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Political brain dump...


Matt

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Right, I’ve finally had time to get to a computer, although it still feels rushed despite so much time writing and editing over the last few days.

This is going to be a long and rambling rant, hence its own thread, so people can put it on ignore if they want. I will not refer to individuals, but you’ll probably know how you are. My aim is not to insult or berate etc. but rather vent my frustration over the whole political landscape and current situation, especially prevalent in the last couple of weeks. 1984 might still be ringing in my ears from 6 months ago, but only because the situation we continually find ourselves in keeps sounding the bell. For the record, I’m apparently a right wing liberal, if that wasn’t already clear, but predominantly a liberal.

I've written this here and there over the last week or so (you’ll probably see where I’ve edited things since it might be disjointed), and is my response to some of the utter horseshit, on here and from the wider world, that I’ve read and heard lately. Most of this is based on a reaction to the world outside of TT (which apparently exists), but there have been some triggers here that set it all off. As the title suggests it’s a brain dump, getting shit off my chest and out of my head and an emotional opinion.

I’m sure there will be aspects that will piss people off. There will be things I get incorrect. More likely both, and in addition I’m going to contradict some of my previous posts and opinions – that’s just inevitable but I’m comfortable with it and think it’s a good thing. If you’re in the second part, I’m open to proof to correct me (although I will not accept newspapers as “sources”. If you’re going to argue, share the source documentation. If you can’t be arsed, then you’ve got no basis for your argument and I won’t bother responding… At least, that’s my aim). If you’re in the first group, well tough shit unless you can show me genuine evidence and thought to your point (see point 2), and I will happily hold my hands up if I cannot counter.

 

Now that the PSA is out of the way, here goes…

The world is suffering. A minute percentage in terms of population, but massive in general terms and I’m sure personal to a lot of you, and with genuine dire consequences for millions+. By suffering I initially meant dying, but then there’s always knock on effects to families and friends who lose loved ones, to the people working stupid hours in ludicrous circumstances and under equipped.

The thing that’s triggered me so much into writing and rewriting this is this… That anyone has politicised this is a fucking embarrassment and you should be ashamed of yourselves if you have. This is not the fault of one party, this is the fault of all of us, globally. ALL OF US. The right have been and are in power? Don’t get me wrong, I hate the Torys with a passion for what they’ve done in both stints that they’ve been in power since I was born in the early 80’s. They have crippled the country irrevocably and absolutely should shoulder a lot of the blame. But they’re not alone. The left failed us completely too, either by their time in power or by failing to provide a convincing opposition to ensure the Tory’s never got into power again.

The Nazi comparisons are a fucking joke too. The Torys are fundamentally selfish, to the point that millions have suffered and died. Won’t and can’t deny that. Labour doesn’t have clean hands either, they have blood on their hands too. I won’t open that can of worms further, but I will add that it was overseas so… doesn’t count, right? That, for those it’s not obvious to, is sarcasm. But, whilst there is a distinction, neither of them are acceptable.

The Torys haven’t come out and declared themselves a superior race and wanting to eliminate another. They haven’t rounded people up, put those people under such strain and torture that they then start killing their own friends and family (the deathcamps were often mostly run by Jews who had been broken and compiled the list of numbers to be executed). If that comparison comes up again, I’m deleting the post outright (yes, I’m aware of the irony). That comparison completely undermines the meaning and memory of what happened in WW2, and times before and since, and you should be absolutely fucking ashamed of yourselves if you make the comparison between the two subjects. It’s the same with the use of the term racist; just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you can mean extreme terms to express yourself. It undermines the actual meaning, belittles the struggles of those that suffer/have suffered. Not to mention you become part of the problem, I’ll come back to that…

What the Torys have done, undeniably, has crippled the country. Brexit was a bad joke, the cheap slogans embarrassing and it’s a sad irony that the majority who voted that way won’t live to see it come to “fruition”, especially with this virus. What the right has done across the world is divide people, drive a bigger and bigger wedge between those with means and those without, so much so that the pendulum has gained momentum and the left are copying because it’s a “winning” strategy. The left are copying the right in order to get control, and none of the left parties have any fucking inkling of a plan apart from “get the power back”. Ok, you get the power back, what fucking then?! The idea that Corbyn could've done better is equally a bad joke since it's complete speculation yet people talk about it as a fact.

