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11 hours ago, London Blue said:

Pre season has nothing to do with being rusty due to being out for 3 weeks.

Yes he was poor today, but he has been good in the other games he has played in. He has formed a great relationship with the rest of our midfield. I look forward to seeing him continue that.

 

He's been better than we had been used to.  But nowhere near the levels he's capable of. 

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He was our best player by a country mile Sunday. I’d even go as far as saying at times he was the best player on the pitch. Ridiculously hard to get the ball off.  Massive, Massive talent 

It's hard to say considering it's my own club that's involved but is there really anywhere else that he should go? After making his dream move to Barcelona from Valencia he stated in an interview that

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4 hours ago, Palfy said:

He was very poor today his touch for what ever reason deserted him, and his decision making was off. 
I do get what Haf is getting at when he said he was hiding, just maybe the terminology is misleading, there were times when he was static and showing no movement to find space to receive the ball, but in his defence he was not the only one, I mentioned during the match a few times there was a distinct lack of movement in front of the back 4 and Allan, which you could see was frustrating Keane and Allan, I can only put this down to tiredness, I believe that work rate required to chase Liverpool when they were in possession took it’s toll on some players with Gomes being one, so when we eventually won the ball back some where looking for a little breather and not always willing to move and receive the ball immediately through exhaustion of working so hard chasing the ball and players down. 
And added to that for Gomes his poor first touch and decision making it turned into a very poor game for him, I thought he should have been replaced at halftime but this is only my opinion. 

He was doing what Siggy was doing at the end of lockdown.

Its sly and deceiving, I'm not arsed about the odd misplaced pass or whatever.  Forcing the centre half to go long or wide cos it's not going well is shithouse behaviour and j thought as a team we were showing more courage. 

He gets a fair bit of leeway cos his talent demands an element of faith. But he is not brave in taking the ball.  He is at risk of losing his place. 

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4 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I've no doubt you watched it.  Seeing it is another thing.

Gomes on several occasions pinned himself to a Liverpool player when we had the ball....  He wasn't wanting to get on the ball when defence were looking to get it out.

Hence Keane shouting at him.  Maybe bit was just me and Keane who seen it. 

Do you think Allan and Doucoure were hiding as well then? Because they obviously weren't making themselves available to receive the ball at these times either.

I'm not defending him, I think he had a terrible game for us. I'd just accuse him of losing the ball in dangerous areas due to some very poor passing, but I don't think he hid. If he did he wouldn't have even been able to lose the ball as often as he did.

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5 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Do you think Allan and Doucoure were hiding as well then? Because they obviously weren't making themselves available to receive the ball at these times either.

I'm not defending him, I think he had a terrible game for us. I'd just accuse him of losing the ball in dangerous areas due to some very poor passing, but I don't think he hid. If he did he wouldn't have even been able to lose the ball as often as he did.

My concern with Gomes is that his role within the team is to take the ball from defence and use it, yeah I expect that from all the players to a degree but Allan is primarily the ball winner who keeps it simple Doucoure is box to box, Gomes main role is to dictate play, use his passing .... Which was off yesterday.

He passed those duties on and to be perfectly honest I don't know what he offers to the team when he's not doing that 

Put simply, Siggy needs a stint.  Yeah, he did a great job of hide and point a few months back but he knows he can't now.  

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51 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

My concern with Gomes is that his role within the team is to take the ball from defence and use it, yeah I expect that from all the players to a degree but Allan is primarily the ball winner who keeps it simple Doucoure is box to box, Gomes main role is to dictate play, use his passing .... Which was off yesterday.

He passed those duties on and to be perfectly honest I don't know what he offers to the team when he's not doing that 

Put simply, Siggy needs a stint.  Yeah, he did a great job of hide and point a few months back but he knows he can't now.  

Gomes played poorly yesterday, nobody disagreed with that. But your conclusions based on one poor game are questionable. 

You say he hid, did not show for the ball but as Romey said how could he be poor at passing if he hid for the ball? According to the stats he attempted 78 passes, 2 more than Doucoure and completed the same number. Not the stats of someone who went hiding are they, unless your accusing Doucoure hiding too?

You suggest playing Siggy in his place, yet Siggy has played his best for us recently in a more attacking role higher up the pitch, not taking the ball from defence. Playing players out of position was one of the many reasons we have been so poor over the last couple of years.

Gomes had 1 poor game, if he has a few more he will be dropped, that's why we have competition in the squad. Calling for it after 1 game is counter productive, it stifles confidence and creativity, players are afraid to make mistakes and take chances. This season we have seen both return so why take those two things that have been in such short supply over the years?

