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not sure why @Cornish Steve is quoting people recognising James skills when he as showed then, nobody doubts his talent.

Everybody is allowed to enjoy and comment on a players skill, just as they are allowed to comment of negative aspects. We all do it all the time - - everybody waxed lyrical about Townsends goal against Burnley we ALL enjoyed it and appreciated the skill and commented upon it - in a couple of months time he might get a slating if he is out of form and his shooting is all over the place. 

Think its sad going back over 12 months in threads and picking out everybody's 'positive', but chose to ignore all negative one. What is the point? 

 

 

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I look at it this way, disregarding the Goalie if you had ten Rodriguez against ten Doucoure,  who do you think would win. James is a half decent player with the ball at his feet, but that's all there is to his game. Team Doucoure would win every time for me.

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1 hour ago, Bill said:

I look at it this way, disregarding the Goalie if you had ten Rodriguez against ten Doucoure,  who do you think would win. James is a half decent player with the ball at his feet, but that's all there is to his game. Team Doucoure would win every time for me.

But that’s just never going to happen. 
Like picking a team of strikers to play a team of defenders. Just not even a point.  😂

There is a reason a team is made up of players with different skills and abilities, it’s what makes the game. 

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1 hour ago, Bill said:

I look at it this way, disregarding the Goalie if you had ten Rodriguez against ten Doucoure,  who do you think would win. James is a half decent player with the ball at his feet, but that's all there is to his game. Team Doucoure would win every time for me.

That's a bit of a strange argument really. They're totally different players - it's a bit like saying who would win in a team of Richarlison's against a team of Mina's, they're totally different ends of the pitch?

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I'd agree  the comparison is worthless.

A team of 10 Alan Shearer's or Gary Lineker's for example would probably lose to a team of Doucoure's but they are players who played a particular position and were very good at it.

If you could create such a game then someone like Doucoure would have course be a great player to choose as he can work all over the pitch, tackle, pass and score goals though he is unlikely the best any any one of those things.

--

I see I was quoted twice!

He is a quality player, has a lot of ability but disregarding whatever has gone on between him and Rafa I don't feel his heart has really been in it a lot of the time and his desire to play and succeed is pretty low.  Sadly the World Cup in 2014 was his pinnacle that he's never quite lived up to wherever he's been and his move to Qatar makes it even less likely that he'll play at the next World Cup (though at least his in the right country to go and watch!!).

--

I can't be bothered with the never ending James debate anymore, especially now that he's gone but if I could have a team of players who want to wear the shirt, perform for the club and fans and work hard to give it their best every game versus a team of super starts that can only be bothered when they feel like it i'd go with the former.

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2 hours ago, MikeO said:

You could always go through it and quote the negative ones for balance:otvwhistle:

but why though? people know what they have said in the past and how their opinions change and develop as you get to know a person - so not interested in playing the 'but you once said' game.

I am open to debate and open to having my mind changed. 

In the end James boiled down to a simple question -Had James commitment to Everton football club evaporate since the turn of the year?

Plenty think that it had , and we don't really want players who are not committed around the place, no matter their skill set.

It will all come out in the goodness of time. 

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Anyway ...... Alan myers has spoken.... And before anyone doubts him he is as blue as they come and is privvy to far more info than most. 

Rodriguez wanted out before Ancellotti left (probably makes sense given his performances and desire not to play).

Rafa was told James wanted to leave and wasn't gonna try and pursuade him otherwise. 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/15134/12414532/james-rodriguez-leaves-everton-for-al-rayyan-the-story-behind-the-colombians-disappointing-spell-on-merseyside

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6 hours ago, Hafnia said:

He is possibly the most talented player I've seen in an Everton shirt....... What's your point????  You keep quoting all the great remarks made about him (when he was arsed)

We were under the belief that James, Allan, Doucore was just the start and Koulibaily etc was following.

The situation is:-. His mentor manager decided to walk, James showed he wasn't arsed about the club by pissing off before the season ended and asking to be subbed then saying he was too tired to play.   We have financial problems and his second year could have triggered a 3rd year that we couldnt afford.

