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Aurelio Buta


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4 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

where have i said it trumps anything?  i asked a question with a specific parameter that you either disregarded or unintentionally missed.  not a big deal.  when i say that you give a straw man as a retort.

Oh my lord you've joined the "straw man" defence brigade? I'm out of here (because I don't really understand the concept, other than having the the feeling that it's people with a superiority complex talking bollocks😂).

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1 minute ago, MikeO said:

Oh my lord you've joined the "straw man" defence brigade? I'm out of here (because I don't really understand the concept, other than having the the feeling that it's people with a superiority complex talking bollocks😂).

wikipedia

 

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"

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2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

wikipedia

 

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"

Blah blah blah, as far as I can see it's normally the accuser rather than the accused that is grasping at straws, hence the simplistic response.

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1 minute ago, Bailey said:

I get your point, but there is also no point clogging the squad up with £1m, £3m etc players who aren't good enough. 

If he is good enough, buy him. If he isn't, then don't. Don't just buy players because they are cheap or you end up like we did last season in not trusting the backups like Niels and Kenny and playing centre backs at full back.

I would like to think it's a given that those who are deciding on the 'cheaper' players and not just doing it because they are simply cheap, but will actually fill an identified gap in the squad.

These is also the reality - we need better cover at RB and £3m budget appears to be around the money we might have available.  So it's the market we are in this summer.

At £3m, the worst you can lose is £3m. We have recently been losing in excess of tens of millions on player after player this past few seasons. Like I said not a transfer I would worry about - modest fee and modest wages.

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53 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

where have i said it trumps anything?  i asked a question with a specific parameter that you either disregarded or unintentionally missed.  not a big deal.  when i say that you give a straw man as a retort.

"Recent history" is not remotely specific, and is completely subjective. 10 years ago for a guy who's supported the club longer than you've been alive is recent history. 10 years may seem like a long time to someone who only discovered and fell in love with the game 10 or so years ago. So absolutely no straw man bullshit going on, and if there is it's you using one because you're using your non-specific criteria (leagues aside, you did clarify that part) as fact for a debate :lol:

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12 minutes ago, Matt said:

"Recent history" is not remotely specific, and is completely subjective. 10 years ago for a guy who's supported the club longer than you've been alive is recent history. 10 years may seem like a long time to someone who only discovered and fell in love with the game 10 or so years ago. So absolutely no straw man bullshit going on, and if there is it's you using one because you're using your non-specific criteria (leagues aside, you did clarify that part) as fact for a debate :lol:

Fight! Fight! Fight! 

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38 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

I would like to think it's a given that those who are deciding on the 'cheaper' players and not just doing it because they are simply cheap, but will actually fill an identified gap in the squad.

These is also the reality - we need better cover at RB and £3m budget appears to be around the money we might have available.  So it's the market we are in this summer.

At £3m, the worst you can lose is £3m. We have recently been losing in excess of tens of millions on player after player this past few seasons. Like I said not a transfer I would worry about - modest fee and modest wages.

We’re not after cover here though, we’re after a starter. Coleman needs replacing now (well, three years ago to be honest), so I would hope this fella is that or it’s just wasting £3m or whatever the fee is. 

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23 minutes ago, Matt said:

I'm not meaning or wanting to start a fight :lol: 

If MJB can define what recent history is, then people know what timeframe to look for examples in. 

I’m just teasing. It’s true that the bargain options don’t usually work out but that’s why they are bargain options. Every once in awhile you find a Seamus. 

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6 minutes ago, SpartyBlue said:

I’m just teasing. It’s true that the bargain options don’t usually work out but that’s why they are bargain options. Every once in awhile you find a Seamus. 

Oh I know mate, but then I read how I wrote my post and see what you mean; it's a bit catty isn't it!

I'd also challenge the use of bargain, because that for me isn't necessarily value based. Well, of course it is... it's midnight... By that I mean, Godfrey is a bargain in my eyes considering his talent and potential, but he wasn't cheap. Bargain is a relative term for me. 

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51 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

We’re not after cover here though, we’re after a starter. Coleman needs replacing now (well, three years ago to be honest), so I would hope this fella is that or it’s just wasting £3m or whatever the fee is. 

