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Jordan Pickford was a goalkeeper before he came here!

Just back to Godfrey for a moment - an underrated moment from yesterday was watching Henderson's head bounce off him and Godfrey barely even noticed he'd been touched and looked confused as to why Hen

Needed to stay closer to Mane a couple of times but other than that done well all things considered, out of position,new team, and pitted against Mane who Liverpool were playing too.

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

At least that's sorted then. He could be a world class centre back but only a Championship midfielder. Who would have thought.

Ffs bailey let it fookin go.... I said this:-

I think the point is he started as a midfielder and with his attributes he is  able to play there to a high level despite having spent his recent development as a centre half.  Many norwich fans and pundits think he could be a top class DM. He was outstanding for Shrewsbury as a DM and York

Danny Murphy spent 5 minutes speaking glowingly on talksport as to how he think he could play 3 positions equally as well. ... Centre half, full back or midfield.

Put the shovel away.  I knew naff all about him but found out a fair bit in a short time - maybe you should have done that instead of arguing that top centre halves can't be top midfielders and vice versa. 

Ffs Ruud Gullit played one of the best games I've seen at Goodison as a centre half. 

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16 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Ffs bailey let it fookin go.... I said this:-

I think the point is he started as a midfielder and with his attributes he is  able to play there to a high level despite having spent his recent development as a centre half.  Many norwich fans and pundits think he could be a top class DM. He was outstanding for Shrewsbury as a DM and York

Danny Murphy spent 5 minutes speaking glowingly on talksport as to how he think he could play 3 positions equally as well. ... Centre half, full back or midfield.

Put the shovel away.  I knew naff all about him but found out a fair bit in a short time - maybe you should have done that instead of arguing that top centre halves can't be top midfielders and vice versa. 

Ffs Ruud Gullit played one of the best games I've seen at Goodison as a centre half. 

I was just winding you up!

My view is my view and nothing you have said has changed that. There still hasn't been one example of a top centre half who has gone on to be a top central midfielder, at least not in the modern era. I am not arguing that top midfielders can't go on to be top centre halves however most of them are midfielders at a lower level or youth level in any event, but I do not dispute that there are a few of those and never have.

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2 hours ago, Bailey said:

I was just winding you up!

My view is my view and nothing you have said has changed that. There still hasn't been one example of a top centre half who has gone on to be a top central midfielder, at least not in the modern era. I am not arguing that top midfielders can't go on to be top centre halves however most of them are midfielders at a lower level or youth level in any event, but I do not dispute that there are a few of those and never have.

Gareth Barry.

The fact is most go midfield to centre half as it is common sense to allow for loss of pace as they get older.

The other fact of the matter in this is that nearly all players that play both positions go on at the top level for a greater period of time.

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11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Gareth Barry.

The fact is most go midfield to centre half as it is common sense to allow for loss of pace as they get older.

The other fact of the matter in this is that nearly all players that play both positions go on at the top level for a greater period of time.

Wasn’t he a left-back?

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5 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Gareth Barry.

The fact is most go midfield to centre half as it is common sense to allow for loss of pace as they get older.

The other fact of the matter in this is that nearly all players that play both positions go on at the top level for a greater period of time.

He made 10 appearances at centre half.

He wasn't a top centre half. Although on balance I would say he was probably capable. 

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1 minute ago, Bailey said:

He made 10 appearances at centre half.

He wasn't a top centre half. Although on balance I would say he was probably capable. 

Talking utter crap now Bailey.  He played centre half in the 2000 fa cup final.... id say that's a capable level for a 19/20 year old. Made his debut in 98, played near 70 games up til that stage.... With Southgate band Ugo

Southgate rated him as the best young centre half he had seen.  Made his England debut at left back.... Alan Wright told me himself he had everything bar pace but didn't need it - was the best player at villa even before he went to midfield. 

We could go into the realm of James milner and discuss his someone can play attacking mid, centre mid, right wing, fight back, defensive mid to a ridiculous level... Id sooner leave it at Barry. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Talking utter crap now Bailey.  He played centre half in the 2000 fa cup final.... id say that's a capable level for a 19/20 year old. Made his debut in 98, played near 70 games up til that stage.... With Southgate band Ugo

Southgate rated him as the best young centre half he had seen.  Made his England debut at left back.... Alan Wright told me himself he had everything bar pace but didn't need it - was the best player at villa even before he went to midfield. 

We could go into the realm of James milner and discuss his someone can play attacking mid, centre mid, right wing, fight back, defensive mid to a ridiculous level... Id sooner leave it at Barry. 

 

 

Haf, Bailey is a lawyer, his favorite thing to do is argue, he’s just practicing on here in between episodes of Perry Mason!