 

No one is saying he was a poor player.... He is a very good player.

File him along the likes of adebuyor, Eto, Drinkwater, asamoah gyan, Sanchez

The point is that so many opinions are swayed by the current consensus. If you look again at messages posted around March, someone mentioned that a few members wanted James gone. Matt responded with disbelief and specifically asked who wants him gone? The answer at the time was "no-one". Looking at today's messages, though, you'd think everyone wanted him gone by December last year - but that's simply not true.

So what happened? First, James needs a manager who encourages and inspires him. By January or February, Ancelotti had clearly lost interest in managing Everton, and that had the biggest impact on James. Second, James was injured, and we've had these discussions before: Some on these forums get frustrated and write players off for getting injured, but the truth is that it's a fact of life and not a player's fault. By the time James was ready to return, the managerial attitude was quite different - now one of apathy. Then Ancelotti was replaced by someone who has never gotten along with James, so dejection clearly kicked in. As a result, we are where we are.

Things would be very different if our managers had behaved differently. They would probably be different if James was being cheered each week by passionate supporters. They would definitely be different if James had not suffered niggling injuries. What's frustrating to me, though, is how fans can so quickly and easily rewrite history and be carried by the latest current of opinion. If someone isn't beating expectations all the time - whether through their own fault or otherwise - they're written off. It's such a shame.

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9 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

The point is that so many opinions are swayed by the current consensus. If you look again at messages posted around March, someone mentioned that a few members wanted James gone. Matt responded with disbelief and specifically asked who wants him gone? The answer at the time was "no-one". Looking at today's messages, though, you'd think everyone wanted him gone by December last year - but that's simply not true.

So what happened? First, James needs a manager who encourages and inspires him. By January or February, Ancelotti had clearly lost interest in managing Everton, and that had the biggest impact on James. Second, James was injured, and we've had these discussions before: Some on these forums get frustrated and write players off for getting injured, but the truth is that it's a fact of life and not a player's fault. By the time James was ready to return, the managerial attitude was quite different - now one of apathy. Then Ancelotti was replaced by someone who has never gotten along with James, so dejection clearly kicked in. As a result, we are where we are.

Things would be very different if our managers had behaved differently. They would probably be different if James was being cheered each week by passionate supporters. They would definitely be different if James had not suffered niggling injuries. What's frustrating to me, though, is how fans can so quickly and easily rewrite history and be carried by the latest current of opinion. If someone isn't beating expectations all the time - whether through their own fault or otherwise - they're written off. It's such a shame.

Read my last post.

Everything that you are eluding to is answered here ....

Wanted out before Ancellotti left..... No shit Sherlock, shite half efforts, tiredness and fucking off before season ended.  Can't even blame Ancellotti eh,but I'm pretty sure it's why Carlo wasn't arsed about him jumping on a jet and also why he never picked him up for real Madrid. 

I'm pretty sure if we were told the timeline as to when he said he wanted out you would be able to match his "not arsed" games. 

 

The facts...... And they are facts if myers says so...... He wanted out before Rafa came, he wanted out before Carlo left.

If you think players like that need cosy chats to convince them to stay then Rafa isn't your man and I'm glad he is our manager.  

Hes gone, he wanted out, it wasn't Rafa, he would have been an expensive not arsed member of the squad.  End of story. 

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31 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Anyway ...... Alan myers has spoken.... And before anyone doubts him he is as blue as they come and is privvy to far more info than most. 

Rodriguez wanted out before Ancellotti left (probably makes sense given his performances and desire not to play).

Rafa was told James wanted to leave and wasn't gonna try and pursuade him otherwise. 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/15134/12414532/james-rodriguez-leaves-everton-for-al-rayyan-the-story-behind-the-colombians-disappointing-spell-on-merseyside

If true, and I suspect it probably is coming from Myers, then it explains a lot.

In his head he was off a long time ago.

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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

If true, and I suspect it probably is coming from Myers, then it explains a lot.

In his head he was off a long time ago.

Got fans on twitter etc doubting Myers credentials which is laughable. The man is as honest as the day is long. He has kept the lid on lots of things in his time, didn't he walk from the club in 2014 and it was under a cloud. Rumours were he was unhappy with the running of the place. 

