Cenk Tosun

[Btay 2,015]

Almost feel that Niasse would be more of a threat coming on at the end of games.

[markjazzbassist 3,174]

6 minutes ago, Btay said:

Almost feel that Niasse would be more of a threat coming on at the end of games.

He’s available on a free

[c1982 2,597]

7 hours ago, Btay said:

Almost feel that Niasse would be more of a threat coming on at the end of games.

Tosun will be gone in January. He’s only on the bench to retain some value - if we completely freeze him out, we’re at risk of being stuck with him until his contract runs out. This is the same for a few at the moment - we’re paying the price for poor recruitment under previous managers. Hopefully, bar a couple where it’s clearly not worked for whatever reason e.g. Delph and Bernard/Gomes to some extent, our recruitment is much better now and we’re improving.

[Romey 1878 13,611]

1 hour ago, c1982 said:

Tosun will be gone in January. He’s only on the bench to retain some value - if we completely freeze him out, we’re at risk of being stuck with him until his contract runs out. This is the same for a few at the moment - we’re paying the price for poor recruitment under previous managers. Hopefully, bar a couple where it’s clearly not worked for whatever reason e.g. Delph and Bernard/Gomes to some extent, our recruitment is much better now and we’re improving.

The only clubs that will take him will be Turkish and they won't pay for him, it'll be a loan, so what value is he retaining? Especially when he comes on and looks useless. 

Made even more painful by Kean scoring again last night while Tosun was sealing United's win. Note, I'm not saying we should have kept Kean, I was never convinced on his showings for us, but it was an idiotic decision to let him go and not bring someone useful in. 

[Matt 8,099]

http://www.football-oranje.com/tosun-a-target-for-feyenoord/

[c1982 2,597]

1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

The only clubs that will take him will be Turkish and they won't pay for him, it'll be a loan, so what value is he retaining? Especially when he comes on and looks useless. 

Loan deals involve fees and wage payments - it’ll amount to a few million rather than us paying him £80k or whatever a week rotting in our reserves.

Let’s hope the clown who signed him for us still rates him!

[Zoo 2.0 965]

10 minutes ago, c1982 said:

Loan deals involve fees and wage payments - it’ll amount to a few million rather than us paying him £80k or whatever a week rotting in our reserves.

Let’s hope the clown who signed him for us still rates him!

Wouldn't surprise me at all if West Brom took him for six months on loan, he (Sam) tried to sign him at Palace before moving to us so clearly liked the look of him. 

As you say, loan deals will come with some financial benefit so better than nothing, if uninspiring.

[Bill 1,299]

I still can't believe that the manager got rid of Moise Keen and kept this muppet.

[duncanmckenzieismagic 5,221]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12179098/west-brom-sam-allardyce-keen-on-signing-cenk-tosun-but-prioritising-defender-in-january-window

 

Worth throwing in Branthwaite on loan until the end of the season as a sweetener if it means we get rid of Tosun  

[Hafnia 6,618]

It's been picked up that he did a fascist salute when scoring the disallowed goal.... He's denied it but I imagine this will rumble on. 

 

[Romey 1878 13,611]

1 minute ago, Hafnia said:

It's been picked up that he did a fascist salute when scoring the disallowed goal.... He's denied it but I imagine this will rumble on. 

 

It wouldn't be the first time he's done it if I remember rightly.

[Matt 8,099]

5 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

It wouldn't be the first time he's done it if I remember rightly.

It’s not but as he described last time, it’s in support of his nations servicemen and women. Not their fault the cause is awful. 

[nutmegwolf203 126]

21 hours ago, Matt said:

It’s not but as he described last time, it’s in support of his nations servicemen and women. Not their fault the cause is awful. 

Oof, that is conveniently deflective.

[Btay 2,015]

Well he can finish. Not a viable option to play uptop by himself however, ie seeing out a game with the other 9 behind the ball lumping it long.

I thought he was good once he got the ball into feet and looked after it well.

[Matt 8,099]

19 hours ago, nutmegwolf203 said:

Oof, that is conveniently deflective.

Still true though. 

11 hours ago, Btay said:

Well he can finish. Not a viable option to play uptop by himself however, ie seeing out a game with the other 9 behind the ball lumping it long.

I thought he was good once he got the ball into feet and looked after it well.

His finishing has never really been an issue, probably the most natural finisher we have based on the training highlights. His issues are speed and work rate but he was always just a poacher. 

[chicagoblue 443]

Well, i'm not sure where on the very bad scale it is, but it's not good.

 

 

[Bailey 4,956]

I think the FA has already looked into this and waved it off. 

[nutmegwolf203 126]

11 hours ago, Matt said:

Still true though.