 

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3 hours ago, London Blue said:

Gomes played poorly yesterday, nobody disagreed with that. But your conclusions based on one poor game are questionable. 

You say he hid, did not show for the ball but as Romey said how could he be poor at passing if he hid for the ball? According to the stats he attempted 78 passes, 2 more than Doucoure and completed the same number. Not the stats of someone who went hiding are they, unless your accusing Doucoure hiding too?

You suggest playing Siggy in his place, yet Siggy has played his best for us recently in a more attacking role higher up the pitch, not taking the ball from defence. Playing players out of position was one of the many reasons we have been so poor over the last couple of years.

Gomes had 1 poor game, if he has a few more he will be dropped, that's why we have competition in the squad. Calling for it after 1 game is counter productive, it stifles confidence and creativity, players are afraid to make mistakes and take chances. This season we have seen both return so why take those two things that have been in such short supply over the years?

 

If it was one game then fair enough.... But it's not.  I'm not going on about his quality on the ball which was poor ......I said he hid and he did.

I didn't say he didn't touch the ball.  He made 27 passes....... Not sure where you got 78 from.... He made one more pass than DCL and 7 less than Doucouré.

Regardless, Ive yet to find a stats site that logs the number of times a midfielder doesn't show to receive the ball from the centre half. 

Gomes hasn't just had one bad game so stop with this nonsense.  He's had games where he is not showing anywhere near as much of himself as he should.  

What's with all the vendetta connotations.... He's got to step up. Simple as that

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4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

I didn't say he didn't touch the ball.  

You said he hid from the ball, made himself unavailable as a passing option, which cant be true as he attempted 78 passes. You can pass the ball without first receiving it and as he didn't make 78 tackles in the game he must therefore of been passed the ball.

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Not sure where you got 78 from

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485226/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Everton-Liverpool

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Gomes hasn't just had one bad game so stop with this nonsense.  He's had games where he is not showing anywhere near as much of himself as he should

This season he has played 4 league games and in my opinion played ok in 3 of them and poorly in 1. Most commentators think our midfield has been a revelation this season, a midfield that includes Gomes. More importantly Carlo is very happy with our midfield so I will agree with them and not you on this. If he has more bad games he can be benched till he gets his form back. That is the way it should work.

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

What's with all the vendetta connotations.... He's got to step up. Simple as that

I never mentioned vendetta, but as you bring it up I'll ask you. Why do you seem to pick on certain players that are by most standards playing well then look for every reason to criticise them? I mean some of your points are valid, but some are just pure fantasy. We are top of the league, playing football we couldn't even dare to hope to achieve under Silva and Allardyce, yet instead of being happy and praising them you home in on certain players like a hyper critical fault exaggerating blood hound. 

I just don't get it, but if that's your thing then so be it. I just think its a pity as it spoils your posts. 

Anyway, don't want this to take over the thread, and as we have both had our say, and are clearly not going to change each others mind I will leave it there. 

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To be fair the media seems to have the same opinion of him. 
 

I don’t get why we’re not allowed to criticise players when they aren’t performing? Every person on this site has criticised players at some point, but if certain characters do.... it seems to be outlawed? 
 

Some feel he hid, others feel he didn’t, but had a bad game.... it’s pretty unanimous that this was far from his best game.  Why does it matter if certain people say it? These personality attacks are getting real boring... seems to be in every thread recently.

Drop it and get back to discussing the player, good or bad!

 

edit: not directed at you LB, your post is just above that’s all haha. Just in general some posters seem to be disliked.

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1 hour ago, London Blue said:

You said he hid from the ball, made himself unavailable as a passing option, which cant be true as he attempted 78 passes. You can pass the ball without first receiving it and as he didn't make 78 tackles in the game he must therefore of been passed the ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1485226/Live/England-Premier-League-2020-2021-Everton-Liverpool

This season he has played 4 league games and in my opinion played ok in 3 of them and poorly in 1. Most commentators think our midfield has been a revelation this season, a midfield that includes Gomes. More importantly Carlo is very happy with our midfield so I will agree with them and not you on this. If he has more bad games he can be benched till he gets his form back. That is the way it should work.

I never mentioned vendetta, but as you bring it up I'll ask you. Why do you seem to pick on certain players that are by most standards playing well then look for every reason to criticise them? I mean some of your points are valid, but some are just pure fantasy. We are top of the league, playing football we couldn't even dare to hope to achieve under Silva and Allardyce, yet instead of being happy and praising them you home in on certain players like a hyper critical fault exaggerating blood hound. 

