Political brain dump...

[Matt]

14 minutes ago, Matt said:

 OK. This went as exactly as expected sadly. Closed.  

Not the right thing to do. Apologies for the reactionary comment

[Chach]

17 hours ago, Matt said:

The Tory’s are greedy to the extent that they’re evil

Honestly, when it comes to the politics of human morality you are the equivalent of a climate change denier. How many times does the science of why some people are liberal and why some are conservative and why it's important for the group as whole have to be pointed out before you reflect on how stupid it is to think half the population are evil because they don;t share your political views?

You can't pick and choose the science you believe, truth is truth. Conservatives are not evil, they have different priorities.

[StevO]

Just remembered why I stopped reading the political threads. 
 

I still remember the good old days at the beginning of the decade when the government at the time threw cash at everything. They were glory days. Until the economy crashed and there was no money left. 
 

I have no political leaning, I don’t care which party is in power as long as the population is taken care of. I don’t remember a single government who didn’t fuck up. I don’t think a single one has been intentionally cruel, though the outcome of their actions have no doubt been felt that way, the problem with the human race is we all think we are doing the right thing. 

[pete0]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

Honestly, when it comes to the politics of human morality you are the equivalent of a climate change denier. How many times does the science of why some people are liberal and why some are conservative and why it's important for the group as whole have to be pointed out before you reflect on how stupid it is to think half the population are evil because they don;t share your political views?

You can't pick and choose the science you believe, truth is truth. Conservatives are not evil, they have different priorities.

You can educate yourself. Stephen Fry gives a great explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional that someone put on here. 

Any how care to stop picking and choosing what you respond to? 

22 hours ago, pete0 said:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

I'll add another. What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do?

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

[Palfy]

43 minutes ago, StevO said:

Just remembered why I stopped reading the political threads. 
 

I still remember the good old days at the beginning of the decade when the government at the time threw cash at everything. They were glory days. Until the economy crashed and there was no money left. 
 

I have no political leaning, I don’t care which party is in power as long as the population is taken care of. I don’t remember a single government who didn’t fuck up. I don’t think a single one has been intentionally cruel, though the outcome of their actions have no doubt been felt that way, the problem with the human race is we all think we are doing the right thing. 

Send me some of what you’re on Steve. 

[pete0]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

. I don’t think a single one has been intentionally cruel, though the outcome of their actions have no doubt been felt that way, the problem with the human race is we all think we are doing the right thing. 

What evidence is there in history to support austerity? 

Add to that the unfunding of the NHS and treatment of their staff. 

[StevO]

41 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What evidence is there in history to support austerity? 

Add to that the unfunding of the NHS and treatment of their staff. 

There may be no evidence to support austerity, but there can’t be much evidence to say keep increasing debt I’m sure. 
 

You honestly think that they would reduce spending so people die? You actually think that is the plan of the government? To kill people?

I’m not trying to defend their policies by the way. But the idea that there are actual evil people in power in this country who want people to die and actively create policy to make that happen is just daft to me. 
 

The UK is two trillion pounds in debt, two trillion. I can’t even get my head around that number. We are paying billions per annum in interest alone. This isn’t a problem that happened just since this Tory government got into power. It’s been getting worse for a long time. I don’t know how to fix it, or how they split the money they have between health care, emergency services, education, I’d hate to be the guy deciding who gets what. There are no winners.
 

Do we all fancy paying more tax to help get more money to these services? 
 

I don’t know the answer, I don’t want to defend anyone, but every government for at least the last two decades hasn’t managed to make this better, regardless of the colour of their tie.
 

I’m pretty sure if any of them asked us all to pay 30% VAT it would go down like a lead balloon. We don’t want to pay more duty on fuel or alcohol. We want to pay less tax and national insurance. I don’t see how they can get more money in without taking it off us all. Again, impossible situation. Why would anyone want to be PM?

I don’t want this to seem like I think anyone is doing a good job or like I think the NHS is well funded. Quite the opposite as my wife is living through the current sleepless nights that her and her colleagues in the NHS are all going through, whilst four months pregnant. She could do with an extra few quid in her pocket for the stress. 

[pete0]

2 hours ago, StevO said:

There may be no evidence to support austerity, but there can’t be much evidence to say keep increasing debt I’m sure. 

Austerity hasn't reduced debt, debt has doubled under the tories. You said no one has been intentionally cruel yet present no evidence to show austerity is anything other. 

You honestly think that they would reduce spending so people die? You actually think that is the plan of the government? To kill people?

