Summer Transfer Window

[Ghoat]

On 21/06/2019 at 16:13, SpartyBlue said:

As an American, I'm always struck by this notion that every team needs to be constantly adding to their squad or falling behind. While there is certainly excitement over free agency in American sports the urgency isn't the same. Often just having the same team back and healthy with another year for the younger players to progress is just fine. There is so much turnover in football that I wonder if teams might sometimes be better off getting the guys they have to work better as a unit and develop together rather then bringing in 3,4,5,10 new players each window. We were a top 4 side or so the second half of the season. If you  told me that we had all the same 1st team players back again with one or two additions and some deadwood cleared out I'd be thrilled. I don't always see the need for an arms race, particularly when we are competing against teams with more bullets than us. Just my take, I'm curious what others think.

The squad building year to year, the business side, the player movements/contracts in world football is both fascinating and baffling to an American when first exposed to it. It's just so...foreign. Buying players from other clubs, letting other teams borrow a player for 6 months or a year, competing with teams/leagues in other countries for players, work permits, FFP rules, Cup and European competition, International breaks, relegation/promotion, signing 10 year olds to academies, no domestic league playoffs, away goal tie-breakers... Heck even the salary is expressed per week not per year. There is nothing like any of that in American pro sports to give us a reference point. Even after years of avidly following it, there are constantly things I learn. Or realize there are aspects of the business side or general MO of club operations that I barely have my head around. Simple Yank I guess 

I guess it would be just as baffling if the shoe was on the other foot looking at our pro sports. All our leagues are domestic without international peers/competitors. We have restricted and unrestricted free agents, collective bargaining agreements between the respective league and the player's union and salary caps (besides MLB). All of our games go to extra time if the game ends level. Winning the division only qualifies you for the playoffs to try to win the championship. Division/conference records are more important than overall record (besides MLB) Only MLB has an "academy system" via farm clubs/minors. Otherwise teams build year over year via the amateur draft of collegiate players who have up to 4 years of NCAA eligibility, free agency, or trades between teams - for other players and future draft picks.  

NBA is about 75% American players,  82 game season to determine who makes the play-offs. A 2 round draft, but if it's an American, they have to be out of college eligibility, or at least 19 and one year removed from high school graduation - and declare themselves eligible for the draft. 

NFL is virtually 100% from American colleges with a 16 game season to determine the playoffs. 7 round draft for those who have used their college eligibility. Or have used 3 years - or two years and a redshirt year - and declared themselves eligible. 

MLB is about 70% American players, 162 game season to determine who makes the play-offs. A 40 round amateur draft, and can draft American high school players. But no American college players unless they have finished their 3rd year. Unless they went to a 2 year college, and then they can be drafted any time. And they don't have to declare. If they don't like when or where they are drafted, they can go to/return to college if they have eligibility remaining. 

And in all cases, the player can't negotiate with any other team (without being traded) for a year, then can go back into the draft.  And if they sign with a sports agent they forfeit their remaining college eligibility even if they aren't draft-eligible. And yet all this seems kinda normal to us, and that barely even scratches the surface of collegiate athletics.

And then the poor MLS tries to bridge that huge gap with a hybrid between our professional structures/amateur draft and the way the rest of the footballing world conducts itself. Played at the wrong time of year of course.

As foreign as the business of world "soccer" is initially, at some point it's seemingly much more straightforward. Ish.

[markjazzbassist]

Great post.  I always enjoy being educated in the business side of the game on this forum.  I appreciate the members that are kind enough to explain things to us yanks. It is so different but I prefer the European system.  Promotion and relegation being the biggest factor for me.

[SpartyBlue]

59 minutes ago, Ghoat said:

The squad building year to year, the business side, the player movements/contracts in world football is both fascinating and baffling to an American when first exposed to it. It's just so...foreign. Buying players from other clubs, letting other teams borrow a player for 6 months or a year, competing with teams/leagues in other countries for players, work permits, FFP rules, Cup and European competition, International breaks, relegation/promotion, signing 10 year olds to academies, no domestic league playoffs, away goal tie-breakers... Heck even the salary is expressed per week not per year. There is nothing like any of that in American pro sports to give us a reference point. Even after years of avidly following it, there are constantly things I learn. Or realize there are aspects of the business side or general MO of club operations that I barely have my head around. Simple Yank I guess 

I guess it would be just as baffling if the shoe was on the other foot looking at our pro sports. All our leagues are domestic without international peers/competitors. We have restricted and unrestricted free agents, collective bargaining agreements between the respective league and the player's union and salary caps (besides MLB). All of our games go to extra time if the game ends level. Winning the division only qualifies you for the playoffs to try to win the championship. Division/conference records are more important than overall record (besides MLB) Only MLB has an "academy system" via farm clubs/minors. Otherwise teams build year over year via the amateur draft of collegiate players who have up to 4 years of NCAA eligibility, free agency, or trades between teams - for other players and future draft picks.  