Labour, I thought, were being clever; play the long game, let the Torys commit what should’ve been political suicide, and coast on to victory. But they dillied and dallied, trying so hard to see where the voters where look that they lost their own vision and ended up lost. They should’ve learnt from the Lib Dem’s, although at least they didn’t sell their soul for a minute in the limelight – That single decision by the Lib Dem’s killed their party for the foreseeable and also played a major part in further dividing opinion.

If you think any of the parties represent you and your beliefs, then I don’t really know what to say. Even in the best-case scenario, they’ve sold you want you want to hear but won’t actually deliver it; it’s not in their interests afterall. I have gone from not having a vote anywhere in the world, to wanting to vote strategically, which makes me sick. Yet the populations of the world continue to vote in these bastards. To clarify, I am generalising, and there are good honest politicians out there.  But how broken does the system have to be that people can use “lesser of 2 evils” as a genuine reason to vote for a party!!! It’s madness. Anyone who doesn’t vote because they live in a stronghold – this is on you too. Use your voice rather than just succumb to defeat. Honest voting is the only way we’ll get any positive change, and I mean honest; not historical allegiance, not tactical – honest.

In any case, overall, politicians are liars. Either because they’re selfish and career-oriented, or know how to play the game for what they perceive to be the greater good and end up becoming corrupted by that dream. What choice have you got? Frankly none really, though more than me. It’s the “democracy” we’ve got, which in itself has variations, and it’s not going to change any time soon, especially considering recent events like Brexit and Covoid-19. But for the love of all that is holy or whatever term you want to use; can we not use this illness, killing people across the world and causing chaos and misery, as an opportunity to keep score against the other team? This isn’t a fucking competition, there is no cup to win. All politicians globally have failed us, past and present. Again, personally I believe the right wing has caused more damage than the left, presently and in the past. I’m not going to point fingers at a side – it’s on all of them, and consequently on all of those who can vote.  The only way any of them can be held accountable for all this and for real change is honest voting, and hopefully a change in the archaic democratic systems that the most powerful countries of the world still have in place. Everything else has to keep up with the times and adapt, everything else has to evolve, and sometimes it takes an unexpected leap, but politics just hasn’t, and it’s not the politicians that suffer the most, it’s the populations.

 

The only link I want to see between Covid-19 and politics in future is a dramatic change for the good of everyone. Point scoring will only make things worse, referring to the past events to blame the current situation will only distance people. Learn from the past, don’t use it as an excuse. If you have a voice, make sure it is educated with fact before voicing it, and be prepared to provide genuine evidence.

 

I hope this doesn’t cause a shitstorm, I’ve really not got the patience to spend! So I’ll finish with the most important part – Please take care, regardless of your political preference. Even the people I actively despise (with one exception, who’s not on the forum in case you’re wondering). Stay safe, support others where you can. If anyone wants to Skype or Facetime etc. because they’re alone, drop me a PM and we can say hi. Just take care of you, your own and everyone.

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The tory party clapped when they refused to give the nurses a pay rise and yet those same evil little nazi's are on their door step "clapping support". They haven't supported the NHS, they have purposely done the opposite "needless deaths" or murder by neglect would be a more fitting term. This is very much the time to highlight the issues, or politicise as you call it. Nurses, doctors and millions are at risk because of the current leaders lack of preparation* and because of his parties dangerously low underfunding of the NHS the last 10 years.

*we're clearly doing a back door herd immunity policy so preparation may be the wrong word. We've chose not to be join in with the rest of the EU to help prepare. Plus the delay in getting ventilation equipment passed on buying the equipment now and instead asked Dyson to build some. Biggest joke was the back up plan... Ask Donald trump to sort us. 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/british-government-blames-lost-emails-for-coronavirus-eu-procurement-chaos/

Were Hitler focused on the Jewish, the tory party have attacked the poor with their cruel and completely unfounded austerity policy, add to that the comments from BJ about Muslims, gays, and black people. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/perfect-storm-austerity-behind-130000-deaths-uk-ippr-report

And yes I said nazi, because they are far right, they are racist, they are fascist, and the proganda was unbelievable 88% of ads misleading. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-tory-labour-policy-hitler-appeasement-terrifying-parallels-a8553686.html%3famp

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5 minutes ago, Chach said:

@Matt were you after replies to this or just getting it off your chest?

