markjazzbassist Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 31 minutes ago, Hafnia said: Strolling around, ball watching, not winning your battles most certainly isn't. The fact of the matter is that if you don't have the quality to retain the ball as much as your opponents, you need to outwork them is an absolute minimum. That's how we got our last two results. The two best teams in the league work as hard off the ball as anyone. i just don't buy it. the top 2 teams in the league have the most technically gifted players in the league. hard work only gets you so far (see spurs or burnley or bournemouth). do i think you need both? definately. but the whole "blood and thunder will win the day" is complete BS, you need skilled players, and we should be getting the best not yard dogs who run marathons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StevO Posted December 18, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: i just don't buy it. the top 2 teams in the league have the most technically gifted players in the league. hard work only gets you so far (see spurs or burnley or bournemouth). do i think you need both? definately. but the whole "blood and thunder will win the day" is complete BS, you need skilled players, and we should be getting the best not yard dogs who run marathons. The players might not have the ability of some of the best players in the league, but what they must match them on is hard work. Anyone who has ever been at Goodison when more talented teams have come up against an Everton side willing to outwork them will understand how much the atmosphere changes. We like talented players, but we always love a player willing to flog themselves for the shirt. Until we have the best players in the league we must outwork everyone. MikeO, Shukes, Romey 1878 and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hafnia Posted December 18, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 17 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: i just don't buy it. the top 2 teams in the league have the most technically gifted players in the league. hard work only gets you so far (see spurs or burnley or bournemouth). do i think you need both? definately. but the whole "blood and thunder will win the day" is complete BS, you need skilled players, and we should be getting the best not yard dogs who run marathons. No one is saying that you don't need skilled players.... The reality is this.... get the best 11 players in the world playing at 80% vs a team of average joes playing at 100% and you will see them mentally crumble. Why is it too much to expect a team of players regardless of their talent to put in a shift??? Everyone who played with Roy Keane said he was particularly great because he got an extra 10% out of every player.... which effectively meant that it felt like the team had one extra man. He knew when one player wasn't doing it and he addressed it..... it prevented anyone else thinking they could do the same. Talent means nothing without work or application. StevO, Newty82, MikeO and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, StevO said: The players might not have the ability of some of the best players in the league, but what they must match them on is hard work. Anyone who has ever been at Goodison when more talented teams have come up against an Everton side willing to outwork them will understand how much the atmosphere changes. We like talented players, but we always love a player willing to flog themselves for the shirt. Until we have the best players in the league we must outwork everyone. i don't disagree, but i don't think having that mentality is the mentality of a winner. that's the mentality of a mid table club punching above their weight. 4 minutes ago, Hafnia said: No one is saying that you don't need skilled players.... The reality is this.... get the best 11 players in the world playing at 80% vs a team of average joes playing at 100% and you will see them mentally crumble. Why is it too much to expect a team of players regardless of their talent to put in a shift??? Everyone who played with Roy Keane said he was particularly great because he got an extra 10% out of every player.... which effectively meant that it felt like the team had one extra man. He knew when one player wasn't doing it and he addressed it..... it prevented anyone else thinking they could do the same. Talent means nothing without work or application. i am very surprised to see this from you of all people Haf. this sounds very knives to a gun fight david moyes, which i know you were not a fan of. we should not aim to be mid table punch above our weight out work you. we should aim to be better than you and outwork you. that's what the old timers say about those 80s teams. we would go down a goal and no one feared because we had the better players and the fans knew those players were going to work and win it and they often did (not on work alone, we had some amazingly skilled players). i don't want the players who work hard but are missing sitters and sideways passes and schoolboy defender error average joes, i want the best. farhad does too, let's see if he can come good on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 7 hours ago, Hafnia said: New manager bounce mate, he definitely showed that these snake oil salesmen like allardyce basically just come in and do 2 banks of 4, get rid and get it up as quick as poss. Dunc just did it with more gusto, passion and