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Abdoulaye Doucouré


Peter H

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3 hours ago, StevO said:

We have a director of football. So would make sense if he wanted him then and still wants him now. 

I don’t follow that, wasn’t it Silva who wanted to bring him here at the same time as Richarlison, like Richarlison he was never one of Brands picks. 
I also struggle with the idea a manager would say I want a MF to a DoF go find me one, managers should know the players they want and if they don’t they shouldn’t be managing. 

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23 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

we tried to get him multiple times with marco and he said he wanted to stay.

From what I rememeber there has been articles over the past couple of years with him saying he wants to leave Watford. I'd imagine Watford were playing hard ball after the Richarlison deal - but maybe he was holding out for a better club. I don't see that as a mercenary, most players do that.

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57 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I don’t follow that, wasn’t it Silva who wanted to bring him here at the same time as Richarlison, like Richarlison he was never one of Brands picks. 
I also struggle with the idea a manager would say I want a MF to a DoF go find me one, managers should know the players they want and if they don’t they shouldn’t be managing. 

That is how it works though. So the manager can concentrate on the players he has at his disposal and doesn’t have to run the whole scouting department. He would then only have to research the suggested players, not do everything himself. The days of managers running football clubs from top to bottom are over. 
Onviously managers will still make suggestions on players they already want and know, such as Richarlison or Carlo with Allan. 
It also gives the club continuity when managers leave. 
 

Im not suggesting this is what the club should do. I’m just posting what I know is already in place in many many clubs who operate a director of football and manager combo, and both Marcel and Carlo will be used to this set up. 

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56 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yeah go to the first page of this thread.  he said he wouldn't leave watford for a team that wasn't as good.  now all of a sudden we are good enough, no thanks.  we don't need another mercenary.

If you don’t want to see the club sign mercenaries I’m surprised you’ve stuck with watching football for so long Mark. Players don’t sign for anyone other than the highest payer very often. I’d be surprised if less than half of any starting eleven weren’t there for the money. 

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1 hour ago, StevO said:

If you don’t want to see the club sign mercenaries I’m surprised you’ve stuck with watching football for so long Mark. Players don’t sign for anyone other than the highest payer very often. I’d be surprised if less than half of any starting eleven weren’t there for the money. 

allan is not getting playing time, he wants to move to start each week.  other players move for european football, or because they want a chance to win a trophy.  or maybe a new league, new challenge, new country to live in.  this guy said he wasn't interested in us, gets relegated and now all of a sudden he's interested.  there aren't many players like that ste that we are interested in.  unless we are back in for giroud and i just don't know it.

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7 hours ago, StevO said:

That is how it works though. So the manager can concentrate on the players he has at his disposal and doesn’t have to run the whole scouting department. He would then only have to research the suggested players, not do everything himself. The days of managers running football clubs from top to bottom are over. 
Onviously managers will still make suggestions on players they already want and know, such as Richarlison or Carlo with Allan. 
It also gives the club continuity when managers leave. 
 

Im not suggesting this is what the club should do. I’m just posting what I know is already in place in many many clubs who operate a director of football and manager combo, and both Marcel and Carlo will be used to this set up. 

I would have thought the manager says to the DoF this is who I want go get them, if you have any problems let me know and I will try to intervene, not the DoF saying this is who I’ve got you, and of course he can make suggestions but no first team player should come to any club on the say so of the DoF, and yes he can bring young prospects in to advance through the ranks, and the manager would have no concerns with that because they wouldn’t effect his first team squad, but as for the DoF deciding who’s brought into the first team squad I’m very very sceptical that that happens any where. 

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A few managers have explained how the DOF works. The managers are there to manage the team, not the club.

The manager recognises weak areas where he needs to strengthen, and the DOF goes and looks for players that fit what the manager is looking for. They come back with a list of players to discuss worth the manager. Between them, they decide on the best targets.

I think the word manager is misleading for a football team. They don’t manage the club, they just manage the team.

