Ukraine/Russian Conflict

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Deserve?! Steve's point is completely accurate in assessment.

Not a chance no country in a Europe or the world should be lead by a dictator or fear for their life’s if they try to exercise freedom of speech and call for democracy in their country, you tell me how he’s right? tell why Russians shouldn’t have democracy? tell my why Russians struggle with democracy? tell me why they should be governed by a strong man approach and not by freedom’s of democracy? 
Deserve is exactly how it sounds when he accuses the people of Russia of having some sort of culture that means they can’t be trusted with democracy, so you get the other option which is his strong man rule. 

[Formby]

So Biden isn't sure if Russian tanks steamrolling into Ukraine constitutes an invasion? 

Has Putin invaded Ukraine? The White House isn’t sure (telegraph.co.uk)

[Formby]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

Deserve?! Steve's point is completely accurate in assessment.

I would contest it. Russia went from authoritarian monarchy to brutal dictatorship after brutal dictatorship, ravaged by revolutions and war. Democracy has had no chance to flower there. It took the 'West' as he terms it centuries to get to grips with democracy - in a sense, we stil are. To say the Russians have a different culture that lends itself to tryanny is pretty offensive to Russians. Would he say it about an African country? There are, indeed, other forms of government and rule. Steve and you may have ideas about what this is but to imagine a whole people are locked into one way of thinking in perpetuity is fanciful, and to imagine that there aren't millions of Russians who would welcome freedom and democracy (if indeed you equate the two), more so.      

[MikeO]

And the most read story on the BBC is....

...good to see the great British public have their priorities sorted

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Not a chance no country in a Europe or the world should be lead by a dictator or fear for their life’s if they try to exercise freedom of speech and call for democracy in their country, you tell me how he’s right? tell why Russians shouldn’t have democracy? tell my why Russians struggle with democracy? tell me why they should be governed by a strong man approach and not by freedom’s of democracy? 
Deserve is exactly how it sounds when he accuses the people of Russia of having some sort of culture that means they can’t be trusted with democracy, so you get the other option which is his strong man rule. 

Because historically he is correct. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true, and he has in no way said they deserve a dictator or don't deserve democracy in any shape or form. Its an accurate observation based on history. Anything else you see there is you reading into things that aren't there. 

 

2 hours ago, Formby said:

I would contest it. Russia went from authoritarian monarchy to brutal dictatorship after brutal dictatorship, ravaged by revolutions and war. Democracy has had no chance to flower there. It took the 'West' as he terms it centuries to get to grips with democracy - in a sence, we stil are. To say the Russians have a different culture that lends itself to tryanny is pretty offensive to Russians. Would he say it about an African country? There are, indeed, other forms of government and rule. Steve and you may have ideas about what this is but to imagine a whole people are locked into one way of thinking in perpetuity is fanciful, and to imagine that there aren't millions of Russians who would welcome freedom and democracy (if indeed you equate the two), more so.      

No idea why Russia has been this way but it has been. Lenin, Stalin, Putin... there's a trend. Not saying its a conscious decision but it's certainly a trend. Knowing Steve, and to just hammer the point home, he's just observing and I agree with his observations.

The Tsars were cunts, those in charge that followed didn't exactly change anything but they did have followings that kept them in power (whether that be the population believing in the leader like Lenin initially or by those who help beat the population into submission like with Stalin/Putin). 

 

[Matt]

Palfy, go watch these. I think you enjoyed the other one I shared about Napoleon, this is Russian history in a nutshell. Obviously it's very high level but the fundamental developments are accurate to history:

 

 

 

[Formby]

27 minutes ago, Matt said:

No idea why Russia has been this way but it has been. Lenin, Stalin, Putin... there's a trend. Not saying its a conscious decision but it's certainly a trend. Knowing Steve, and to just hammer the point home, he's just observing and I agree with his observations.

 

That's absolutely fine. I won't park my tanks on the borders of Matt land and Steve land and demand you change your mind! I do think Steve's point is very questionable, though. As he is a very intelligent poster, I am sure he can point out why this is not the case.

[Matt]

41 minutes ago, Formby said:

That's absolutely fine. I won't park my tanks on the borders of Matt land and Steve land and demand you change your mind! I do think Steve's point is very questionable, though. As he is a very intelligent poster, I am sure he can point out why this is not the case.