humility. It was a great audition for him. I would look to suggest that unsworth should be advised to cut his teeth managing a championship, league one team and give Dunc the Under 21s. But I see your point, its been great to see a passionate manager go about It the Everton way. Your probably right mate, but seeing the team play with passion and the supporters being lifted, is a great feeling that I don’t want to end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said: simply running around isn't blood and guts and passion for the shirt. You've completely contradicted yourself here. The best two teams in the league, who you rightly point out have incredibly gifted players from a technical stand point, are what they are precisely because their players don't 'simply run around'. They play with calculated aggression and a burning desire to beat whoever is put in front of them. That's what guts and passion mean, that's what defines winners, that is what managers like Pep and Klopp demand no matter how gifted a player is, and why someone like Ozil is playing for Arsenal, not Man City or Liverpool. Passion and commitment can and does beat talent when talent isn't up for the fight. That's usually the key thing that separates successful pros from the child protégés who never quite make it. Desire is everything, especially at the top. Bailey, Romey 1878, StevO and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, nogs said: You've completely contradicted yourself here. The best two teams in the league, who you rightly point out have incredibly gifted players from a technical stand point, are what they are precisely because their players don't 'simply run around'. They play with calculated aggression and a burning desire to beat whoever is put in front of them. That's what guts and passion mean, that's what defines winners, that is what managers like Pep and Klopp demand no matter how gifted a player is, and why someone like Ozil is playing for Arsenal, not Man City or Liverpool. Passion and commitment can and does beat talent when talent isn't up for the fight. That's usually the key thing that separates successful pros from the child protégés who never quite make it. Desire is everything, especially at the top. Exactly this that’s why I said Dunc would make a good assistant to Ancelotti, he could install the fire and fight required on top of the tactics of Ancelotti, as others have pointed out Liverpool are a team that when they lose the ball they fight and give everything to win it back, the same as City do, these teams aren’t just great because of what they do when they have the ball, it’s just as much about what you do without the ball, Silva couldn’t get the team to work hard to win the ball back for him and teams just walked through us because we lacked fight, and Ferguson had no control under any previous manager to help set out how the team should play, even if Mark says differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 https://twitter.com/skysportsnews/status/1207355017746735104 markjazzbassist and chicagoblue 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 31 minutes ago, nogs said: The best two teams in the league, who you rightly point out have incredibly gifted players from a technical stand point, are what they are precisely because their players don't 'simply run around'. correct, they are who they are because they are technically gifted. you can't teach that. anyone can be taught to work hard and press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 55 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: i don't disagree, but i don't think having that mentality is the mentality of a winner. that's the mentality of a mid table club punching above their weight. i am very surprised to see this from you of all people Haf. this sounds very knives to a gun fight david moyes, which i know you were not a fan of. we should not aim to be mid table punch above our weight out work you. we should aim to be better than you and outwork you. that's what the old timers say about those 80s teams. we would go down a goal and no one feared because we had the better players and the fans knew those players were going to work and win it and they often did (not on work alone, we had some amazingly skilled players). i don't want the players who work hard but are missing sitters and sideways passes and schoolboy defender error average joes, i want the best. farhad does too, let's see if he can come good on it. It's not penknives to gunfights I'm talking about .... it's guns to gunfights with soldiers who fire more bullets and aim better. My point is that 100% effort is required regardless of the calibre of players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bailey Posted December 18, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: correct, they are who they are because they are technically gifted. you can't teach that. anyone can be taught to work hard and press. I disagree. If it was that easy why would loads of talented player fall by the wayside. Look at Kean at the weekend. Yep taught to work hard and press but it's misguided and that split second he stops concentrating Shaw is on his bike 20 yards down field. The biggest example in our squad is probably DCL though. A very limited striker, but he not only works hard every game but he has clearly worked really hard on his game behind closed doors. He isn't technically gifted at all. Cenk is far better, Kean too but DCL plays and bullies