 

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned his word is as close to the fact as we will likely get. Benitez, James etc have been very quiet on it. 

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1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

The point is that so many opinions are swayed by the current consensus. If you look again at messages posted around March, someone mentioned that a few members wanted James gone. Matt responded with disbelief and specifically asked who wants him gone? The answer at the time was "no-one". Looking at today's messages, though, you'd think everyone wanted him gone by December last year - but that's simply not true.

So what happened? First, James needs a manager who encourages and inspires him. By January or February, Ancelotti had clearly lost interest in managing Everton, and that had the biggest impact on James. Second, James was injured, and we've had these discussions before: Some on these forums get frustrated and write players off for getting injured, but the truth is that it's a fact of life and not a player's fault. By the time James was ready to return, the managerial attitude was quite different - now one of apathy. Then Ancelotti was replaced by someone who has never gotten along with James, so dejection clearly kicked in. As a result, we are where we are.

Things would be very different if our managers had behaved differently. They would probably be different if James was being cheered each week by passionate supporters. They would definitely be different if James had not suffered niggling injuries. What's frustrating to me, though, is how fans can so quickly and easily rewrite history and be carried by the latest current of opinion. If someone isn't beating expectations all the time - whether through their own fault or otherwise - they're written off. It's such a shame.

I was fully behind him in march too ........ I was fully behind putting my foot through his arse not long after.  

Very easy to see why.  

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If fans of our club think that we should pander and plead to a player who doesn't want to play for us then you need to wake up 

We are Everton Football Club, we were here over 100 years before James was born and we will be playing in a brand new water front stadium when he is picking up his final bloated paychecks for doing the bare minimum. 

Nice footballer and all that when he fancies it. Yeah yeah yeah. 

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perspective - It will take some of us close to a  lifetime to earn what our football club have been paying him every single month. I have a minimum expectation of players in these privileged positions and that is to give the best effort you can each and every month. 

The fact he is capable of great footballer just makes it a whole lot worst.

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17 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Honestly, I thought 25 quotes would be enough, but you appear to have drawn a wrong conclusion from that. Let's continue...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you trying to prove here Steve?

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54 minutes ago, Palfy said:

What you trying to prove here Steve?

  1. That James excited almost everyone initially - really excited them
  2. That almost without exception this remained the case through at least March/April
  3. That the situation changed once he was no longer playing (through injury) - (same happened with McCarthy)
  4. That history is rewritten on a dime when a player/manager leaves (suddenly they become villains in hero clothing)
  5. That we expect players to be gung-ho Everton fans, no matter what the cost - (never will be the case with some)
  6. That, in reality, some players need careful coaching (to be enthused, to build confidence, to know they're wanted)
  7. That we expect even world-class players to fit our mode of thinking (attack, defend, run 'til you drop)
  8. That the manager's job is to build a coherent team from a complex collection of personalities with varied needs
  9. That to become a top-notch team, we have to change our thinking and accept that top players are different

It really saddens me how quickly a hero can become a villain simply because they don't conform with our view of what they should be. (It's as if we completely forget what we thought initially when we spot they're different.) Top players are different, and it takes a top-class manager to get the most from them. This whole episode proves to me that we're not thinking like a top club: We're thinking like an also-ran, so an also-ran we'll remain for now. We'd rather have a team of loyal plodders than one built on the type of players needed to break into the top tier of English/European football. Our current manager is happy to manage plodders, so we're going to finish in the bottom half of the table this season.

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In simple terms, it’s lunacy for a team not (nor have been for a number of years) in European competition and benefitting from the extra millions this brings, to have such expensive assets (not just James) with little to no resale - in a time where expenditure is regulated through FFP. James is an unbelievable player and, when on the pitch, he was our best player - I’d happily pay to watch him play every week but also understand that, because of years of poor management and underachieving in the transfer market, we need to make/save money to progress. Our squad is awful and in dire need of investment - we won’t sign anyone as good as James but if we can sign 3/4 young hungry players who make our squad better then that’s what needs to happen - we probably need to sell Richarlison or Digne next summer - I don’t want either to go but it’s probably what we need long term.