Come on.

At the International match in 2019 his salute in support of a tyrannical military campaign got completely swept under the rug.

From Wiki

Turkish Motives

Recent increase in jobless rate and electoral collaboration of opposition parties lead to significant AKP defeats in the 2019 Istanbul mayoral election, signaling difficulties for the leadership party.^[98] Military operations are known to boost nationalism and Turkey executive's popularity.^[98] It is also seen as an effective way to break apart opposition alliances, between pro-Kurdish and pro-peace representatives actively criminalized by the government, and other opposition parties who are faced with the dilemma of betraying the informal political alliance in order to showcast popular patriotism.^[98][99] Moreover, another driver for the Turkish operation into Syria is the domestic politics involving the 3.6 million Syrian refugees residing in Turkey—the highest number of refugees hosted by any country—which has led to increasing public dissatisfaction and therefore public support and pressure for intervention.^[100] The negative sentiment against refugees among the Turkish electorate allows Erdogan and his AKP to benefit from moving refugees back to Syria.^[98]

And now (potentially - and I think highly likely considering the reasoning for the offensive in the first place) support for a far right paramilitary group. His hand placement looks pretty deliberate to me.

But, assuming it's for the military again and not that specific group, why say anything now? I can't think of any other reason besides he agrees with the ethnic cleansing by whatever means his military uses and/or he likes the mission of this Grey Wolf organization; which preaches superiority of Turkish Muslims.

I think you can be pro-military and critical of your military at the same time but in that case he chose to be boisterous about a truly dishonorable campaign. Going out of your way to say anything is bizarre to me.

From Wiki

Human rights violations have also been reported. Amnesty International stated that it had gathered evidence of war crimes and other violations committed by Turkish and Turkey-backed Syrian forces who are said to "have displayed a shameful disregard for civilian life, carrying out serious violations and war crimes, including summary killings and unlawful attacks that have killed and injured civilians".^[67]

I guess I'm saying that any support should be troubling, whether he's lying about this scenario or not.

The FA is horrible at investigating these things. Based on recent results, they couldn't possibly posses the personnel or minds to accurately asses whether or not things are racist, homophobic, etc. Seems to me the representation on the committees that make these decisions is lacking. Since no one has any "stake" in what is and is not offensive they never find anything or seem to grossly mis-sentence players based on particular incidents.

One minute major social media companies are excusing hateful dialogue on their platforms, the next they're trying to backpedal that decision after an attempted coup on the United States Capitol. This stuff snowballs and at some point you won't be able to combat the evil that's grown in the absence of accountability.

Apathy kills, it really does.

[pete0 2,013]

 

 

[Shukes 4,452]

Just kicked out my eight year old son for the same thing.

In fact most the team raise their fingers to the air, seems a very popular goal celebration. 
 

I packed his stuff and told him how disgusted I was with him supporting such far right groups! 

[Matt 8,099]

4 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

 

So a half hearted gesture (with the wrong hand after looking up the Grey Wolf salute), which is just as much the same as Aguros celebration, is the cause of this?
 

And why say anything now? Probably because he hardly ever scores!

don’t get me wrong, if he is showing support for a far right organisation he should be ejected from the club today. I’m not being apathetic or ignoring the significance IF it’s the case. But I’m not going to judge based on Twitter accusations, a platform that makes the Daily Mail look credible. 

[Hafnia 6,618]

Let's be honest, if it was Allan or Richarlison we would be looking at the quickest way of dismissing it as we wouldn't want to lose them.

It's the way it works unfortunately. 

[Matt 8,099]

4 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Let's be honest, if it was Allan or Richarlison we would be looking at the quickest way of dismissing it as we wouldn't want to lose them.

It's the way it works unfortunately. 

It wouldn’t even be a point of discussion if it was one of our popular players. 

[Shukes 4,452]

He said it wasn’t... end of.

If a player wants to show his support, he would make a point of it, and not deny it wouldn’t he?

[StevO 5,790]

Did anyone know of Grey Wolves before this? I certainly didn’t. Now after this weird couple of days on social media I know about them. Somehow they have received the publicity off the back of this. Ridiculous. 

[Shukes 4,452]

The person who originally posted it, has since apologised. 

[Matt 8,099]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

The person who originally posted it, has since apologised. 

For those who have Twitter, maybe send him some congratulations for giving a far right party extra publicity for free whilst harassing the player? 

[nutmegwolf203 126]

3 hours ago, Shukes said:

He said it wasn’t... end of.

If a player wants to show his support, he would make a point of it, and not deny it wouldn’t he?

I can see the reasonings deduced from all these internet detectives, but no actually I don't agree.