I just don't get it, but if that's your thing then so be it. I just think its a pity as it spoils your posts. 

Anyway, don't want this to take over the thread, and as we have both had our say, and are clearly not going to change each others mind I will leave it there. 

He didn't pass the ball 78 times ..... Seriously, if you are going to start pulling me based on stats, make sure they aren't exaggerated 3 times over. 

He got on the ball about as much as Dom who was a lone striker .... The player who made the most passes was Keane. ..... Who made twice as many passes as Gomes, mina made around 40......  That's 90 passes out from the back alone.  So you tell me how he only made 27 pass attempts when he is the usual recipient of passes from defence? 

He hid. I don't need stats to prove it, but in rebuttal to yours I know which ones stand up more. 

I'm sure Carlo never hooked him off cos he was happy with him, and I'm sure Carlo like many of us is wondering when Gomes is going to aspire to the levels of Allan (who was immense in second half) and Doucoure who despite not being at his best was still a far better level than Andre. 

For the record I'm as euphoric in my appreciation of players as I am in criticism.  I don't like being short changed and if I think some players aren't doing it then I will say so 

I'm sorry I can't be more accommodating and give out rosette's for popular players who are playing shit but that's the way it is. 

You asked Romey why he doesn't like bolassie earning a hefty wage off us? Or why he doesn't rate Mina?  I'm sure the answer will be non too disimilar to why I get pissed at players who weaken us - shukes makes a valid point I personally couldn't give a shit about likes or dislikes, I make my opinion know and that's it .

We wouldn't be top of the league if we never weeeded out the shite and there is still some work to be done so you will have to try and ignore is saying things like "time to rest coleman'.  It's evolution.... We aren't sending them to the vet to get shot

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1 hour ago, Shukes said:

To be fair the media seems to have the same opinion of him. 
 

I don’t get why we’re not allowed to criticise players when they aren’t performing? Every person on this site has criticised players at some point, but if certain characters do.... it seems to be outlawed? 
 

Some feel he hid, others feel he didn’t, but had a bad game.... it’s pretty unanimous that this was far from his best game.  Why does it matter if certain people say it? These personality attacks are getting real boring... seems to be in every thread recently.

Drop it and get back to discussing the player, good or bad!

 

edit: not directed at you LB, your post is just above that’s all haha. Just in general some posters seem to be disliked.

Not a personality attack Shukes, and I have no problem with anyone calling out a player when they don't play well. I started out by agreeing that Gomes had a bad game. 

I leant a long time ago that 20 people can see the same event and call it 20 different ways. It's human nature. 

My point to Haff was that he seems to be too critical of whatever player has displeased him. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

He didn't pass the ball 78 times ..... Seriously, if you are going to start pulling me based on stats, make sure they aren't exaggerated 3 times over. 

 

Your right I got the numbers wrong but Gomes had 27 passes, Allan 24, and Doucoure 34, which still proves my point as they are all very similar.

42 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

You asked Romey why he doesn't like bolassie earning a hefty wage off us? Or why he doesn't rate Mina? 

Yes I have, sorry, its not all about you Haff.....

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To be fair, we drew with possibly the best team in Europe and certainly the best team in the country. 
Gomes didn’t have his best of games and can be better, but he was no passenger. 
You don’t get a result like that, against a team like them, without 11 players putting a shift in. 
He can and will do better, but I’ve no issue with anyone on that pitch yesterday. 
Take that draw, it’s a fucking horrible derby and we weren’t embarrassed, and move on until we have to play them again. 
 

We are still top of the league. 
 

Top of the league!!

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23 minutes ago, Palfy said:

For periods of the game there was a general lack of movement from the 5 players in front of Allan, which resulted in long balls being played up to DCL, for me there was no hiding from any player just a lack of movement. 

Lack of movement is as good as hiding in my book.   Seen players do that shit for years,  Roy Keane goes mad at players for it, got to be brave.... Always be prepared to get on the ball.  

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I drop him for soton and see what reaction he gives.

I will say though, I don’t think he needs telling that he was having an off game. I’ve never seen him get so irate as when he did to Henderson and it seemed to be more so out of frustration for his own performance.

Can say a lot about him but I won’t question his heart. I believe he is grateful for us and we need to help him rediscover his best because it will make us a seriously much better side. 

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2 hours ago, Btay said:

I drop him for soton and see what reaction he gives.

I will say though, I don’t think he needs telling that he was having an off game. I’ve never seen him get so irate as when he did to Henderson and it seemed to be more so out of frustration for his own performance.