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43 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I would have thought the manager says to the DoF this is who I want go get them, if you have any problems let me know and I will try to intervene, not the DoF saying this is who I’ve got you, and of course he can make suggestions but no first team player should come to any club on the say so of the DoF, and yes he can bring young prospects in to advance through the ranks, and the manager would have no concerns with that because they wouldn’t effect his first team squad, but as for the DoF deciding who’s brought into the first team squad I’m very very sceptical that that happens any where. 

"This is who I've got you" isn't what Steve said though, Palf.

28 minutes ago, Shukes said:

A few managers have explained how the DOF works. The managers are there to manage the team, not the club.

The manager recognises weak areas where he needs to strengthen, and the DOF goes and looks for players that fit what the manager is looking for. They come back with a list of players to discuss worth the manager. Between them, they decide on the best targets.

I think the word manager is misleading for a football team. They don’t manage the club, they just manage the team.

This is what Steve was saying. The manager says I want a midfielder/defender/striker/whatever with these attributes. the DoF then compiles a list of players with these attributes and they go through it together to decide which of those players would be the most suitable.

It's a joint decision for the most part but the manager probably has slightly more power in the decision.

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I would have thought the manager says to the DoF this is who I want go get them, if you have any problems let me know and I will try to intervene, not the DoF saying this is who I’ve got you, and of course he can make suggestions but no first team player should come to any club on the say so of the DoF, and yes he can bring young prospects in to advance through the ranks, and the manager would have no concerns with that because they wouldn’t effect his first team squad, but as for the DoF deciding who’s brought into the first team squad I’m very very sceptical that that happens any where. 

A player wouldn’t be brought in unless the manager also agrees with the director of football. Marcel has said that himself. 

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12 minutes ago, Makis said:

Manager is almost an archaic term these days. In Continental Europe the term they use is coach or trainer rather than manager as there traditionally manager did not sign the players.

I agree. Manager is too much of a blanket term. Head coach is much more appropriate I think. 
In basketball & NFL it seems to me their equivalent of a director of football they call a general manager, and the guy who looks after the players is the coach. It makes more sense to me that way. 
 

In my line of work a lot of companies have replaced the title “manager” with “leader”. Makes it a bit confusing during recruitment though. 

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6 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

allan is not getting playing time, he wants to move to start each week.  other players move for european football, or because they want a chance to win a trophy.  or maybe a new league, new challenge, new country to live in.  this guy said he wasn't interested in us, gets relegated and now all of a sudden he's interested.  there aren't many players like that ste that we are interested in.  unless we are back in for giroud and i just don't know it.

I agree Allan would be happy to leave as he’s not playing, but you don’t think if someone offers him more money he wouldn’t go there instead?

You think all those players that signed for City and Chelsea when their money came in wasn’t because they earned crazy money? 
It’s all money. you think we have any other way to attract footballer other than big fat wages? We really don’t.

Ever stayed in a job and later thought it was a bad call? Why should a footballer not be able to change his mind?

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

A few managers have explained how the DOF works. The managers are there to manage the team, not the club.

The manager recognises weak areas where he needs to strengthen, and the DOF goes and looks for players that fit what the manager is looking for. They come back with a list of players to discuss worth the manager. Between them, they decide on the best targets.

I think the word manager is misleading for a football team. They don’t manage the club, they just manage the team.

Yes the manager does manager the team, and the first team players are the team and he is responsible for how they play and those bought under his tenure, the DoF is not responsible for the management of the club either. 

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1 hour ago, StevO said:

I agree. Manager is too much of a blanket term. Head coach is much more appropriate I think. 
In basketball & NFL it seems to me their equivalent of a director of football they call a general manager, and the guy who looks after the players is the coach. It makes more sense to me that way.

I follow NHL and they have the exact same system there as well.

In fact the way managers work in English football is rare in any sports.

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12 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Yes the manager does manager the team, and the first team players are the team and he is responsible for how they play and those bought under his tenure, the DoF is not responsible for the management of the club either. 

You might not like how it works mate, but that is how it works. 

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18 hours ago, Bailey said:

I just find this odd. He was a player we wanted last year with a different manager and now he is apparently a target of Ancelotti’s and ahead of a player he has worked with before? 

I'd guess its BS. 