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20 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:
  1. That James excited almost everyone initially - really excited them
  2. That almost without exception this remained the case through at least March/April
  3. That the situation changed once he was no longer playing (through injury) - (same happened with McCarthy)
  4. That history is rewritten on a dime when a player/manager leaves (suddenly they become villains in hero clothing)
  5. That we expect players to be gung-ho Everton fans, no matter what the cost - (never will be the case with some)
  6. That, in reality, some players need careful coaching (to be enthused, to build confidence, to know they're wanted)
  7. That we expect even world-class players to fit our mode of thinking (attack, defend, run 'til you drop)
  8. That the manager's job is to build a coherent team from a complex collection of personalities with varied needs
  9. That to become a top-notch team, we have to change our thinking and accept that top players are different

It really saddens me how quickly a hero can become a villain simply because they don't conform with our view of what they should be. (It's as if we completely forget what we thought initially when we spot they're different.) Top players are different, and it takes a top-class manager to get the most from them. This whole episode proves to me that we're not thinking like a top club: We're thinking like an also-ran, so an also-ran we'll remain for now. We'd rather have a team of loyal plodders than one built on the type of players needed to break into the top tier of English/European football. Our current manager is happy to manage plodders, so we're going to finish in the bottom half of the table this season.

Not with me mate you need to look a bit closer I was more than happy with him in September 2020 before the end of October 2020 I was having my doubts, I’m no fool mate I’m not completely taken in by someone who shines in his 1st 5 league games then does very little in the next 19. It’s becoming more clear that he wanted to leave even before Ancelotti left, and if we do finish in the bottom half of the league how do you attribute that to Benitez, he’s just got here this isn’t his mess and Rodríguez was most definitely not going to change it. For me he was never a hero and he isn’t a villain, he came here started well and finished poorly wanted to leave and got his wish, I’d rather he was prepared to take a wage cut and went to Porto before transfer window closed, to give us a chance of getting someone in who wanted to be here. If you’re such a James fan and pissed with Everton then you know where he’s gone so enjoy your time watching the Qatari league I’m sure you’ll be much happier.  

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28 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Not with me mate you need to look a bit closer I was more than happy with him in September 2020 before the end of October 2020 I was having my doubts, I’m no fool mate I’m not completely taken in by someone who shines in his 1st 5 league games then does very little in the next 19. It’s becoming more clear that he wanted to leave even before Ancelotti left, and if we do finish in the bottom half of the league how do you attribute that to Benitez, he’s just got here this isn’t his mess and Rodríguez was most definitely not going to change it. For me he was never a hero and he isn’t a villain, he came here started well and finished poorly wanted to leave and got his wish, I’d rather he was prepared to take a wage cut and went to Porto before transfer window closed, to give us a chance of getting someone in who wanted to be here. If you’re such a James fan and pissed with Everton then you know where he’s gone so enjoy your time watching the Qatari league I’m sure you’ll be much happier.  

I'm more concerned about what this episode says about (i) our thinking, and (ii) our situation.

On the first point, as I mentioned, I don't see us thinking like a top club at all. Where's the vision? David Moyes, for all his faults, had a vision and a strategy. His goal was to finish fourth or fifth on a shoe-string budget. Roberto Martinez, for all his faults, had a vision and a strategy. He finished fourth and we progressed in Europe with an exciting style of play - but we didn't have the funding to sustain this so he gambled on Russian-league players and failed. Managers since then have, quite frankly, had no vision. Koeman had no vision. Silva had no vision. Crooked Sam had no vision other than to not be relegated. I thought Ancelotti had a vision and James was part of it, but it seems not. What's Benitez' vision for the club? We'll have a shiny new stadium, but what's the plan to succeed?

On the second point, how come we're in such dire financial straits? Did anyone know this before the most recent window? I didn't - but maybe I was simply naive. It seems we're biding our time to offload expensive mistakes, and our only thought on James is to unload his wage bill. Remember when everyone commented on how much marketing revenue he would bring in? But Ancelotti gave up so James gave up - terrible management of a player who needs strong and visionary leadership.