That's fair enough, but it's obvious we have no funds at the moment to spend on a proven 'starter'. Less rough say between a free transfer and say around £3m.

What do you do? Hope Coleman is fit and firing all season, not bother with RB cover and just use CB's again, or simply hope Jonjo develops in to an attacking RB, or use the budget you have as best you can?

If money was no object then good chance Dumfries would already be here.

Club are trying to sell dispendable players to raise funds, but looks like no takers. 

With only loose change in our pockets, how do you get a bona fida 'starting' RB without taking a bit of a punt at the cheaper end of the market?

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1 minute ago, RuffRob said:

That's fair enough, but it's obvious we have no funds at the moment to spend on a proven 'starter'. Less rough say between a free transfer and say around £3m.

What do you do? Hope Coleman is fit and firing all season, not bother with RB cover and just use CB's again, or simply hope Jonjo develops in to an attacking RB, or use the budget you have as best you can?

If money was no object then good chance Dumfries would already be here.

Club are trying to sell dispendable players to raise funds, but looks like no takers. 

With only loose change in our pockets, how do you get a bona fida 'starting' RB without taking a bit of a punt at the cheaper end of the market?

I’m saying he’s being signed as a starter or it’s pointless.

Coleman will not play a lot, and even when he does play his good games are far less frequent, so if this fella isn’t good enough to replace him then we shouldn’t be signing him at all. It’s that simple really.

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at 24 you can't say he's "one for the future", he might not be ready to walk straight into the team but at that age he should be ready to start playing once he finds his feet in the squad (yes I know some players have come through successfully at later ages).

Only played 15 games for Antwerp and Benfica B before that so not a lot of first team experience for his age though he has started the season already for Atwerp this season.

Attack wise his brief stats don't suggest he's been doing much more than Coleman.

20/21 season him and Coleman played pretty much the same amount - 1600 minutes

Buta - 4 assists, 0.8 key passes per game, 25 passes per game (80% success), 0.7 crosses per game, 0.5 dribbles per game

Coleman - 3 Assists, 0.8 key passes per game, 26 passes per game (82% success), 0.4 crosses per game, 0.8 dribbles per game

Defensively they look pretty similar though Buta commits more fouls

Buta - 1.2 tackles, 0.6 interceptions, 1 foul, 0.6 clearances, dribbled past 0.3

Coleman - 1.6 tackles, 0.5 interceptions, 0.5 fouls, 1.3 clearences, dribbled past 0.4

By contrast this is Digne

1.5 key passes per game, 42 passes per game (77% success), 1.5 crosses, 0.6 dribbles

2.1 tackles, 1 interception, 1.1 fouls, 2.4 clearences and 0.8 dribbled past

I know these stats don't tell a full picture, especially when you are looking at players in different teams and different leagues but it's interesting to compare.  This season after 3 games Buta has so far had more passes, twice the number of key passes and 2 assists though 3 games isn't much to go on!

Seems like we don't have much money to throw at getting players so if they think he can be a replacement right back for us and do a job then hopefully they've got it right and he can at least step up for a while.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, FairWooney said:

at 24 you can't say he's "one for the future", he might not be ready to walk straight into the team but at that age he should be ready to start playing once he finds his feet in the squad (yes I know some players have come through successfully at later ages).

Only played 15 games for Antwerp and Benfica B before that so not a lot of first team experience for his age though he has started the season already for Atwerp this season.

Attack wise his brief stats don't suggest he's been doing much more than Coleman.

20/21 season him and Coleman played pretty much the same amount - 1600 minutes

Buta - 4 assists, 0.8 key passes per game, 25 passes per game (80% success), 0.7 crosses per game, 0.5 dribbles per game

Coleman - 3 Assists, 0.8 key passes per game, 26 passes per game (82% success), 0.4 crosses per game, 0.8 dribbles per game

Defensively they look pretty similar though Buta commits more fouls

Buta - 1.2 tackles, 0.6 interceptions, 1 foul, 0.6 clearances, dribbled past 0.3

Coleman - 1.6 tackles, 0.5 interceptions, 0.5 fouls, 1.3 clearences, dribbled past 0.4

By contrast this is Digne

1.5 key passes per game, 42 passes per game (77% success), 1.5 crosses, 0.6 dribbles

2.1 tackles, 1 interception, 1.1 fouls, 2.4 clearences and 0.8 dribbled past

I know these stats don't tell a full picture, especially when you are looking at players in different teams and different leagues but it's interesting to compare.  This season after 3 games Buta has so far had more passes, twice the number of key passes and 2 assists though 3 games isn't much to go on!