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20 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Talking utter crap now Bailey.  He played centre half in the 2000 fa cup final.... id say that's a capable level for a 19/20 year old. Made his debut in 98, played near 70 games up til that stage.... With Southgate band Ugo

Southgate rated him as the best young centre half he had seen.  Made his England debut at left back.... Alan Wright told me himself he had everything bar pace but didn't need it - was the best player at villa even before he went to midfield. 

We could go into the realm of James milner and discuss his someone can play attacking mid, centre mid, right wing, fight back, defensive mid to a ridiculous level... Id sooner leave it at Barry. 

 

 

Do you have the evidence to back how many games he played at centre half? I took mine off transfermarkt? I'm more than happy to take it back if its bollocks. FWIW lots of players have played in the FA Cup final, its doesn't make them good players at that position. 

You keep missing the point Haf, I'm not arguing against players playing in different positions. I will repeat it, and I know most of you wish I wouldn't, but there are not many examples of top centre halves then going on to play as a top midfielder. 

There are countless of examples of players moving into other positions and also of players moving from midfield into the centre back position, but very few the other way. The question is why is that the case? Are top centre backs more important than top midfielders or is there a different reason?

Actuallly don't bother, I'd love to hear another ex-pro quote that misses the point... If you take requests, can I have one about Lee Osman, he could play anywhere in midfield? ;)

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3 hours ago, Bailey said:

Do you have the evidence to back how many games he played at centre half? I took mine off transfermarkt? I'm more than happy to take it back if its bollocks. FWIW lots of players have played in the FA Cup final, its doesn't make them good players at that position. 

You keep missing the point Haf, I'm not arguing against players playing in different positions. I will repeat it, and I know most of you wish I wouldn't, but there are not many examples of top centre halves then going on to play as a top midfielder. 

There are countless of examples of players moving into other positions and also of players moving from midfield into the centre back position, but very few the other way. The question is why is that the case? Are top centre backs more important than top midfielders or is there a different reason?

Actuallly don't bother, I'd love to hear another ex-pro quote that misses the point... If you take requests, can I have one about Lee Osman, he could play anywhere in midfield? ;)

Don't be getting touchy bailey.  Just to clarify in case Google isn't helping you...  Players who are intended as defenders or have hybrid potential will start in midfield:- 

1. Cos they have a line behind to cover any mistakes, they aren't the last line.  often used as full back instead of centreback.  Positional sense is at a premium at centre half.  Centre mid gives experience. 

2. If they have the qualities to play both positions, chances are they will excel in the first position and be used repeatedly 

3. Centre halves cover the least distance of any outfield players and least sprints which is why players who have slowed down/got old. Move there.  The average retirement age of a centre half is a fair bit older than a midfielder.

But I'm sure you knew all this when deflecting your statement that you don't get players who are top class at both midfield and defence..... Lothar says Hiya 

 

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14 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Don't be getting touchy bailey.  Just to clarify in case Google isn't helping you...  Players who are intended as defenders or have hybrid potential will start in midfield:- 

1. Cos they have a line behind to cover any mistakes, they aren't the last line.  often used as full back instead of centreback.  Positional sense is at a premium at centre half.  Centre mid gives experience. 

2. If they have the qualities to play both positions, chances are they will excel in the first position and be used repeatedly 

3. Centre halves cover the least distance of any outfield players and least sprints which is why players who have slowed down/got old. Move there.  The average retirement age of a centre half is a fair bit older than a midfielder.

But I'm sure you knew all this when deflecting your statement that you don't get players who are top class at both midfield and defence..... Lothar says Hiya 

 

I thought it came across a bit bitchy so that's why I put the smiley in the hope that it came across a bit more lighthearted!

I think point 1 is a fair one but again it wouldn't explain why they then don't go back into midfield a little later in their career. The stronger likelihood is, in my opinion, that they are simply a better centre half and are only used in midfield to get experience and not because they are very good in that position.

In respect of point 2, the players you have mentioned have shown they can be moved around repeatedly. Why wouldn't the same happen with centre backs who are equally as good in midfield? It happens for odd games but its very rare.

I agree completely with point 3 in general but it wouldn't stop a younger or prime player playing in both positions.

My point still remains. The point was, if a centre back is being talked about as being as good in midfield, its either very unlikely that he is,  or in my opinion, it suggests an issue with his game at this stage of his career. Plenty of players start in midfield and then move back but very few move the other way. Barry is a good example.

I thought Ledley King was another good example but having read around a bit more I found this:

Spurs legend Ledley King has shared insight into the moment he found his best position, in an interview on the club’s official website.

The 35-year old became renowned for his qualities as a central defender but has revealed it took until Euro 2004 for him to fully realise the position and formation that suited him best.

“I was quite inexperienced at that time… I’d come off the back of the 2003-04 season playing in midfield but in the first game of the tournament I played against France in a flat back four which, now I’ve looked back, I realise I’d never really done up until that game,” said King.