Clear as day isn't it. Given what they've done with health and benefit spending is it not  inevitable that more people will die. What are we getting in return for those deaths? Debt hasn't gone down, it's doubled and poverty is rife. 

I’m not trying to defend their policies by the way. But the idea that there are actual evil people in power in this country who want people to die and actively create policy to make that happen is just daft to me. 
 

isn't that exactly what their policies have done. 10 years ago I'd never heard of a food bank yet today people are commiting suicide as they can't afford to feed their families.  This is a consequence to tory policy and completely unjustifiable. 

The UK is two trillion pounds in debt, two trillion. I can’t even get my head around that number. We are paying billions per annum in interest alone. This isn’t a problem that happened just since this Tory government got into power. It’s been getting worse for a long time. I don’t know how to fix it, or how they split the money they have between health care, emergency services, education, I’d hate to be the guy deciding who gets what. There are no winners.
 

The rich have tripled their wealth in the last decade. It'd help if we closed loopholes and taxed them. It'd also help if we had better workers rights, pay, and affordable houses. The average persons disposable income is buttons compared to the other top European countries because our government has let companies exploit the workers. Should nationalise public services too which unnecessarily eat at the common man's disposable income as their ran for profit (profit that is under taxed and bled out of the country). 

Do we all fancy paying more tax to help get more money to these services? 

All day. 

I don’t know the answer, I don’t want to defend anyone, but every government for at least the last two decades hasn’t managed to make this better, regardless of the colour of their tie.

I can only go from Blair onwards but it has been very much worse and worse. Bills are higher, travel costs are higher, housing is higher, rents are crippling, and real wages are lower. 

I’m pretty sure if any of them asked us all to pay 30% VAT it would go down like a lead balloon. We don’t want to pay more duty on fuel or alcohol. We want to pay less tax and national insurance. I don’t see how they can get more money in without taking it off us all. Again, impossible situation. Why would anyone want to be PM?

Already covered this above but in short they should charge more corporation tax and encourage firms to pay higher wages (which results in more PAYE being collected). Regarding VAT I'd happily abolish it and just increase corporation tax. 

I don’t want this to seem like I think anyone is doing a good job or like I think the NHS is well funded. Quite the opposite as my wife is living through the current sleepless nights that her and her colleagues in the NHS are all going through, whilst four months pregnant. She could do with an extra few quid in her pocket for the stress. 

She deserves better pay full stop. At the moment though all key workers should be given more. (I've heard a few of the supermarkets have promised uplifts and bonuses).  

 

[Palfy]

Putting VAT up to 30% would just make the poor poorer, austerity didn’t work because they took the money from the people and lavished it on big businesses. 
What any government should do in any country is say that every pound of profit made by any company should have to pay the tax on it in the country it was made, not be allowed to register there companies in the Cayman Islands and send there profits to off shore accounts. 
Companies like Amazon are destroying jobs in this country turning over billions of pounds here and paying very little in tax and making a very few mega rich. 
Put corporation tax up by 5% put income tax up for those on 40% to 45% and had 1% on top of the brackets below the 40%.
But don’t do what the Tories have been doing for 10 years, cutting services and help to those who must need it, to give companies huge tax breaks.  

[Palfy]

The WHO demand politicalisation of the Covid 19 virus after Trump attacks, that’s what should happen it is most definitely a political issue even though some on here say it isn’t, so keep fighting Pete your doing everyone a service by bringing the failures of this government to people’s attention, even though some deny it or don’t like it. 
The the truth is the Tories have fucked up not just in the last 3 month but the last 10 years. 

[pete0]

@Palfy cheers mate, just wish more people could see if for themselves and we'd not be in this current mess. 

[johnh]

On 07/04/2020 at 19:54, MikeO said:

Personally I think references to the nazi party are rhetorical; just people making a point. Plainly there's no comparison to the consequence of what the government are doing to what Hitler did in reality but it's just holding up a mirror. I've mentioned before that my mother-in-law was one of the "kindertransport" in 1939 and my wife (and consequently my kids) had relatives who died in Auschwitz and Theresienstadt.

The comparisons for me are exaggerated, but I really don't think personally they should be shut down; anyone who disagrees (like Matt) is free to make their point.