So what does this say of this season's Everton? We've been lucky so far with Gray and Townsend - that gamble may have paid off. We've yet to play any decent team, though. Yes, I'm very disappointed, and I see the whole James debacle as symptomatic of this new malaise and lack of positive vision. Our strategy appears to be to simply survive until we can offload most of the current squad and start over again. In the meantime, we're likely to lose Richarlison and DC-L. Who wants to play for a team with no real aspirations? 

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12 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I'm more concerned about what this episode says about (i) our thinking, and (ii) our situation.

On the first point, as I mentioned, I don't see us thinking like a top club at all. Where's the vision? David Moyes, for all his faults, had a vision and a strategy. His goal was to finish fourth or fifth on a shoe-string budget. Roberto Martinez, for all his faults, had a vision and a strategy. He finished fourth and we progressed in Europe with an exciting style of play - but we didn't have the funding to sustain this so he gambled on Russian-league players and failed. Managers since then have, quite frankly, had no vision. Koeman had no vision. Silva had no vision. Crooked Sam had no vision other than to not be relegated. I thought Ancelotti had a vision and James was part of it, but it seems not. What's Benitez' vision for the club? We'll have a shiny new stadium, but what's the plan to succeed?

On the second point, how come we're in such dire financial straits? Did anyone know this before the most recent window? I didn't - but maybe I was simply naive. It seems we're biding our time to offload expensive mistakes, and our only thought on James is to unload his wage bill. Remember when everyone commented on how much marketing revenue he would bring in? But Ancelotti gave up so James gave up - terrible management of a player who needs strong and visionary leadership.

So what does this say of this season's Everton? We've been lucky so far with Gray and Townsend - that gamble may have paid off. We've yet to play any decent team, though. Yes, I'm very disappointed, and I see the whole James debacle as symptomatic of this new malaise and lack of positive vision. Our strategy appears to be to simply survive until we can offload most of the current squad and start over again. In the meantime, we're likely to lose Richarlison and DC-L. Who wants to play for a team with no real aspirations? 

It seems Benetiz wants to play with dynamic, hard working athletic players. Which is okay and I think our fans will get right behind a hard working and combative team.

The problem is we have been somewhat of a retirement home for “decent” players to pick up one last lucrative contract.

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14 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:
  1. That James excited almost everyone initially - really excited them
  2. That almost without exception this remained the case through at least March/April
  3. That the situation changed once he was no longer playing (through injury) - (same happened with McCarthy)
  4. That history is rewritten on a dime when a player/manager leaves (suddenly they become villains in hero clothing)
  5. That we expect players to be gung-ho Everton fans, no matter what the cost - (never will be the case with some)
  6. That, in reality, some players need careful coaching (to be enthused, to build confidence, to know they're wanted)
  7. That we expect even world-class players to fit our mode of thinking (attack, defend, run 'til you drop)
  8. That the manager's job is to build a coherent team from a complex collection of personalities with varied needs
  9. That to become a top-notch team, we have to change our thinking and accept that top players are different

It really saddens me how quickly a hero can become a villain simply because they don't conform with our view of what they should be. (It's as if we completely forget what we thought initially when we spot they're different.) Top players are different, and it takes a top-class manager to get the most from them. This whole episode proves to me that we're not thinking like a top club: We're thinking like an also-ran, so an also-ran we'll remain for now. We'd rather have a team of loyal plodders than one built on the type of players needed to break into the top tier of English/European football. Our current manager is happy to manage plodders, so we're going to finish in the bottom half of the table this season.

I think point 7 is a nonsense. Most, if not all, top managers expect their players to attack and defend and run till they drop. Did you see Guardiola berating Grealish and Mahrez for not covering against Leipzig? Where's the evidence that Benitez wants a team of plodders? Absolutely none.

I think point 9 is a nonsense, too. Top players may be different in terms of technical ability but they need to be integrated into the team. You hint at that in point 8. If a manager doesn't think a player fits into the team, then that player is expendable. I trust Benitez on that. The fact that no big club took James off our hands suggests he had nothing to offer them, either.