world class defenders because of his attitude. pete0, StevO, Shukes and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: correct, they are who they are because they are technically gifted. you can't teach that. anyone can be taught to work hard and press. I think you have my wires crossed, I am saying that regardless of the players abilities - effort is a prerequisite. "IF" Lukaku had it in his belly to play like DCL has done, pressing, fighting, running how much better would he have been? If Schneiderlein could have the desire to win a ball like Gana more often, how much would we look better ? Newty82 and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 15 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: correct, they are who they are because they are technically gifted. you can't teach that. anyone can be taught to work hard and press. Nope. It's not enough to be technically gifted. Not by a long shot. Klopp and Pep are not just successful because they buy the most talented players. They single out the most driven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoblue Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 Back to the topic of this thread.... As per dunc's link above, Ancelotti reportedly will be in the stands not tonight, but for Arsenal at the weekend. One more game then for Big Dunc. Going to be interesting times for us. Newty82 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, nogs said: Nope. It's not enough to be technically gifted. Not by a long shot. Klopp and Pep are not just successful because they buy the most talented players. They single out the most driven. People often wonder why Klopps players never hit the ground running? It's cos he has to get them for to play for him..... we all laughed and said they couldn't sustain their work rate .... they did and do. Fittest team I've ever seen. StevO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, nogs said: Nope. It's not enough to be technically gifted. Not by a long shot. Klopp and Pep are not just successful because they buy the most talented players. They single out the most driven. The clearest example of that is that both Milner and Henderson have played a big part in his success at Liverpool. Average footballers with a great attitude. Matt and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Palfy Posted December 18, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, nogs said: Nope. It's not enough to be technically gifted. Not by a long shot. Klopp and Pep are not just successful because they buy the most talented players. They single out the most driven. Leicester didn’t win the PL because they were the most technically gifted team in the league, they out worked there opponents. Zoo 2.0, Hafnia, StevO and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 and yet man city in the bottom half of ground covered during a match. no one in the top 7 in the first 4 teams. City don't "run through walls" to win the game, in fact they do the opposite. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-running-stats-reveal-14184242 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: and yet man city in the bottom half of ground covered during a match. no one in the top 7 in the first 4 teams. City don't "run through walls" to win the game, in fact they do the opposite. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-running-stats-reveal-14184242 I think you're completely missing what the guys are trying to say to you. It's not about total distance run. MikeO, Bailey, StevO and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUnderToff Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: and yet man city in the bottom half of ground covered during a match. no one in the top 7 in the first 4 teams. City don't "run through walls" to win the game, in fact they do the opposite. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-running-stats-reveal-14184242 At a guess I'd say that follows possession stats. They've got the ball more and are pushing it around, forcing other teams to run. Doesn't mean they don't work hard when they don't have it, just that they need to do it less. Bailey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 24 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: and yet man city in the bottom half of ground covered during a match. no one in the top 7 in the first 4 teams. City don't "run through walls" to win the game, in fact they do the opposite. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-running-stats-reveal-14184242 Distance run does not equal hard work on its own... A player who closes an opponent down immediately will cover the same distance as someone who closes their opponent down slowly.... the resulting difference is that the quicker close will restrict their pass accuracy and heighten the chance to win the ball back. Teams that lose the ball more frequently will end up running further. Bailey and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badaids Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Palfy said: Leicester didn’t win the PL because they were the most technically gifted team in the league, they out worked there opponents. Yep. They did the basics well, everyone knew their role, the plan and they played to it, they worked as a unit with and without the ball. They also played for each other. See also Greece in Euro 2004. Basically, we have none of that at Everton at the moment and haven't since Bobby season 