Can't believe I just read the above post.   'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' -  please explain how that is rhetorical?    At least 'being asleep at the wheel' would be a feeble excuse.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

The WHO demand politicalisation of the Covid 19 virus after Trump attacks, that’s what should happen it is most definitely a political issue even though some on here say it isn’t, so keep fighting Pete your doing everyone a service by bringing the failures of this government to people’s attention, even though some deny it or don’t like it. 
The the truth is the Tories have fucked up not just in the last 3 month but the last 10 years. 

Who denied it or didn’t like it?

Ive not seen that in here. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

Who denied it or didn’t like it?

Ive not seen that in here. 

People are dying due to the measures the Tories brought in, a vast majority of Tories who are doing well refuse to see it or even consider it as fact, go to a web site called full fact they are an independent charity with no axe to grind on any political parties they just relay facts and true figures. 
One fact is now 33% of children now live in families under the poverty line, and 22% of those children are material starved meaning they are going hungry and cold and don’t have adequate clothes or shoes to wear, that’s children under this government who for no thought of their own are becoming a forgotten generation by the Tories who are doing very well thanks, and every year they pull the ladder further up. 
Have a look at suicide in creases and the main reasons, have a look at disability and people been made to feel like beggars where their disability aid is stopped but their disability hasn’t gone away. 
Have a Look at the stats on pensioners dying because they are to scared to put the heating on. 
I say fuck the Tories fuck all of them they voted for this party led by the far right wing of the party, they voted from the misery caused to the weakest in our society, and the money was there to make it a fairer society but it was given to those who didn’t need it to become richer than there dreams, by getting inducements and paying little tax, and the Tories wear that as a badge of honour we are not the party that taxes, no you’re not bravo but just look at damage you have caused in the last 10 years something to be really proud of.

 

[StevO]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

People are dying due to the measures the Tories brought in, a vast majority of Tories who are doing well refuse to see it or even consider it as fact, go to a web site called full fact they are an independent charity with no axe to grind on any political parties they just relay facts and true figures. 
One fact is now 33% of children now live in families under the poverty line, and 22% of those children are material starved meaning they are going hungry and cold and don’t have adequate clothes or shoes to wear, that’s children under this government who for no thought of their own are becoming a forgotten generation by the Tories who are doing very well thanks, and every year they pull the ladder further up. 
Have a look at suicide in creases and the main reasons, have a look at disability and people been made to feel like beggars where their disability aid is stopped but their disability hasn’t gone away. 
Have a Look at the stats on pensioners dying because they are to scared to put the heating on. 
I say fuck the Tories fuck all of them they voted for this party led by the far right wing of the party, they voted from the misery caused to the weakest in our society, and the money was there to make it a fairer society but it was given to those who didn’t need it to become richer than there dreams, by getting inducements and paying little tax, and the Tories wear that as a badge of honour we are not the party that taxes, no you’re not bravo but just look at damage you have caused in the last 10 years something to be really proud of.

 

I just asked who denied it or didn’t like it in here. As I’ve not seen that from anyone.  

[MikeO]

5 hours ago, johnh said:

Can't believe I just read the above post.   'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' -  please explain how that is rhetorical?    At least 'being asleep at the wheel' would be a feeble excuse.

I said that references to the nazi party are, in my opinion, rhetorical (or at least should be). 'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' makes no reference to the nazi party.

As I've said I don't agree with comparisons to Hitler because there is no comparison but it's also undeniable, again in my opinion formed by looking at the evidence, that austerity has caused people to die so I can understand people being upset at the party responsible for it.

[Palfy]

12 minutes ago, StevO said:

I just asked who denied it or didn’t like it in here. As I’ve not seen that from anyone.  

You don’t believe that by making the cuts they have they have knowingly contributed to people’s deaths, I strongly believe they did know that slashing the health and welfare budget to increase tax perks for companies and the rich would lead to deaths, so are we to believe that they didn’t do there homework and let them off the hook, or do we believe they ran the model and ignored the consequences, I strongly believe the latter. 

[StevO]

7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

You don’t believe that by making the cuts they have they have knowingly contributed to people’s deaths, I strongly believe they did know that slashing the health and welfare budget to increase tax perks for companies and the rich would lead to deaths, so are we to believe that they didn’t do there homework and let them off the hook, or do we believe they ran the model and ignored the consequences, I strongly believe the latter. 

I didn’t say that Palfy. I don’t believe they did anything to intentionally make people die. I agree that the cuts have led to deaths, but I don’t believe that was anyone’s intention. I believe everyone makes decisions based on what they think is right, I don’t believe anyone in power in this country sat there thinking “let’s kill a few people”. They will be judges on the mistakes they have been made, and rightly so, when you get to offices of that height your mistakes have massive consequences and they will have to deal with that. I just don’t think it’s premeditated murder.