NBA is about 75% American players,  82 game season to determine who makes the play-offs. A 2 round draft, but if it's an American, they have to be out of college eligibility, or at least 19 and one year removed from high school graduation - and declare themselves eligible for the draft. 

NFL is virtually 100% from American colleges with a 16 game season to determine the playoffs. 7 round draft for those who have used their college eligibility. Or have used 3 years - or two years and a redshirt year - and declared themselves eligible. 

MLB is about 70% American players, 162 game season to determine who makes the play-offs. A 40 round amateur draft, and can draft American high school players. But no American college players unless they have finished their 3rd year. Unless they went to a 2 year college, and then they can be drafted any time. And they don't have to declare. If they don't like when or where they are drafted, they can go to/return to college if they have eligibility remaining. 

And in all cases, the player can't negotiate with any other team (without being traded) for a year, then can go back into the draft.  And if they sign with a sports agent they forfeit their remaining college eligibility even if they aren't draft-eligible. And yet all this seems kinda normal to us, and that barely even scratches the surface of collegiate athletics.

And then the poor MLS tries to bridge that huge gap with a hybrid between our professional structures/amateur draft and the way the rest of the footballing world conducts itself. Played at the wrong time of year of course.

As foreign as the business of world "soccer" is initially, at some point it's seemingly much more straightforward. Ish.

Excellent post and relatable for a fellow yank. When I first started watching “soccer” seriously it seemed outlandish that a team had to pay millions to another team for the right to pay a player many more millions. Of course we do have cases where a team might agree to pay a percentage of a players salary as part of a trade but the idea that you had to pay a club to take a player as standard operating procedure seemed very strange. 

The other thing that struck me was just how much power the players have. There are certainly holdouts in American sports but it’s somewhat unusual and it’s generally done to get a better contract with your current team. While it happens occasionally in football, the idea that Lebron James, for instance, would hold out and refuse to play until the Cavaliers agreed to trade him to the Lakers is difficult to imagine. In a sport like baseball it would be unthinkable.

The one feature I loved was relegation. think relegation would be amazing in American sports. We don’t have the structure for it except in baseball and possibly hockey but it would completely eliminate tanking which has become a major issue, particularly in basketball. 

[Ghoat]

Differing thoughts on American relegation, for later when I can get thoughts together.

 

But a question on contracts and disputes - 

In American sports if a player is really unhappy with his team on contract, the only real leverage he has is to hold out until a resolution is reached. That can means he refuses to come to mandatory preseason workout and practices, and can even extend into the season as he tries to pressure the team into an improved contact or trade. In that case, the team doesn't have to pay him, and if he has incentives for performance or stats that's his risk. It's almost always for more money from his current team, it's rarely for a trade unless there is a major personality conflict -  there is only one league with 30ish teams who may or may not want him anyway. It's all very public when there is an impasse, because the player is visibly not with the team, as opposed to "reports" from all over the Europe that a player is suddenly being "linked" with various clubs. If he gets a new deal with the club before the season starts, everyone holds hand and hugs and it's forgotten very soon by the team, fans, media etc

Can professional footballers "hold out" and refuse to join training, and if so can teams dock their wages? I don't recall ever seeing it come to that. But as SpartyBlue says, the players/agents have a lot more options and power, especially when they want to force a move.

[SpartyBlue]

2 hours ago, Ghoat said:

Differing thoughts on American relegation, for later when I can get thoughts together.

 

But a question on contracts and disputes - 

In American sports if a player is really unhappy with his team on contract, the only real leverage he has is to hold out until a resolution is reached. That can means he refuses to come to mandatory preseason workout and practices, and can even extend into the season as he tries to pressure the team into an improved contact or trade. In that case, the team doesn't have to pay him, and if he has incentives for performance or stats that's his risk. It's almost always for more money from his current team, it's rarely for a trade unless there is a major personality conflict -  there is only one league with 30ish teams who may or may not want him anyway. It's all very public when there is an impasse, because the player is visibly not with the team, as opposed to "reports" from all over the Europe that a player is suddenly being "linked" with various clubs. If he gets a new deal with the club before the season starts, everyone holds hand and hugs and it's forgotten very soon by the team, fans, media etc

Can professional footballers "hold out" and refuse to join training, and if so can teams dock their wages? I don't recall ever seeing it come to that. But as SpartyBlue says, the players/agents have a lot more options and power, especially when they want to force a move.