 

That logic doesn’t makes sense though, we’ve had Brands here during that time 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Yes the manager does manager the team, and the first team players are the team and he is responsible for how they play and those bought under his tenure, the DoF is not responsible for the management of the club either. 

I just meant that the manager doesn’t have sole responsibility of what players come in. 
managers change much to often for them to choose all the players. They have to be able to work with the team they are given.

They ask for more players, or players of a certain type.... and the money men decide.

I don’t make these decisions mate.

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2 hours ago, Makis said:

Manager is almost an archaic term these days. In Continental Europe the term they use is coach or trainer rather than manager as there traditionally manager did not sign the players.

Yeah coach and GM make more sense.  There are some outliers.  Bill belichek of the New England patriots is both coach and GM (or manager in premier league sense).  But there are very few in US sports that do both.

2 hours ago, StevO said:

I agree Allan would be happy to leave as he’s not playing, but you don’t think if someone offers him more money he wouldn’t go there instead?

You think all those players that signed for City and Chelsea when their money came in wasn’t because they earned crazy money? 
It’s all money. you think we have any other way to attract footballer other than big fat wages? We really don’t.

Ever stayed in a job and later thought it was a bad call? Why should a footballer not be able to change his mind?

I don’t think he would, I think then it comes down to the manager and seeing as one we have that rates him and they along well that would be the pull.  When you are making millions upon millions a year, 100k difference is nothing to you.  

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18 hours ago, StevO said:

From how I understand the director of football situation; manager says “I need a midfielder”, director of football comes back with a bunch of options and they agree on targets. 
If Brands has brought Doucoure to the table and Carlo likes what he sees, they go for it. 
 

I agree that it’ll be interesting to see how this all unfolds. 

I agree but the bit that makes me unsure, and this is very likely my own error, is the assumption that Silva was the one that wanted Doucoure. Maybe he was always on Brands radar however as soon as the Silva rumours started, Doucoure was linked. 

It just seems very coincidental to me. 

8 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

"This is who I've got you" isn't what Steve said though, Palf.

This is what Steve was saying. The manager says I want a midfielder/defender/striker/whatever with these attributes. the DoF then compiles a list of players with these attributes and they go through it together to decide which of those players would be the most suitable.

It's a joint decision for the most part but the manager probably has slightly more power in the decision.

Should the manager have as much power if that is the case? You have scouts, a DoF who will have seen the player and done all the reports. The manager probably won't have looked at the player that closely, more so if he isnt based in the same country. Furthemore, the manager if allowed to, might have picked other players had he doen the research.

With that in mind, the manager might think he has the power but if all the options are from the DoF then the power is with him and the manager only has some power over the shortlist. 

This is why its important that the DoF picks the manager because the DoF controls the vision of the club and the manager has to fit in with that vision otherwise it creates conflicts and scapegoats.

 

@Matt I get that but see my first response to StevO above. (Sorry post you made accidently deleted)

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2 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I agree but the bit that makes me unsure, and this is very likely my own error, is the assumption that Silva was the one that wanted Doucoure. Maybe he was always on Brands radar however as soon as the Silva rumours started, Doucoure was linked. 

It just seems very coincidental to me. 

Should the manager have as much power if that is the case? You have scouts, a DoF who will have seen the player and done all the reports. The manager probably won't have looked at the player that closely, more so if he isnt based in the same country. Furthemore, the manager if allowed to, might have picked other players had he doen the research.

With that in mind, the manager might think he has the power but if all the options are from the DoF then the power is with him and the manager only has some power over the shortlist. 

This is why its important that the DoF picks the manager because the DoF controls the vision of the club and the manager has to fit in with that vision otherwise it creates conflicts and scapegoats.

 

@Matt I get that but see my first response to StevO above. (Sorry post you made accidently deleted)

I’ve searched various sites to find out what role a DoF has in a club, may I suggest most of you should do the same, it may make you see things differently, there are many sites with many people giving their opinions and views and who are in the game.  

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21 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

That’s reassuring to know if true that he did and possibly still does want to come here, for me he could offer us a lot I see him as a possible Yaya Toure type of player, or have I got my rose tinted classes on. 

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