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, StevO said:

I didn’t say that Palfy. I don’t believe they did anything to intentionally make people die. I agree that the cuts have led to deaths, but I don’t believe that was anyone’s intention. I believe everyone makes decisions based on what they think is right, I don’t believe anyone in power in this country sat there thinking “let’s kill a few people”. They will be judges on the mistakes they have been made, and rightly so, when you get to offices of that height your mistakes have massive consequences and they will have to deal with that. I just don’t think it’s premeditated murder.

We’re go with manslaughter as a minimum  then, look I don’t believe they sat around a table like Hitler and his inner circle and said this is who we are going to exterminate and this is how we are going to do it. 
I think they made decisions knowing that those decisions would ultimately lead to death for some, and the cynic in me is nearly making me believe that the biggest problem for the Tories is the welfare budget, and what a good way to reduce it by coming up with ideas to reducing it by making it inevitable that those who need go to there graves earlier than necessary, a bit far fetched I know but I wouldn’t put it past them. 

[StevO]

36 minutes ago, Palfy said:

We’re go with manslaughter as a minimum  then, look I don’t believe they sat around a table like Hitler and his inner circle and said this is who we are going to exterminate and this is how we are going to do it. 
I think they made decisions knowing that those decisions would ultimately lead to death for some, and the cynic in me is nearly making me believe that the biggest problem for the Tories is the welfare budget, and what a good way to reduce it by coming up with ideas to reducing it by making it inevitable that those who need go to there graves earlier than necessary, a bit far fetched I know but I wouldn’t put it past them. 

I get where you’re coming from mate, I really do. I just don’t think it’s as black and white as that. I don’t honestly don’t think it would be any different if another party got in either. They are all interested in the votes and the power, but I think none of them will ever get it right. They will think they are doing right, but then the really hard decisions get blundered a bit to save votes. As I said a few posts back, who would want to be PM? It’s a job where no one wins. 

[johnh]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I said that references to the nazi party are, in my opinion, rhetorical (or at least should be). 'The Tories and their voters are starving people to death' makes no reference to the nazi party.

As I've said I don't agree with comparisons to Hitler because there is no comparison but it's also undeniable, again in my opinion formed by looking at the evidence, that austerity has caused people to die so I can understand people being upset at the party responsible for it.

Short memory.  Why was austerity necessary?  Labour were at least honest and left their infamous note in the Treasury -  'There is no money left'.  Every Labour Government since WW2 has destroyed the economy, Gordon Brown did a better job than most.

[MikeO]

12 minutes ago, johnh said:

Short memory.  Why was austerity necessary?  Labour were at least honest and left their infamous note in the Treasury -  'There is no money left'.  Every Labour Government since WW2 has destroyed the economy, Gordon Brown did a better job than most.

Sorry John but I think you're moving the goalposts. Also unless my mind is playing tricks you've said on here that you've voted Labour in the past. Why if they're so bad? Personally I've never voted Tory or Labour in any election in my life, be it local, national or European. I sleep well with that.

[pete0]

11 minutes ago, johnh said:

Short memory.  Why was austerity necessary?  Labour were at least honest and left their infamous note in the Treasury -  'There is no money left'.  Every Labour Government since WW2 has destroyed the economy, Gordon Brown did a better job than most.

So what has austerity done to help? 

Labour didn't destroy the economy, the American loan crisis did. The economy was naturally going to bounce back yet our scum bags running the country used it as an excuse to exploit the poor. Rich people have doubled their wealth on the back of low taxes and poor working rights/wages. Meanwhile the UK debt has doubled! You can't justify that party. They wouldn't need to spout 88% falsehoods to get in power if they actually ran the county properly.

[Formby]

57 minutes ago, pete0 said:

 They wouldn't need to spout 88% falsehoods to get in power if they actually ran the county properly.

I don't think running the country properly enters their thinking, though. Not one for citing Peter Hitchens too often (more impressed with his late brother) but I did think he was right when he said the Conservative Party was not conservative at all, but a machine for obtaining power. I would go further than that, and say it is a machine geared for maintaining power. I think this has become a huge problem in politics, generally.

[Chach]

On 07/04/2020 at 21:41, pete0 said:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

I don't need to present any evidence, you are the one making claims that the government is responsible for everyones poor health choices. Then when the holes are pointed out in you argument you just move the goal posts and say I have to provide evidence.

Try and be honest or all your posts will be ignored.