Maybe he's coming across as generalising a nation but a little context is important here. Historically Russia as a country has had 1 oppressing leader after another. That's all he's meant, and how that leader gets into power, whether the Tsars or following a movement backed by "the people", its still true.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Palfy, go watch these. I think you enjoyed the other one I shared about Napoleon, this is Russian history in a nutshell. Obviously it's very high level but the fundamental developments are accurate to history:

 

 

 

Just because Russia had a revolution doesn’t mean that the people have a culture where democracy doesn’t work, if we are going to use that as a yard stick then history will say many countries have a culture why democracy doesn’t work and they only understand the big stick approach, but we have seen that not to be true when the people have had the opportunity live in a democracy. Spain,  Germany, Japan using your argument shouldn’t be capable of living in a Democracy, they have all lived in a culture of war and dictatorship after the Russian revolution but when they were released from those shackles the citizens proved they could prosper and run model societies in the name of democracy, Russians haven’t had that opportunity for over a hundred years but that doesn’t mean they are culturally incapable of living in a democracy so there for the man with the big stick is the best way forward for Russians. Personally I think that sort of believe is why we still have dictators like Putin in power you are in someways condoning how they run there countries and whilst people hold them beliefs people like Putin will always exist, and it’s nothing to do with culture the people are the culture of any country. 

[Palfy]

15 hours ago, Palfy said:

The truth is that different cultures lend themselves to different forms, and Russia seems to struggle with democracy. Their culture demands a strong man approach

Honestly what have I miss understood from what was written there

[Matt]

More light hearted but historically accurate history

 

 

 

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Honestly what have I miss understood from what was written there

He says Russia, not Russians for a start and you started off being appalled at how he generalised a people when he was referring to the historical facts of a country. 

I'll let Steve try to explain his post better, I don't know how else to simplify my understanding of it any better. 

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Just because Russia had a revolution doesn’t mean that the people have a culture where democracy doesn’t work, if we are going to use that as a yard stick then history will say many countries have a culture why democracy doesn’t work and they only understand the big stick approach, but we have seen that not to be true when the people have had the opportunity live in a democracy. Spain,  Germany, Japan using your argument shouldn’t be capable of living in a Democracy, they have all lived in a culture of war and dictatorship after the Russian revolution but when they were released from those shackles the citizens proved they could prosper and run model societies in the name of democracy, Russians haven’t had that opportunity for over a hundred years but that doesn’t mean they are culturally incapable of living in a democracy so there for the man with the big stick is the best way forward for Russians. Personally I think that sort of believe is why we still have dictators like Putin in power you are in someways condoning how they run there countries and whilst people hold them beliefs people like Putin will always exist, and it’s nothing to do with culture the people are the culture of any country. 

My argument?! Honestly don't have the energy to continually correct you. 

Edit: the down vote is for suggesting I condone anything like that. For the most part I agree with the post. 

[MikeO]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Spain,  Germany, Japan using your argument shouldn’t be capable of living in a Democracy, they have all lived in a culture of war and dictatorship after the Russian revolution but when they were released from those shackles the citizens proved they could prosper and run model societies in the name of democracy, Russians haven’t had that opportunity for over a hundred years....

Russians have never had that opportunity in their history....ever, not just in the last hundred years.

[Formby]

24 minutes ago, Matt said:

He says Russia, not Russians for a start and you started off being appalled at how he generalised a people when he was referring to the historical facts of a country. 

I'll let Steve try to explain his post better, I don't know how else to simplify my understanding of it any better. 

Steve actually says 'their culture' so this does seem to suggest he was referring to the Russian people. I accept this may have been a mistake, though.  

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, Formby said:

Steve actually says 'their culture' so this does seem to suggest he was referring to the Russian people. I accept this may have been a mistake, though.  

I put that down to poor choice of words too

[Matt]

And so it begins. Putin has gone full on Hitler and lied through his teeth to the world. It started at Crimea and I remember posting at the time that was the start of WW3, just took a little longer than expected. 

Also, anyone seen how resource rich Ukraine is? Surprised me. 

[Formby]

32 minutes ago, Matt said:

And so it begins. Putin has gone full on Hitler and lied through his teeth to the world. It started at Crimea and I remember posting at the time that was the start of WW3, just took a little longer than expected. 

Also, anyone seen how resource rich Ukraine is? Surprised me. 

Yes, it was the reason Germany invaded Russia in WWII. If they'd taken the Caucusus for the oil fields, and left it at that, they would have won the war.

The Baltic states will be worried now, maybe even Poland.

Sanctions aren't going to do anything. China will still be trading with Russia, and secretly applauding. 

European military response - utterly ineffectual.

US military response - they've said they're not going to put boots on the ground so also utterly ineffectual.

[Palfy]

Let’s not worry about it Biden’s on it he’s praying for everyone in the Ukraine, what a strong leader for the west he is proving to be. 

[Hafnia]

 

unreal..... they have a strong history for this.  When Maradona died there were red noses trying to claim him.......

[Formby]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Let’s not worry about it Biden’s on it he’s praying for everyone in the Ukraine, what a strong leader for the west he is proving to be. 