“Before that I’d played in a back three, in midfield, all over the place really, but never in a back four….That was when I realised ‘this defending is alright!’ and I enjoyed it.”

I also admit that I think the transfermarkt stats are bulls**t!

3 hours ago, StevO said:

Stopped being for the thinking Evertonian a long time ago, we just haven’t thought of a new strap line yet. 

😂

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not sure what he was doing for the offside goal at the end. Mane was in acres of space inside the penalty box and he let him wander into that space. Thought it was a case of ball watching. 

I'm certainly not going to judge him on what happened today because that was a tall order for him but I didnt see him do anything of note either. 

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37 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I'm not sure what he was doing for the offside goal at the end. Mane was in acres of space inside the penalty box and he let him wander into that space. Thought it was a case of ball watching. 

I'm certainly not going to judge him on what happened today because that was a tall order for him but I didnt see him do anything of note either. 

I think you can see a little bit of his attributes. Couple good blocks, willingness to play football and get up the field. Obviously about the hardest spot ever for a debut coming off the bench to play out of position vs Liverpool. Excited to see him develop over the next season or two 

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48 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I'm not sure what he was doing for the offside goal at the end. Mane was in acres of space inside the penalty box and he let him wander into that space. Thought it was a case of ball watching. 

I'm certainly not going to judge him on what happened today because that was a tall order for him but I didnt see him do anything of note either. 

We should give him a bit of slack here. Makes his debut against arguably the most dangerous forward in the league whilst playing out of position. The lad done extremely well! 

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2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

With any luck Mina is jettisoned out of the team. One good game last time out doesn't make up for his multitude of poor games like today.

That back healed lazy/flashy ‘clearance’ he did today seems like a bad habit - not the first time he’s done it today. It needs coaching out of him as I remember moaning about it in the past!!! I think he’s a good player and clearly a positive character in the dressing room but he does worry me in a John Stones (who I really like as a player still) type way!

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8 minutes ago, c1982 said:

That back healed lazy/flashy ‘clearance’ he did today seems like a bad habit - not the first time he’s done it today. It needs coaching out of him as I remember moaning about it in the past!!! I think he’s a good player and clearly a positive character in the dressing room but he does worry me in a John Stones (who I really like as a player still) type way!

He’s got the Joseph Yobo’s about him. 

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3 hours ago, Finn balor said:

Don’t see it as Mina being flashy he was running the other way and the ball came across and he tried to get something on it. It just fell to salah who buried it. Godfrey was good today. Couple of good blocks. Good on the ball. Didn’t look out of place at all 

I probably wouldn’t necessarily but it’s not the first time he’s done it - maybe the first he’s been punished but it’s definitely something to work on e.g body shape and use his left foot!!!

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6 hours ago, c1982 said:

He’s better in midfield supposedly.

It’s not all about you Haf...

On 01/10/2020 at 20:23, c1982 said:

Read a couple of bits saying they expect him to eventually play as a defensive midfielder. Good age, athletic and versatile - ticks a few boxes for me... biggest tick is that it sounds like Ancelotti is pushing this one.

Hence my comment!

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2 minutes ago, c1982 said:

Kick it out for a corner?

He is running into the box, the ball is behind him and to the side, and there is a Liverpool player in the box. He makes one slip, and its an own goal or he presents it to the Liverpool player.

He got the ball out of the danger area, but unfortunately it went to a certain Mo Salah. 

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1 hour ago, c1982 said:

I probably wouldn’t necessarily but it’s not the first time he’s done it - maybe the first he’s been punished but it’s definitely something to work on e.g body shape and use his left foot!!!

This fully...Mina has a Rick in him each game. This trait of his needs to be ironed out in training. He simply cant keep doing this. It's happened in a few games now. Just put you foot through the ball - no flicky shit in our own box!!!!!!!

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Mina could possibly have swung his left foot at it, but he didn’t. In such speed of play you have to make a snap decision, it was part poor, part unlucky. 
If it falls to anyone other than Salah it’s probably not a goal. 
 

Im more concerned how easy it was for them to score the first. 

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22 minutes ago, StevO said:

Mina could possibly have swung his left foot at it, but he didn’t. In such speed of play you have to make a snap decision, it was part poor, part unlucky. 
If it falls to anyone other than Salah it’s probably not a goal. 
 

Im more concerned how easy it was for them to score the first. 

They came at us at 100 miles an hour, we just were not ready.

 

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8 hours ago, London Blue said:

Just seen it again on MOTD, and there was nothing else he could do, just unlucky it went to Salah. I thought he played well apart from that.

He didn’t look to be stretching at all? Couldn’t he have just swing his leg at it and cleared it? 
He just seemed to prod it for me. Lazy attempt at best. I expect that kind of thing from myself at 47 haha.

Though i would be on the floor holding my groin seconds later 😂

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