Just getting off my chest. It’s by no means trying to present facts etc, but the nonsense of bringing Nazism into it all and the use of this pandemic as political pointscoring really wound me up. Happy to see replies as I mentioned, but I’ll only acknowledge actual source material rather than paper interpretation 

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31 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Matt, I haven't read your post but I gather you're arguing not to politicise the issue. That's just impossible and you aren't going to get your wish, never in a million years will an issue that is impacting on people's lives this much not be politicised. People are dying because of politics.

I’m angry that the current situation is being used as a point scoring opportunity. I’ve addressed the political historical aspect briefly (I would’ve written more but want to get it out there), and of course there’s a clear political point behind all this. That was past, I’m trying to look at the present and future; we are where we are, we need to work forward rather than waste energy on blaming past actions. 

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37 minutes ago, Matt said:

I’m angry that the current situation is being used as a point scoring opportunity. I’ve addressed the political historical aspect briefly (I would’ve written more but want to get it out there), and of course there’s a clear political point behind all this. That was past, I’m trying to look at the present and future; we are where we are, we need to work forward rather than waste energy on blaming past actions. 

I'm not saying you're right or wrong for that, but it's just not going to happen. Life and death, as this is, is going to be a big issue to everyone and if people think there is blame to be put on groups or people for the numbers dead then they are going to say so.

I'm not going to go into whether it's right or wrong to brush that under the carpet for the moment but it's going to be in your face throughout all of this, so I suggest you go and get in a bunker and don't go online and don't watch tv :lol: 

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10 hours ago, pete0 said:

Were Hitler focused on the Jewish, the tory party have attacked the poor with their cruel and completely unfounded austerity policy, add to that the comments from BJ about Muslims, gays, and black people. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/perfect-storm-austerity-behind-130000-deaths-uk-ippr-report

That article's main citation is research done by a left wing think tank, and the argument that research is making is that the government is essentially responsible for peoples poor lifestyle choices that result in preventable/premature death.

There is likely a well thought out conservative position rooted in moral foundations theory how that is not a fair and equitable position for society as a whole.

Hardly evidence of Fascism. No wonder we're getting hammered at every possible election. Non stop claims to victimhood get boring.

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2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I'm not saying you're right or wrong for that, but it's just not going to happen. Life and death, as this is, is going to be a big issue to everyone and if people think there is blame to be put on groups or people for the numbers dead then they are going to say so.

I'm not going to go into whether it's right or wrong to brush that under the carpet for the moment but it's going to be in your face throughout all of this, so I suggest you go and get in a bunker and don't go online and don't watch tv :lol: 

That’s absolutely going to happen, but the rant was getting shit off my chest. I’m not hiding from the present or past, i just wanted to say and encourage people to look forward rather than dwell on the failings of the past

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

Just getting off my chest. It’s by no means trying to present facts etc, but the nonsense of bringing Nazism into it all and the use of this pandemic as political pointscoring really wound me up. Happy to see replies as I mentioned, but I’ll only acknowledge actual source material rather than paper interpretation 

What parallels don't you agree with between our tory government and the former German one? 

As for point scoring. This isn't point scoring. People are dying because we have such a cruel government. 

Do you think austerity was the right thing to do? When has it ever worked in history? 

Back to the point scoring as you call it. At the moment how this has been dealt with is disgraceful. We had months to prepare yet our disgrace of a PM went round shaking hands in hospitals and misleading people that it's nothing to worry about, that very same 'leader' is now fining people for standing to close to their mates which is a rediculous policy when you're still allowing them to work next to each other. You think no one should criticise this shit show the government is running? You think it's fine that our gov is saying one thing whilst doing another? The government passed on PPE equipment, the government also chose not to join the EU in finding resources (and lied to the public they missed the email to do so). Then the shit hit the fan and we asked dyson to make some rather than use a ready to go supplier... All whilst people are dying. And that's the bottom line. People are dying. That's not point scoring. 

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2 hours ago, Chach said:

That article's main citation is research done by a left wing think tank, and the argument that research is making is that the government is essentially responsible for peoples poor lifestyle choices that result in preventable/premature death.

There is likely a well thought out conservative position rooted in moral foundations theory how that is not a fair and equitable position for society as a whole.

Hardly evidence of Fascism. No wonder we're getting hammered at every possible election. Non stop claims to victimhood get boring.

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

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14 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What parallels don't you agree with between our tory government and the former German one? 

 

You can build a case for many of the things you mention (Government cruelty, uselessness, lack of planning, hypocrisy), but to make a parallel with the Nazis is an affront to those who lived under the regime, and the families of those affected.  