You’ve hit on the main difference with contracts. As far as I’m aware, a player can sit out and still collect his wages. This, combined with a diminishing club fee as a player’s contract winds down, gives his team very little leverage to force him to play. 

I suppose there already exists a free agency of sorts  in football so I won’t ask about that but what does everyone think of allowing trades? I know there can be player swaps as part of deal but I’m talking about straight swaps where the club has the power. For the most elite athletes in American sports they sometimes have no trade clauses inserted into their contract or a list of places where they would be willing to go. Most, however, are at their whim of their clubs. 

[markjazzbassist]

Another thing that’s different in American sports the contract follows the player.  5 year 150 mil and regardless of where They are traded the team has to take both the player and the terms of the contract.  In European football the contract is terminated the minute they are no longer a player for you.  Sign for another side in a transfer and a new deal with new wages are negotiated.  

 

To me the european model makes sense, why stick the new team with a shitty contract?  It’s easier to offload bad players or bad contracts this way.

[Romey 1878]

6 hours ago, SpartyBlue said:

You’ve hit on the main difference with contracts. As far as I’m aware, a player can sit out and still collect his wages. This, combined with a diminishing club fee as a player’s contract winds down, gives his team very little leverage to force him to play. 

I suppose there already exists a free agency of sorts  in football so I won’t ask about that but what does everyone think of allowing trades? I know there can be player swaps as part of deal but I’m talking about straight swaps where the club has the power. For the most elite athletes in American sports they sometimes have no trade clauses inserted into their contract or a list of places where they would be willing to go. Most, however, are at their whim of their clubs. 

The clubs can fine them wages if they decide not to come to training.

The American system seems so alien to me, as the European way does to you. Trading comes across as absolutely crazy in that you just tell a player he's going to a new club and they have no say in it (for the most part) and that could mean them moving thousands of miles away. Mad.

[SpartyBlue]

4 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

The clubs can fine them wages if they decide not to come to training.

The American system seems so alien to me, as the European way does to you. Trading comes across as absolutely crazy in that you just tell a player he's going to a new club and they have no say in it (for the most part) and that could mean them moving thousands of miles away. Mad.

Part of the effect of the American system (combined with a salary cap) is that there is a lot more parity.  There are certainly advantages to being a really attractive city like New York or L.A. but any team in the league can be competitive and, with good management/drafting, compete for a title. The gap between the top and the bottom in the premier league is much wider and it’s worse in Germany, Spain, Italy etc..

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, SpartyBlue said:

Part of the effect of the American system (combined with a salary cap) is that there is a lot more parity.  There are certainly advantages to being a really attractive city like New York or L.A. but any team in the league can be competitive and, with good management/drafting, compete for a title. The gap between the top and the bottom in the premier league is much wider and it’s worse in Germany, Spain, Italy etc..

not so much any more, look at the NBA.  New York Knicks can't get a marquee signing to save their life.  the NY effect is gone.  Players want to WIN and are going to small teams and cities with no night life to do so.  The players and agents have found the loopholes and are exploiting them so the parity is gone.  Look at the GSW who are in the finals every year for the last what 5 years?  no parity there.

[Matt]

Marko Arnautovic submits transfer request at West Ham.

dreading the inevitable links...

[markjazzbassist]

4 minutes ago, Matt said:

Marko Arnautovic submits transfer request at West Ham.

dreading the inevitable links...

he wants to go to china, he's 30 and wants one big last payday.  nothing in it for us.

[Matt]

Just now, markjazzbassist said:

he wants to go to china, he's 30 and wants one big last payday.  nothing in it for us.

I hope not but I also know how lazy sorts journalists can be...

[Ghoat]

5 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

The clubs can fine them wages if they decide not to come to training.

The American system seems so alien to me, as the European way does to you. Trading comes across as absolutely crazy in that you just tell a player he's going to a new club and they have no say in it (for the most part) and that could mean them moving thousands of miles away. Mad.

A couple of things somewhat mitigate that - the being uprooted and moved thousands of miles. They're domestic leagues, and yes it's large country, but it's just one country. Unless you are traded from New York to Los Angles or Miami to Seattle, you're likely going from one large southern or midwestern city to another. There are some teams in Canada, but that's pretty much just Toronto, which is damn near in the US anyway. 