Can say a lot about him but I won’t question his heart. I believe he is grateful for us and we need to help him rediscover his best because it will make us a seriously much better side. 

If a manager drops a player every time one of them has a bad game he will soon lose the respect of all his players.  

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5 hours ago, Palfy said:

If a manager drops a player every time one of them has a bad game he will soon lose the respect of all his players.  

I don’t think he’s been quite there for a few games though. I’m a big Gomes fan. Ancelotti knows him better than me, some need an arm around them and done positive words others need a rocket. Whatever happens I just want to see the Gomes that single handedly ran games.

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28 minutes ago, Btay said:

I don’t think he’s been quite there for a few games though. I’m a big Gomes fan. Ancelotti knows him better than me, some need an arm around them and done positive words others need a rocket. Whatever happens I just want to see the Gomes that single handedly ran games.

Sorry mate I thought you meant just because of the game on Saturday, I do completely get what you’re saying he’s not been the player we all grew to love at the moment. 

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Again, we’ve not lost a single game with him in the team, we’re top of the league, he has been involved in some very good build up play for some of our many goals, he can’t be doing that bad. If he can do better then great, but the alternatives don’t seem that fantastic either. 
 

Also, still top of the league. 

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He should be in the team for soton. Gomes is playing in a role that he is not used too, for us anyway. When he came into the team he was much deeper and his job was to get the ball shield it and keep the play flowing. There’s no reason to imagine he won’t be able to do that, but he’s still figuring out his place in this team and had a poor game against one of the best teams in the world with a top top midfield. He should be  in the team for soton.

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40 minutes ago, StevO said:

Again, we’ve not lost a single game with him in the team, we’re top of the league, he has been involved in some very good build up play for some of our many goals, he can’t be doing that bad. If he can do better then great, but the alternatives don’t seem that fantastic either. 
 

Also, still top of the league. 

i agree, people are getting confused because they expect him last year, HE'S NOT PLAYING THAT POSITION ANYMORE.  he's the top of the midfield three.  Doucoure is now doing what Andre did last year.  Change your expectations folks.

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4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

i agree, people are getting confused because they expect him last year, HE'S NOT PLAYING THAT POSITION ANYMORE.  he's the top of the midfield three.  Doucoure is now doing what Andre did last year.  Change your expectations folks.

Sort of, though I’d say him and Doucoure are playing very similar roles. Gomes in the left and Doucoure on the right. Just with different skill sets. 
I still like that midfield three though, I think they compliment each other very well. 

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Said this when it happened and will continue to until proven otherwise, he made a remarkable recovery from that injury but getting back on the field is different than getting back to who you were. Andre seems a tremendous lad so I'm desperate for him to prove me wrong but I don't think we will ever see him back to his best. Horrendous injury that is a burden physically and mentally for almost everyone who goes through it. 

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27 minutes ago, StevO said:

Sort of, though I’d say him and Doucoure are playing very similar roles. Gomes in the left and Doucoure on the right. Just with different skill sets. 
I still like that midfield three though, I think they compliment each other very well. 

the way i see it, allan is the deepest and doing the most defending, the least in attack.  doucoure does equal parts defense and attacks and has the pace/stamina to be running all over the place.  gomes is doing the least defending and is doing the most in linking the attack and helping transitions to be fast and to be available to link up with the forwards.

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9 hours ago, StevO said:

Again, we’ve not lost a single game with him in the team, we’re top of the league, he has been involved in some very good build up play for some of our many goals, he can’t be doing that bad. If he can do better then great, but the alternatives don’t seem that fantastic either. 
 

Also, still top of the league. 

I see your point and agree somewhat. 
 

Nothing wrong with challenging him and getting that extra 10%. Right now we are winning but if a couple of other players levels drop even slightly then we start to draw and lose more games. 

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3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the way i see it, allan is the deepest and doing the most defending, the least in attack.  doucoure does equal parts defense and attacks and has the pace/stamina to be running all over the place.  gomes is doing the least defending and is doing the most in linking the attack and helping transitions to be fast and to be available to link up with the forwards.

I don’t disagree, but he’s not playing any further forward than Doucoure. They have both done their fair share of attacking, he just isn’t as good defensively as Doucoure. But one plays to Allans right and one to his left. 

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3 hours ago, Shukes said:

I highly doubt Carlo will be sitting back thinking we are winning, so everything is ok.

I would be willing to bet that he is asking for more from certain players. Just like fans on forums are. 

I hope he’s asking for more from all of the players. 

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