solution.

While we have open borders, cheap foreign labour making UK citizens unemployed and are providing welfare to people who have contributed nothing to the welfare system, all we do is stoke demand for welfare even higher and suppress salaries. That is basic Keynesian theory - and Keynes is being defined more and more, nowadays, as a Liberal.

Most have left as the cost of living here leaves you with very little disposable income. They don't have any left to send home as the daily mail claims. 

That said, I have no time for zero hours contracts and the like and I can see this Tory government (now that it has such a majority) pushing back against these type of contracts.

They encourage it to disfigure employing stats. Just look at how much Sainsbury's donate to the party. 

The solution lies in controlling demand for welfare not increasing the supply of it imho. Also, controlling immigration (and, with it, the supply of foreign labour) should see employers having to increase salaries and scrap zero hours contracts which will reduce unemployment even further. Combined, these measures should obviate the need for food banks.

That's absolutely nonsensical. Welfare is there as a safety net. It should be supplied based on need full stop. Immigrants are net contributors. As for them lowering wages I'm pretty sure the majority don't get to pick their salary. 

Not looking for an argument but we can't continue like we are, and throwing yet more money at welfare would only make the demand on it even higher and require austerity in other areas to fund it. We have to move people into more secure, higher paid, permanent employment. It's better for them and better for UK.

That would be labour's solution. The tories have done the opposite, lowering employment rights, encouraging zero hour contracts. Tories believe in trickle down and have been making the rich richer but have done nothing to ensure companies distribute that extra wealth. Wages aren't growing fast enough, disposable income is down. 

 

For me, the solution is a strong Tory government (which we have already got) moving slightly to the Left (which seems to be already happening), rather than the extreme left policies of Corbyn and whichever clone replaces him.

Number of food banks before the tory government: 0. What are they doing to reduce the number? 

 

[pete0]

MPs expenses allowance per day to rise above what common folk get on universal credit per month. 

https://welfareweekly.com/lords-allowance-more-than-universal-credit/?fbclid=IwAR0cx5tvQ2kPBRnHX6SDFN0e03YB6gFlbZTMPVuS-hNrkMJ74hGW8tw4bbM

[johnh]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

MPs expenses allowance per day to rise above what common folk get on universal credit per month. 

https://welfareweekly.com/lords-allowance-more-than-universal-credit/?fbclid=IwAR0cx5tvQ2kPBRnHX6SDFN0e03YB6gFlbZTMPVuS-hNrkMJ74hGW8tw4bbM

No wonder Bercow is desperate to get in there.

[Chach]

16 hours ago, pete0 said:

MPs expenses allowance per day to rise above what common folk get on universal credit per month. 

https://welfareweekly.com/lords-allowance-more-than-universal-credit/?fbclid=IwAR0cx5tvQ2kPBRnHX6SDFN0e03YB6gFlbZTMPVuS-hNrkMJ74hGW8tw4bbM

Thats not MPs expenses Pete, members in the house of lords aren't salaried that allowance is it.

[MikeO]

2 hours ago, Chach said:

Thats not MPs expenses Pete, members in the house of lords aren't salaried that allowance is it.

Plus their travel expenses are paid and the poor impoverished guys have subsidised restaurant facilities; how's anyone supposed to survive on £323 a day?

[johnh]

34 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Plus their travel expenses are paid and the poor impoverished guys have subsidised restaurant facilities; how's anyone supposed to survive on £323 a day?

Be fair Mike.  During the recent storms, some of the poor guys won't have been able to get into London.  I think they have to sign in to get their money?  (Talking about the Lords here)

(this is an ironic post!)