And to a degree, it's almost assumed/expected during the rise from high school star, to professional athlete. Our college sports/amateur system, which i know is very alien to the European system,  is where that starts really. If you are considered the best QB prospect in high school, you can probably get a scholarship to any college in the country. I think there are about 130 colleges (with 85 scholarship players each) that play in division 1. There are maybe 10-20 that may have a chance to compete for a title during the 4 years the player will be there. There are a myriad of things that determine where a player chooses to go - but it IS his choice. Chance for championships, reputation of school/coach for developing players for the NFL, how soon he may be able to start, relationship with coaches, favorite school blah blah blah. The majority (not all) of major college programs are not in big cities, but in smaller towns. Schools with 20,000 students in a town of less than 200,000 is pretty common. Clearly the players have to come from somewhere else. Usually within the state or nearby, but not always. The point is every year, you have over 3000 18 years making the choice to leave home and make a temporary 3-5 year move to another town, state or part of the country in an attempt to improve the chance of a successful pro career - and hopefully and education too.

I looked up the #1 (per the experts) quarterback for this upcoming year in high school. He is from some town in metro Los Angeles. He is going to Clemson (defending champs) next year. Clemson has about 25,000 students, in a rural town of 15,000 in the middle of nowhere, South Carolina - 2300 miles from home. Choosing to go from US metro area of 14 million people on the Pacific Coast, to a town in South Carolina (Atlantic Coast) so small if can't even fill Goodison Park. Because he thinks it's his best shot at the NFL.

One of the other top prospects is in Austin, TX which is where the University of Texas (powerhouse) is, so he's staying local. Another is from Phoenix, AZ and he's going to Ohio State in Columbus, OH. 2000 miles away from the desert town he grew up in, to a snowy hell 2 hours south of Lake Erie!

The type situations you referenced more often than not happen to young players, not veterans. Trades with multiple players are far more common in baseball than football and basketball combined. Often the younger player will see it as a better opportunity to advance his career in a place that wants him. Young American athletes are somewhat conditioned from early on that moving is just part of the path. It's exceptionally rare for a US pro athlete to even spend a significant portion of his athletic career within 250 or so miles from his hometown.

A west coast kid going to college in the south, drafted by Denver then traded to Cleveland doesn't seem odd to us. Not nearly as odd as a telling a 22 year old Liverpool kid "If you want to play next year...you will love Essen! Sorry you don't speak German, but they have an American kid on the team, he speaks a bastardized version of English - you'll be fine!" 

 

I mentioned Kenny at the end so I brought the post back on topic of "Summer Transfer Window". Ish.

[Ghoat]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

he wants to go to china, he's 30 and wants one big last payday.  nothing in it for us.

He is a great player. In FIFA 19. Otherwise, this is the last big payday you mention, that he started angling for in the January window. Hammer fans will probably help him pack.

[SpartyBlue]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

not so much any more, look at the NBA.  New York Knicks can't get a marquee signing to save their life.  the NY effect is gone.  Players want to WIN and are going to small teams and cities with no night life to do so.  The players and agents have found the loopholes and are exploiting them so the parity is gone.  Look at the GSW who are in the finals every year for the last what 5 years?  no parity there.

Well, in the case of the Knicks they have mismanaged that franchise for awhile. They are still much more of a draw than Cleveland, Detroit etc.. all things being equal. Also, the nets signed big time free agents and they are now based in Brooklyn so NY still wins. 

I’m speaking more about top to bottom parity. As good as the warriors are (were) they could still get beat on any given night by the worst team in the league. Financially and in every other way the difference between Man City, Bayern, Barca and the worst team in those leagues is far greater. Look no further than what they spend on players. Basketball might have the biggest gap of the 4 major American sports and it’s still not that big. Often the worst teams are just one great draft pick away from completely overhauling their franchise. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Ghoat said:

A west coast kid going to college in the south, drafted by Denver then traded to Cleveland doesn't seem odd to us. Not nearly as odd as a telling a 22 year old Liverpool kid "If you want to play next year...you will love Essen! Sorry you don't speak German, but they have an American kid on the team, he speaks a bastardized version of English - you'll be fine!" 

I know you say this bit in jest but Germany is only 700 miles away and enough will speak a bit of English. But to a Brit 700 miles is a lot. Rare for people to commute more than an 90 minutes or 100 miles over here. 