Hateful people visibly support causes they shouldn't all the time and when pressed they don't really own up to it.

T***p is a perfect example of that. Or any Republican voter that lied in early polls about their support for him, because there's evidence of that. Happened in 2016 and we knew leading up to this election that many people didn't want to be known supporters until they cast their anonymous votes. Different scale but incredibly similar sentiments. The race was "shockingly" close for that reason. People spent weeks analyzing the sad truth that people wholeheartedly align with his views.

There's also Josh Hawley for example, the now disgraced senator here in the states that put his fist up in solidarity to the rioting terrorists just before entering the Capitol last week. Very clear photos of that. Obviously a different scenario that's near impossible to explain away but I bet you he'll side step it somehow. He can totally get away with it if he chooses the right language and denies as much as possible. He'll be fine. Multigenerational slight-of-hand.

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Let's be honest, if it was Allan or Richarlison we would be looking at the quickest way of dismissing it as we wouldn't want to lose them.

It's the way it works unfortunately. 

 

4 hours ago, Matt said:

It wouldn’t even be a point of discussion if it was one of our popular players. 

I'm glad this was brought up. Again something I disagree with. Let's keep the same energy for everyone. That's the point. There's no growth otherwise.

These are very real issues that happen to be presented in the realm of sport but that shouldn't mean you get a pass. If Richy fucked up I'd be the first one on here saying so. I don't understand the reluctance at being critical in these moments. We follow a club (that stands for a lot of good) not one single player and we can push each other to be better, especially when lives and common decency are at stake. 

2 hours ago, StevO said:

Did anyone know of Grey Wolves before this? I certainly didn’t. Now after this weird couple of days on social media I know about them. Somehow they have received the publicity off the back of this. Ridiculous. 

The internet is rife with outlets to find this information. People say the same things about stopping matches because of racist chants or making abuse known in any way. "Don't make a scene or give them the pleasure of riling you up." If Tosun wasn't celebrating this group then fair enough but prior evidence would suggest he'd be a prime candidate to do just that so I'm confused as to why people fear being investigative about it. Can't be tired of something we haven't done before...

I'm not trying to aimlessly drag a player, I'm trying to be thorough. We never are, the club lacks the tools, and the FA is useless.

[Shukes 4,452]

Nutmeg.... but that’s the point! He didn’t publicly support them. He did the EXACT opposite and say that he has never heard of them. That he was just thanking god because it had been so long since he had scored a goal. 
 

That’s the exact opposite of supporting them. He publicly said that he had no idea who they were, and that he wasn’t supporting them. 
 

It’s too easy these days to find something negative in everything people do. When sometimes they just simply raise their fo gets to the air to celebrate a goal.

[Shukes 4,452]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

For those who have Twitter, maybe send him some congratulations for giving a far right party extra publicity for free whilst harassing the player? 

Unfortunately that’s the nature of the beast mate. We live in a society where we look for negatives at all times. 
Myself, I choose to believe he was just celebrating scoring a goal.... like he said himself. 

[nutmegwolf203 126]

 

13 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Nutmeg.... but that’s the point! He didn’t publicly support them. He did the EXACT opposite and say that he has never heard of them. That he was just thanking god because it had been so long since he had scored a goal. 
 

That’s the exact opposite of supporting them. He publicly said that he had no idea who they were, and that he wasn’t supporting them. 
 

It’s too easy these days to find something negative in everything people do. When sometimes they just simply raise their fo gets to the air to celebrate a goal.

Sure, I get all that, not worth the back and forth.

On 09/01/2021 at 12:34, Matt said:

It’s not but as he described last time, it’s in support of his nations servicemen and women. Not their fault the cause is awful. 

I'll also admit that I was reacting to this reasoning the most, in regards to the most recent incident. In my mind it's significantly different to just being thankful and raise one's hands as a gesture of praise. I take no issue with the second reasoning at all. 

But in a more broad way, I guess I'm saying that I think matters of equality are a blind spot for this forum, football, and sports in general. It's always frustrating to see people rush to defend their players so much that they abandon causality or systemic issues. I've been skeptical of him since that match in 2019, but I'll let it go considering nothing comprehensive has been done.

Simply asking someone: "do you support this far-right group?" is not an investigation in my opinion.

[Shukes 4,452]

Maybe you don’t believe the strength of this persons convictions. 
If you ask me if I support Everton for example, and I’m in a room full of Shite supporters..... I’m going to two you in a very loud and forceful voice that I do. That’s because I support my own convictions.

The only reason I would deny it, would be I didn’t. 
 