1. StevO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoblue Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, badaids said: Yep. They did the basics well, everyone knew their role, the plan and they played to it, they worked as a unit with and without the ball. They also played for each other. See also Greece in Euro 2004. Basically, we have none of that at Everton at the moment and haven't since Bobby season 1. It's there. Silva had sent it to the corner with a dunce cap on, but Dunc has brought it back. Can't say the lads weren't fighting for each other out there today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 57 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: and yet man city in the bottom half of ground covered during a match. no one in the top 7 in the first 4 teams. City don't "run through walls" to win the game, in fact they do the opposite. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-running-stats-reveal-14184242 You don't have to run as far when you never let the opposition have the ball! And that is as much about winning it back as quickly as you lose it as it is about neat technical passing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted December 19, 2019 Report Share Posted December 19, 2019 7 hours ago, Hafnia said: If Schneiderlein could have the desire to win a ball like Gana more often, how much would we look better ? Didn't both quoting the Lukaku bit. Every other post you've made is about him. It's embarrassing and boring. Gana didn't have the desire. Look at McCarthy winning the ball compared to him. Gana was a yappy dog with no bite. Left huge gaps that gave away clear chances game after game and offered fuck all going forward if anything was a hinderance both defensively (left gaps) and attacking-wise (slowed the play, couldn't see a pass nevermind weigh it). Absolutely bored of morons going on about the useless leech. We've conceded far less chances through the middle with out and far more solid and creative through the middle. Imagine him playing today instead of Davies who, it'd been an absolute shambles. Only thing he had over Davies is speed. Sibdane, StevO, Newty82 and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted December 19, 2019 Report Share Posted December 19, 2019 5 hours ago, pete0 said: Didn't both quoting the Lukaku bit. Every other post you've made is about him. It's embarrassing and boring. Gana didn't have the desire. Look at McCarthy winning the ball compared to him. Gana was a yappy dog with no bite. Left huge gaps that gave away clear chances game after game and offered fuck all going forward if anything was a hinderance both defensively (left gaps) and attacking-wise (slowed the play, couldn't see a pass nevermind weigh it). Absolutely bored of morons going on about the useless leech. We've conceded far less chances through the middle with out and far more solid and creative through the middle. Imagine him playing today instead of Davies who, it'd been an absolute shambles. Only thing he had over Davies is speed. Every other post is about... Oh hang on Newty82 and Shukes 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted December 19, 2019 Report Share Posted December 19, 2019 21 minutes ago, nogs said: Every other post is about... Oh hang on Not worth it mate. I think k he’s had a few to many last night haha Newty82 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted December 19, 2019 Report Share Posted December 19, 2019 6 hours ago, pete0 said: Didn't both quoting the Lukaku bit. Every other post you've made is about him. It's embarrassing and boring. Gana didn't have the desire. Look at McCarthy winning the ball compared to him. Gana was a yappy dog with no bite. Left huge gaps that gave away clear chances game after game and offered fuck all going forward if anything was a hinderance both defensively (left gaps) and attacking-wise (slowed the play, couldn't see a pass nevermind weigh it). Absolutely bored of morons going on about the useless leech. We've conceded far less chances through the middle with out and far more solid and creative through the middle. Imagine him playing today instead of Davies who, it'd been an absolute shambles. Only thing he had over Davies is speed. Here we go old rivalries never end even if given time. But to fair you are exaggerating Pete Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted December 19, 2019 Report Share Posted December 19, 2019 It's bizarre reading Sky, and Alan Myers, reporting on Ancelotti becoming our new manager when for weeks they've drilled it into us for what seems like forever that Moyes is our best option and we should get on our knees and be thankful for it too. Worked as well, because they actually had some of our fans on board with that shite and wanting it. Newty82, markjazzbassist and StevO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 19, 2019 Report Share Posted December 19, 2019 33 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said: It's bizarre reading Sky, and Alan Myers, reporting on Ancelotti becoming our new manager when for weeks they've drilled it into us for what seems like forever that Moyes is our best option and we should get on our knees and be thankful for it too. Worked as well, because they actually had some of our fans on board with that shite and wanting it. Bet SkyBet stands to make a few pennies from this all too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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