Any how, point why it's strange over here is that the player seems to have no say is and treated like a commodity. Over here it's common for players to move clubs due to location, they recognise its better for their mental health or their family and they move*. The American system seems too rigid, far too much control by the employers. It seems very totalitarian. 

*Lee Carsley moved to Birmingham as he didn't want to uproot his family and the commute was getting too much. More recently Girouds wife didn't want to move away from London. The Mrs also being the reason Eddie Howe has started South too. 

[StevO]

Didn’t know about Eddie Howe, but after a quick google of Mrs Giroud on the beach I can confirm I would also go wherever she told me.

[Cisk]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

Marko Arnautovic submits transfer request at West Ham.

dreading the inevitable links...

We dodged a bullet here

[Romey 1878]

4 hours ago, Ghoat said:

A couple of things somewhat mitigate that - the being uprooted and moved thousands of miles. They're domestic leagues, and yes it's large country, but it's just one country. Unless you are traded from New York to Los Angles or Miami to Seattle, you're likely going from one large southern or midwestern city to another. There are some teams in Canada, but that's pretty much just Toronto, which is damn near in the US anyway. 

And to a degree, it's almost assumed/expected during the rise from high school star, to professional athlete. Our college sports/amateur system, which i know is very alien to the European system,  is where that starts really. If you are considered the best QB prospect in high school, you can probably get a scholarship to any college in the country. I think there are about 130 colleges (with 85 scholarship players each) that play in division 1. There are maybe 10-20 that may have a chance to compete for a title during the 4 years the player will be there. There are a myriad of things that determine where a player chooses to go - but it IS his choice. Chance for championships, reputation of school/coach for developing players for the NFL, how soon he may be able to start, relationship with coaches, favorite school blah blah blah. The majority (not all) of major college programs are not in big cities, but in smaller towns. Schools with 20,000 students in a town of less than 200,000 is pretty common. Clearly the players have to come from somewhere else. Usually within the state or nearby, but not always. The point is every year, you have over 3000 18 years making the choice to leave home and make a temporary 3-5 year move to another town, state or part of the country in an attempt to improve the chance of a successful pro career - and hopefully and education too.

I looked up the #1 (per the experts) quarterback for this upcoming year in high school. He is from some town in metro Los Angeles. He is going to Clemson (defending champs) next year. Clemson has about 25,000 students, in a rural town of 15,000 in the middle of nowhere, South Carolina - 2300 miles from home. Choosing to go from US metro area of 14 million people on the Pacific Coast, to a town in South Carolina (Atlantic Coast) so small if can't even fill Goodison Park. Because he thinks it's his best shot at the NFL.

One of the other top prospects is in Austin, TX which is where the University of Texas (powerhouse) is, so he's staying local. Another is from Phoenix, AZ and he's going to Ohio State in Columbus, OH. 2000 miles away from the desert town he grew up in, to a snowy hell 2 hours south of Lake Erie!

The type situations you referenced more often than not happen to young players, not veterans. Trades with multiple players are far more common in baseball than football and basketball combined. Often the younger player will see it as a better opportunity to advance his career in a place that wants him. Young American athletes are somewhat conditioned from early on that moving is just part of the path. It's exceptionally rare for a US pro athlete to even spend a significant portion of his athletic career within 250 or so miles from his hometown.

A west coast kid going to college in the south, drafted by Denver then traded to Cleveland doesn't seem odd to us. Not nearly as odd as a telling a 22 year old Liverpool kid "If you want to play next year...you will love Essen! Sorry you don't speak German, but they have an American kid on the team, he speaks a bastardized version of English - you'll be fine!" 

 

I mentioned Kenny at the end so I brought the post back on topic of "Summer Transfer Window". Ish.

We won’t have just told Kenny that’s where he’s going though, that’s the difference. We’ll have told him the clubs interested in him and he’ll have chosen the move himself. 

[Finn balor]

Brands must trust him? Season of seasoning? Then make or break? Sensible 

[AlbanyNYToffee]

IN: Lossl, Gomes
OUT: Vlasic, Galloway
LOAN IN: 
LOAN OUT: Kenny, Sandro
YOUTH: Sebastian Kristensen
YOUTH pro deals: Ryan Astley, Kyle John, Anthony Gordon, Ellis Simms, Joe Anderson, Einar Iversen
CONTRACT EXT: Davies, Foulds, Ouzounidis, Baines, Mampala
OFFICIALLY RELEASED: Jags, A Williams, Lavery(Linfield), Hewelt, JHilton(Blackburn), Charsley, Mathis(Rodez), Kiersey(Walsall), Bramall, Renshaw

Out of contract: Sambou

[Ghoat]

4 hours ago, pete0 said:

I know you say this bit in jest but Germany is only 700 miles away and enough will speak a bit of English. But to a Brit 700 miles is a lot. Rare for people to commute more than an 90 minutes or 100 miles over here. 