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23 minutes ago, Formby said:

You can build a case for many of the things you mention (Government cruelty, uselessness, lack of planning, hypocrisy), but to make a parallel with the Nazis is an affront to those who lived under the regime, and the families of those affected.  

It's more offensive to not learn from history. Our leader and his party have used the same tactics as the Nazis (their party even has this guy https://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mp-pictured-hanging-out-with-hitler-loving-holocaust-denying-neo-nazi-at-brexit-event/ ). 

We should be standing up against the far right. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-lammy-tory-brexiteers-nazi-aprtheid-racist-immigration-erg-rees-mogg-a8869371.html%3famp

 

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I agree now is not the time for infighting or points scoring we need to work together to conquer this, but mistakes have been made and when this is over they need addressing  and if it means attacking those who took part in the mistakes then so be it, why should they be able to have immunity on the decisions they made. 
Try to remember people are dying young and old and when this is finished there families will want answers, and they should get the answers to there questions no matter how political the inquest becomes. 
And I don’t wish Boris any harm I may not like him or his party, but I would get no pleasure in anyone dying, but I would feel some satisfaction in seeing him answer his critics for what could be proven to be an unnecessary loss of life, under Cameron Mays and his tenure as PM. 
 

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1 hour ago, Formby said:

You can build a case for many of the things you mention (Government cruelty, uselessness, lack of planning, hypocrisy), but to make a parallel with the Nazis is an affront to those who lived under the regime, and the families of those affected.  

Exactly this. 

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4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Can you explain what you meant by that. 

Isn’t it obvious?! The Nazis hunted people, murdered by the millions directly. The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil but they’re still a million miles from Hitlers regime and ideal. The affront is the complete ignorance of the events and lack of respect for those that died to defend freedom. 

I did say I’d delete nazi references, without deliberation, so 1 reply each with that reference then I’ll start deleting 

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49 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree now is not the time for infighting or points scoring we need to work together to conquer this, but mistakes have been made and when this is over they need addressing  and if it means attacking those who took part in the mistakes then so be it, why should they be able to have immunity on the decisions they made. 
Try to remember people are dying young and old and when this is finished there families will want answers, and they should get the answers to there questions no matter how political the inquest becomes. 
And I don’t wish Boris any harm I may not like him or his party, but I would get no pleasure in anyone dying, but I would feel some satisfaction in seeing him answer his critics for what could be proven to be an unnecessary loss of life, under Cameron Mays and his tenure as PM. 
 

Mistakes were made, and those who made them should be held accountable. But that’s everyone who voted at the end of the day. 

Look forward, and in looking forward learn from the past. Anything else will simply be destructive 

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15 minutes ago, Matt said:

Isn’t it obvious?! The Nazis hunted people, murdered by the millions directly. The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil but they’re still a million miles from Hitlers regime and ideal. The affront is the complete ignorance of the events and lack of respect for those that died to defend freedom. 

I did say I’d delete nazi references, without deliberation, so 1 reply each with that reference then I’ll start deleting 

The Nazi’s were a political party from the early 30s voted in by the people of Germany, not started just for the the extinction of the Jews and any other race or religion Hitler didn’t like. 
The first concentration camps opened in 1933 for political opponents they were work camps not death camps, though I’m sure many died in them none the less, things changed in 1939 when Hitler and his inner circle put the SS in charge of the camps to systematically kill Jews homosexuals Romany gypsies and other groups they believed should be exterminated. 
But the vast majority of Germans who voted for the the far right Nazi party were unaware what was happening in these camps because it wasn’t general knowledge. 
So a Nazi isn’t automatically someone who was part of the SS killing machine they are in the main people who voted for a far right party. 
The thing is everyone one who voted them in power cannot be held responsible for the fact that there leaders turned out to be  psychopathic monsters who had built themselves a private army in the SS to carry out their orders, an army of killers who struck fear in their own countrymen. 
Since when has it been illegal to call someone a Nazi in this country, and is deleting freedom of speech because it doesn’t sit well with you not the actions of far right parties. 

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2 hours ago, pete0 said:

It's more offensive to not learn from history. Our leader and his party have used the same tactics as the Nazis (their party even has this guy https://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mp-pictured-hanging-out-with-hitler-loving-holocaust-denying-neo-nazi-at-brexit-event/ ). 