I don’t rate Tosun as a player, even after scoring the other night I thought he was still crap. But I have no reason to think he would stand up on TV and support this group... then totally back down and clam up when asked about it. If he supported them, I would accept him to take the chance when asked to show his support...... but he didn’t, he said he had no idea who they were.

Anyway, I’m going to trust him, while understanding your reasons for not.

[pete0 2,013]

25 minutes ago, nutmegwolf203 said:

 

Sure, I get all that, not worth the back and forth.

I'll also admit that I was reacting to this reasoning the most, in regards to the most recent incident. In my mind it's significantly different to just being thankful and raise one's hands as a gesture of praise. I take no issue with the second reasoning at all. 

But in a more broad way, I guess I'm saying that I think matters of equality are a blind spot for this forum, football, and sports in general. It's always frustrating to see people rush to defend their players so much that they abandon causality or systemic issues. I've been skeptical of him since that match in 2019, but I'll let it go considering nothing comprehensive has been done.

Simply asking someone: "do you support this far-right group?" is not an investigation in my opinion.

The investigation was probably them looking at the video and deciding no case to answer. Have you watched the celebration or just judging it on the still?

[nutmegwolf203 126]

Just now, pete0 said:

The investigation was probably them looking at the video and deciding no case to answer. Have you watched the celebration or just judging it on the still?

I watched it.

Watched the match live then I've seen the video. I realize I have a very different perspective and opinion to most here on TT. Not necessarily profound lol, but alternative nonetheless. It doesn't mean I'm trying to be loud for the sake of it. I've already said that I'll let that go if that reasoning is indeed the truth. Without being more comprehensive there's no way to know. Thus the cycle. Whether he did or not the tools to be sure are lacking. That's more my point.

No one's really questioned these things beyond speculation so perhaps it could be worth it. Equity is treated as speculative in the Premier League. 

The government he supports is known for summary killings and displacement that was reported by Amnesty International around the time of the salute in 2019. I'm not sure what's redeeming about any of that. Maybe someone could confirm otherwise but I feel like that type of organization doesn't make false claims all that often.

I'm not even saying Tosun is in favor of all those things, far from it - but blindly supporting it is also damaging.

I don't claim to have all of the answers but having been around activists and civil rights leaders most of my life I can say that from the outside, what passes as equal justice initiatives in football are subpar, at best.

[markjazzbassist 3,174]

23 minutes ago, nutmegwolf203 said:

I watched it.

Watched the match live then I've seen the video. I realize I have a very different perspective and opinion to most here on TT. Not necessarily profound lol, but alternative nonetheless. It doesn't mean I'm trying to be loud for the sake of it. I've already said that I'll let that go if that reasoning is indeed the truth. Without being more comprehensive there's no way to know. Thus the cycle. Whether he did or not the tools to be sure are lacking. That's more my point.

No one's really questioned these things beyond speculation so perhaps it could be worth it. Equity is treated as speculative in the Premier League. 

The government he supports is known for summary killings and displacement that was reported by Amnesty International around the time of the salute in 2019. I'm not sure what's redeeming about any of that. Maybe someone could confirm otherwise but I feel like that type of organization doesn't make false claims all that often.

I'm not even saying Tosun is in favor of all those things, far from it - but blindly supporting it is also damaging.

I don't claim to have all of the answers but having been around activists and civil rights leaders most of my life I can say that from the outside, what passes as equal justice initiatives in football are subpar, at best.

what are your thoughts on the cavani ban?  deserved or not?

[nutmegwolf203 126]

21 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

what are your thoughts on the cavani ban?  deserved or not?

I have a lot of thoughts on that Mark, really glad you brought it up.

I'll put something together after the game!

[Sir McGiven 247]

16 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

 

And that idiotic fascist salute (I hate those grey wolves) is usually done by two hands. It is not a one-handed salute and the national team salute to support the army is another story. I don't want to discuss it anymore on this forum as I couldn't get proper answers last time. Anyways...

I think people are up to execution with extreme prejudice more than ever because of virtue signalling for every single sh*t on media/social media. He clearly said that a fascist salute was not his intention and that must be the end of the story. There are no single sign or behaviour from his German or Turkey career days of being a far-right supporter as well. To be fair, there is no clear evidence to blame, only exaggerated SJW nonsense which assumes the intenions.

Having actively on the field globally (Asia, Middle East, Africa, Europe, Central America...) as an NGO worker and hardcore civil rights movements supporter, these are my elegant opinions on what happened. Looks like it is how you urge your personal opinions upon the public.

 

[Romey 1878 13,611]

https://www.teamtalk.com/news/agent-claims-cenk-tosun-top-west-brom-target-sam-allardyce

[markjazzbassist 3,174]

Good sell him get rid