Any how, point why it's strange over here is that the player seems to have no say is and treated like a commodity. Over here it's common for players to move clubs due to location, they recognise its better for their mental health or their family and they move*. The American system seems too rigid, far too much control by the employers. It seems very totalitarian. 

 

Agree on the distance and perspective of it. I have driven a lot for work, so if I am going somewhere for 3-4 days for work or play, and it's less than 10 hours (600 or so miles) I'll drive instead of fly and think nothing of it, and drive it again a few days later - and may only go through 3 or 4 states. I can't fathom that drive being through 3 (or more) different countries.

The US system is pretty rigid as far as where a player can choose to play, until they have been around a few years. But again that's just not as big a deal over here. With one or two exceptions, all the teams are in large metro area of over 500,000 people. American cities, with American teammates and staff. Different parts of the country are different to be sure, but there is no true culture shock to adjust to, no language barriers, same foods available, same currency, same laws. If he has kids, they aren't in a foreign world with school, language and culture, it's pretty homogeneous. A kid from a farm town in Mississippi who went to college in small college town like Auburn, Alabama and gets drafted by the Giants ans moves to New York City as 21 is going to be about as extreme as it gets.  That is not even remotely close to a 20 year old Richarlison adjusting to England, or a 25 year old Brazilian moving from the Ukraine to Liverpool.

Where the US player has the upper hand is wages. Everything is published. Players salaries and contract details, what the salary cap is, and how much "cap space" a team has - what they are allowed to spend less what they have spent. If Jimmy has a 4 year $12M contract, and after 2 years has performed better expected, he may demand a new deal. He and his agent can look at his peers, and realize they average making $6M per year, and know that the team has $10M in cap space,  Jimmy may demand a 3 year $18M contract. And all that will be in the open, so usually the media and fan base will support the player, because the know the team can afford it and they don't want to see Jimmy leave or the team suffer.  His teammates will generally support him publicly, but they will NOT say anything against him, even if they make half of what he does - they are all in the same union and back each other. The team/owner is seen as the bad guy if they stall,  public pressure is against them, and Jimmy probably gets a $2-3 million dollar raise. And there are no hard feelings, life goes on.

 

In the end, players have short careers and have to make the best of that time period, and teams have to be profitable, and successful by whatever their definition may be. Each system works, but they so so different

[Finn balor]

I’d expect Phillip Cocu at derby will be using his contact with marcel to be going after some of our young stars on loan. They’ve got a good young right back there aswell. His name escapes me 

[Finn balor]

Zouma has posted himself back in training at Chelsea. I feel a bit sick inside 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

Zouma has posted himself back in training at Chelsea. I feel a bit sick inside 

I think we need to forget about Zouma for this season at least, and hope that we can get a quality CB in because I’ll be honest Keane Mina and Holgate don’t fill me with confidence, Mina seems to pick up injuries on a regular basis and Holgate isn’t good enough. 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Finn balor said:

Zouma has posted himself back in training at Chelsea. I feel a bit sick inside 

He's contractually obliged to do so though surely?

[Finn balor]

Yeah just feel like girlfriend has left me for her ex 

[markjazzbassist]

I’m fine with keane Mina and holgate.  Remember we have solid fullbacks in Coleman and digne and baines too

[Btay]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

I’m fine with keane Mina and holgate.  Remember we have solid fullbacks in Coleman and digne and baines too

No chance - we should be looking at a solid cb. Even a loan and agree a fee Zouma for next season. We can’t depend on a kid who played mostly as RB as our back up CB

Coleman was hit and miss - Blaine’s is almost done. 

[markjazzbassist]

51 minutes ago, Btay said:

No chance - we should be looking at a solid cb. Even a loan and agree a fee Zouma for next season. We can’t depend on a kid who played mostly as RB as our back up CB

Coleman was hit and miss - Blaine’s is almost done. 

Other than spurs and city I don’t know of anyone who has a starting quality FB or CB on their bench.  Most CB and FB are durable and holgate is good, he was good even under koeman.  Leicester won the league with the same 4 Backline the whole season.  We have a good keeper and good CM as well.  The area for me to spend the money is striker if we must.  I think we need to offload a lot of players before we can do anything though. The wage bill is massive and the squad is too big.