Seems like we don't have much money to throw at getting players so if they think he can be a replacement right back for us and do a job then hopefully they've got it right and he can at least step up for a while.

 

 

 

 

 

Great Post, as you say definitely worth a go with this player.

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59 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Aarons at Norwich, he’s the one I’ve wanted all summer

but there is no money to buy him, so at the moment we can want whatever we like, we are not going to get it unless somebody who can bring in a decent transfer fee goes out the door!!

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14 hours ago, RuffRob said:

That's fair enough, but it's obvious we have no funds at the moment to spend on a proven 'starter'. Less rough say between a free transfer and say around £3m.

What do you do? Hope Coleman is fit and firing all season, not bother with RB cover and just use CB's again, or simply hope Jonjo develops in to an attacking RB, or use the budget you have as best you can?

If money was no object then good chance Dumfries would already be here.

Club are trying to sell dispendable players to raise funds, but looks like no takers. 

With only loose change in our pockets, how do you get a bona fida 'starting' RB without taking a bit of a punt at the cheaper end of the market?

There is no way that we can only afford £3million. From an accounting point of view, the transfer fee is split across the number of years of the contract so if we can only afford £3million, that is the equivalent of £1million per year plus wages over a 3 year contract. It seems fairly clear from the reports that Dumfries fancies Inter more than us and it is probably in the pipeline and just waiting for Inter's other deals to go through.

I have no problem with us buying cheaply, in fact I love the idea, but it is important that they are good enough to start because otherwise we are going to have problems.

14 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I’m saying he’s being signed as a starter or it’s pointless.

Coleman will not play a lot, and even when he does play his good games are far less frequent, so if this fella isn’t good enough to replace him then we shouldn’t be signing him at all. It’s that simple really.

This.

 

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1 hour ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Didn't they want upwards of £25m for him? 

you get what you pay for, he can start immediately and is up to speed in the league.  players were released on decent wages, we've gotten rid of others, should be enough for a signing like that.  not to mention kean will be going i reckon, and potentially (iwobi?  please, pretty please) others as well.  also screw FFP, we aren't qualifying for europe this year anyways.

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17 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

There is no way that we can only afford £3million. From an accounting point of view, the transfer fee is split across the number of years of the contract so if we can only afford £3million, that is the equivalent of £1million per year plus wages over a 3 year contract. It seems fairly clear from the reports that Dumfries fancies Inter more than us and it is probably in the pipeline and just waiting for Inter's other deals to go through.

I have no problem with us buying cheaply, in fact I love the idea, but it is important that they are good enough to start because otherwise we are going to have problems.

 

Its the wages, our wage bill is too high.

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4 hours ago, London Blue said:

Its the wages, our wage bill is too high.

Whilst I get that means we can't afford extortionate wages, if we can't afford the wages of a relatively modest player who barely anyone had heard of until this summer we really are in trouble. 

I would also be a little disappointed if the wages were that desperate that we chose to sign two players in the same position, especially as I imagine Townsend in particular is on as much as or more than Dumfries would have been. 

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44 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Whilst I get that means we can't afford extortionate wages, if we can't afford the wages of a relatively modest player who barely anyone had heard of until this summer we really are in trouble. 

I would also be a little disappointed if the wages were that desperate that we chose to sign two players in the same position, especially as I imagine Townsend in particular is on as much as or more than Dumfries would have been. 

I think we are waiting to shift James, Gomes and Delph who are all on around 100K plus a week, which is about £15 million a year in wages.  Not to mention players like Cenk who are on good wages but will never play for us, and the senior pros. We need to shift this lot, then we will know who we can sign. 

Transfer payments can be split over years, but added to wages it mounts up, so we have to make room before we can buy. Players like Buta are, I imagine, our plan B if we cant sell players which we are having to look to as time is running out.

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