We should be standing up against the far right. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-lammy-tory-brexiteers-nazi-aprtheid-racist-immigration-erg-rees-mogg-a8869371.html%3famp

 

The tactics you refer to do not amount to the Nazi's Final Solution. They reflect a government out of touch with its people, who carry out iniquitous and heartless policies.

It's ironic that Lammy cites Churchill, who had decidedly racist views himself.

 

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2 minutes ago, Formby said:

The tactics you refer to do not amount to the Nazi's Final Solution. They reflect a government out of touch with its people, who carry out iniquitous and heartless policies.

It's ironic that Lammy cites Churchill, who had decidedly racist views himself.

 

In Churchill’s life time nearly everyone had the same views and racism wasn’t on the agenda. 

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3 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The Nazi’s were a political party from the early 30s voted in by the people of Germany, not started just for the the extinction of the Jews and any other race or religion Hitler didn’t like. 
The first concentration camps opened in 1933 for political opponents they were work camps not death camps, though I’m sure many died in them none the less, things changed in 1939 when Hitler and his inner circle put the SS in charge of the camps to systematically kill Jews homosexuals Romany gypsies and other groups they believed should be exterminated. 
But the vast majority of Germans who voted for the the far right Nazi party were unaware what was happening in these camps because it wasn’t general knowledge. 
So a Nazi isn’t automatically someone who was part of the SS killing machine they are in the main people who voted for a far right party. 
The thing is everyone one who voted them in power cannot be held responsible for the fact that there leaders turned out to be  psychopathic monsters who had built themselves a private army in the SS to carry out their orders, an army of killers who struck fear in their own countrymen. 
Since when has it been illegal to call someone a Nazi in this country, and is deleting freedom of speech because it doesn’t sit well with you not the actions of far right parties. 

Is Pete comparing the Tory Party to Germans who belonged to the Nazi Party and didn't know what was going on? I certainly didn't read it that way. I presumed it was to the 'SS killing machine'.

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3 minutes ago, Formby said:

Is Pete comparing the Tory Party to Germans who belonged to the Nazi Party and didn't know what was going on? I certainly didn't read it that way. I presumed it was to the 'SS killing machine'.

This is why it’s all getting out of control and in all honesty Pete may have meant what you thought, and if he did then that is indefensible and I don’t know anyone who could defend that. 

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5 minutes ago, johnh said:

And the Mod's are asleep at the wheel.

A mod posted this and has explained exactly what will happen and is completely aware. I only didn’t do it immediately because a rant like mine will always cause a response. 

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Personally I think references to the nazi party are rhetorical; just people making a point. Plainly there's no comparison to the consequence of what the government are doing to what Hitler did in reality but it's just holding up a mirror. I've mentioned before that my mother-in-law was one of the "kindertransport" in 1939 and my wife (and consequently my kids) had relatives who died in Auschwitz and Theresienstadt.

The comparisons for me are exaggerated, but I really don't think personally they should be shut down; anyone who disagrees (like Matt) is free to make their point.

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2 hours ago, Formby said:

The tactics you refer to do not amount to the Nazi's Final Solution. They reflect a government out of touch with its people, who carry out iniquitous and heartless policies.

It's ironic that Lammy cites Churchill, who had decidedly racist views himself.

 

They both kill innocent people in cruel ways. Both used facism/racism/fear and propaganda to get into power. So because tories only kill poor people that makes them different?

Doesn't take away from his point, you know that we should stand up and stop the cruelty. 

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4 hours ago, Matt said:

Isn’t it obvious?! The Nazis hunted people, murdered by the millions directly. The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil but they’re still a million miles from Hitlers regime and ideal. The affront is the complete ignorance of the events and lack of respect for those that died to defend freedom. 

I did say I’d delete nazi references, without deliberation, so 1 reply each with that reference then I’ll start deleting 

The tories and their voters are starving people to death. I don't know enough about how much the average German voter would have known about what Hitler was doing but our population is well aware of consequences of austerity (and NHS under funding) given the last decade. 

To call tories greedy is downplaying the absolute cruelty of what they're willing to sacrifice for their wealth i.e. the poor/working class. 

2 hours ago, Formby said:

Is Pete comparing the Tory Party to Germans who belonged to the Nazi Party and didn't know what was going on? I certainly didn't read it that way. I presumed it was to the 'SS killing machine'.

I've not mentioned the SS. 

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