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38 minutes ago, Formby said:

I think point 7 is a nonsense. Most, if not all, top managers expect their players to attack and defend and run till they drop. Did you see Guardiola berating Grealish and Mahrez for not covering against Leipzig? Where's the evidence that Benitez wants a team of plodders? Absolutely none.

I think point 9 is a nonsense, too. Top players may be different in terms of technical ability but they need to be integrated into the team. You hint at that in point 8. If a manager doesn't think a player fits into the team, then that player is expendable. I trust Benitez on that. The fact that no big club took James off our hands suggests he had nothing to offer them, either.

The biggest issue the club has had over the past years is overpaid, lazy, uncommitted players.

I fully agree with rafas approach.  We need committed, professional players and a fully unified, strong dressing room.  No space for passengers. 

 

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I like James as much as the next guy, but it was becoming increasingly obvious that he didn't want to be here. He showed flashes of his talent, and I'm thankful for that. He's given me some great memories. 

I don't buy into the villain/hero convo, or that he's been pushed out(at least not maliciously). This was the right move by us financially and for the style that our new manager wants to play. Don't bother coming at me with "but a good manager should know how to include him." I think he's a good player and Rafa is a good manager; they don't have to work together for both to be true. 

Hope he enjoys Qatar. He'll become a nice trivia question.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Formby said:

I think point 7 is a nonsense. Most, if not all, top managers expect their players to attack and defend and run till they drop. Did you see Guardiola berating Grealish and Mahrez for not covering against Leipzig? Where's the evidence that Benitez wants a team of plodders? Absolutely none.

I think point 9 is a nonsense, too. Top players may be different in terms of technical ability but they need to be integrated into the team. You hint at that in point 8. If a manager doesn't think a player fits into the team, then that player is expendable. I trust Benitez on that. The fact that no big club took James off our hands suggests he had nothing to offer them, either.

Great post, the perception by some that if you didn’t want James in your team you lack ambition is ridiculous, personally I was tired of watching us play with 10 men and hoping 11th might do something now and then, and as the weeks went on that got less and less likely. It would seem that 99.9% of clubs in Europe could see that and weren’t interested, shame more on here can’t see he wasn’t a force anymore that had deserted him years ago. Or the other excuse why he should be here even though he’s weak on the pitch is he’s great for marketing, oh fuck off another ridiculous statement. 

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17 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Since the inception of TT, I doubt there's been a player who only played one season for us who has a thread that's 30+ pages long. 

He's nothing if not a polarizing figure!

So much dancing around the same often repeated opinions (stolen that thought) as well. Just let it go guys, he's gone and we've saved £600k a week, everyone's a winner.

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  • 2 weeks later...
10 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Good. Glad someone finally came out and said it.

Also that video of James watching an Al Rayyan game is priceless 😂

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11 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I don't think those comments are real.  I seen this article and someone posted those comments elsewhere but we would have heard all about it if he said that. 

Its probably what Rafa thinks but I doubt he said it. 

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2 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I don't think those comments are real.  I seen this article and someone posted those comments elsewhere but we would have heard all about it if he said that. 

Its probably what Rafa thinks but I doubt he said it. 

That is what I thought... I haven't seen or heard about them anywhere else and I imagine it would have made headline news.

Here is the original article linked to in that piece:

https://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/international/england/2110/Artikel/everton-trainer-benitez-kritik-james-rodriguez-katar-wechsel.html

A quick Google translate comes up with the same wording.

A further quick Google of the writer of the article suggests he is a genuine sports writer.

It is a bit of a strange one.

 

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55 minutes ago, Bailey said:

That is what I thought... I haven't seen or heard about them anywhere else and I imagine it would have made headline news.

Here is the original article linked to in that piece:

https://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/international/england/2110/Artikel/everton-trainer-benitez-kritik-james-rodriguez-katar-wechsel.html

A quick Google translate comes up with the same wording.

A further quick Google of the writer of the article suggests he is a genuine sports writer.

It is a bit of a strange one.

 

The translation is fine, but I don't think they've been made in the first place. 

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