On 08/04/2020 at 20:39, pete0 said:

You can educate yourself. Stephen Fry gives a great explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional that someone put on here. 

That video is a very simplified take on moral foundations theory, being the origins of morality and how it affects our politics which I have been espousing the whole time, not an "explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional"

[pete0]

28 minutes ago, Chach said:

I don't need to present any evidence, you are the one making claims that the government is responsible for everyones poor health choices. Then when the holes are pointed out in you argument you just move the goal posts and say I have to provide evidence.

Try and be honest or all your posts will be ignored.

That video is a very simplified take on moral foundations theory, being the origins of morality and how it affects our politics which I have been espousing the whole time, not an "explanation regarding tory brains not being fully functional"

What an absolute tory politician response this is. Fucking embarrassing. 

One, you've just rambled without giving a response to a very simple question. How many more deaths? 

Two, you've then deflected saying you've already picked holes(three, superior complex) and that I need to be honest (again deflecting, but I'll call this number four, you're dishonest; will lie and try to drag down an opponent rather than rise above them with an argument).

All I've asked is for how many and some evidence. Not hard is it. Show me were you've already picked holes or admit you're a liar with a brain that has an over active fearful section that makes you less able to make a well informed unbiased decision. 

Now for the cherry on top. Number five, in true fascist fashion you've actually took the time to delete part of quote rather than address it. Says a lot about your ideals when you can't even answer a question asking what good your ideals bring. 

I'll add another. What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do?

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

[Chach]

15 minutes ago, pete0 said:

What an absolute tory politician response this is. Fucking embarrassing. 

One, you've just rambled without giving a response to a very simple question. How many more deaths? 

Two, you've then deflected saying you've already picked holes(three, superior complex) and that I need to be honest (again deflecting, but I'll call this number four, you're dishonest; will lie and try to drag down an opponent rather than rise above them with an argument).

All I've asked is for how many and some evidence. Not hard is it. Show me were you've already picked holes or admit you're a liar with a brain that has an over active fearful section that makes you less able to make a well informed unbiased decision. 

Now for the cherry on top. Number five, in true fascist fashion you've actually took the time to delete part of quote rather than address it. Says a lot about your ideals when you can't even answer a question asking what good your ideals bring. 

I'll add another. What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do?

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

Have never voted for a conservative government in my 28 years of voting, being left wing doesn't mean you have to misrepresent the nature or ideas of your political opponents. which is primarily your modus operandi.

You've literally just accused me of being a fascist because I never addressed all of the parts of your post that you wanted me to. Do you think that's balanced Pete?

[pete0]

19 minutes ago, Chach said:

Have never voted for a conservative government in my 28 years of voting, being left wing doesn't mean you have to misrepresent the nature or ideas of your political opponents. which is primarily your modus operandi.

You've literally just accused me of being a fascist because I never addressed all of the parts of your post that you wanted me to. Do you think that's balanced Pete?

You've still not responsed. Why are you finding it so hard to answer a simple question? 

Voting tory or not you still share their disgusting ideals. Again you're deflecting. You as a person absolutely disgust me. How have misrepresentated? Quote were I have and give an explanation and whilst you're at it quote we've you've already picked holes in my arguments, that or apologise for being the nasty little manipulative liar you are. 

How is it unbalanced? I've explained everything yet you can't even give straight forward answers. 

For the fifth(?) time:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

 

[Chach]

19 hours ago, pete0 said:

You've still not responsed. Why are you finding it so hard to answer a simple question? 

Voting tory or not you still share their disgusting ideals. Again you're deflecting. You as a person absolutely disgust me. How have misrepresentated? Quote were I have and give an explanation and whilst you're at it quote we've you've already picked holes in my arguments, that or apologise for being the nasty little manipulative liar you are. 

How is it unbalanced? I've explained everything yet you can't even give straight forward answers. 

For the fifth(?) time:

How many deaths do you believe underfunding the NHS has caused? 

What evidence you presenting? 

What did the tories do well? 

What good did they do

What was it they prioritised and delivered instead? 

 

You should consider logging off for a bit Pete, you're getting a but deranged.

[pete0]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

You should consider logging off for a bit Pete, you're getting a but deranged.

Why aren't you answering? Is it because you've just realised how disgusting your views are or have you known all along and just ashamed to defend them? 

Edit: @Chach you got any evidence to back up that deranged comment or you gonna apologise for the fearful part of the brain getting over active and you not being strong enough to fight your instincts?