Yup, Joe's on it. Ukraine can rest easy. Sigh.... 

BRIEFING ROOM

Statement by President Biden on Russia’s Unprovoked and Unjustified Attack on Ukraine

FEBRUARY 23, 2022•STATEMENTS AND RELEASES

The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces. President Putin has chosen a premeditated war that will bring a catastrophic loss of life and human suffering. Russia alone is responsible for the death and destruction this attack will bring, and the United States and its Allies and partners will respond in a united and decisive way. The world will hold Russia accountable.

I will be monitoring the situation from the White House this evening and will continue to get regular updates from my national security team. Tomorrow, I will meet with my G7 counterparts in the morning and then speak to the American people to announce the further consequences the United States and our Allies and partners will impose on Russia for this needless act of aggression against Ukraine and global peace and security. We will also coordinate with our NATO Allies to ensure a strong, united response that deters any aggression against the Alliance. Tonight, Jill and I are praying for the brave and proud people of Ukraine.

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Let’s not worry about it Biden’s on it he’s praying for everyone in the Ukraine, what a strong leader for the west he is proving to be. 

So is Boris. 

But, a face to face fight was never going to happen. The plan will be to bankrupt Russia again. This is the only real course of short term action without WW3 starting

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

unreal..... they have a strong history for this.  When Maradona died there were red noses trying to claim him.......

Don't think it's the time to criticise any form of solidarity to be honest. The fact his opinion reaches and potentially influences millions is exactly the right thing to do. 

[Palfy]

24 minutes ago, Matt said:

So is Boris. 

But, a face to face fight was never going to happen. The plan will be to bankrupt Russia again. This is the only real course of short term action without WW3 starting

Don’t disagree but where are the sanctions to end all sanctions they’ve been saying since November that this attack was going to happen, so every sanction should have been known and implemented at 04:00 not still being talked about 10 hours later, it’s weakness and Putin is feeding off it he has threatened the west that if anyone interferes with Russia they will In not so many words they will face a nuclear threat, and if we backdown he will go through one country to the next, WW3 will start if he is allowed to carry on. 

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Don’t disagree but where are the sanctions to end all sanctions they’ve been saying since November that this attack was going to happen, so every sanction should have been known and implemented at 04:00 not still being talked about 10 hours later, it’s weakness and Putin is feeding off it he has threatened the west that if anyone interferes with Russia they will In not so many words they will face a nuclear threat, and if we backdown he will go through one country to the next, WW3 will start if he is allowed to carry on. 

I agree. Thing is if you prepare to sanction a lunatic well in advance and they find out, it will encourage them to act even more irrationally or overreact.

I do not like or agree with the approach, but I understand why it is moving so slow. Personally, I would've played my big card immediately and cut them off from SWIFT, freeze all imports etc. Trouble is, if you attack an economy it's the people will suffer from such actions rather than those fighting / organising the fights. Those organising the fights have more than enough for themselves and don't start fights without thinking they've got a surplus that will last them. 

[Cornish Steve]

On 20/02/2022 at 14:59, Cornish Steve said:

Four years ago, Putin saw an opportunity to split NATO by encouraging President Trump to threaten funding, question NATO's value, and adopt a caustic attitude toward the leaders of NATO countries. If this situation with Ukraine had happened back then, NATO might have disintegrated as an effective force. In less than 18 months, President Biden has reversed that trend. I suspect that Putin thought the cracks still existed, but instead he's facing a united NATO. In fact, his actions has led to the complete opposite result than he anticipated: America and others are calling his bluff. What is he going to do now?

This is very opposite of appeasement. The West has learned its lesson. I'm yet to be convinced that America has learned its lesson about the folly of isolationism, but all credit to a president that's not waiting to find out but is taking the lead. I only hope that most Americans will follow - despite the predictable harping we're already hearing from Trumpists.

Yesterday, Donald Trump called Vladimir Putin a genius and suggested America should send a "peace-keeping" force to its southern border with Mexico. Thank God this idiot is no longer US president. He would have split NATO asunder and Russian troops would be marching into Ukraine, Moldova, and the Baltic states.

[Palfy]

Boris has set out Britain’s sanctions they don’t go far enough, so I will assume the rest of the G7 will be the same we should be taking away there use of the SWIFT banking system now not threatening to do so in the future, hit him and his Russian mafia where it will hurt the most immediately. 

[Matt]

9 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Boris has set out Britain’s sanctions they don’t go far enough, so I will assume the rest of the G7 will be the same we should be taking away there use of the SWIFT banking system now not threatening to do so in the future, hit him and his Russian mafia where it will hurt the most immediately. 

They do seem laughable really. but it's still ramping up. I think he's doing this so he can say "UK helped first" knowing that the EU and US are going to bring in their own. Plus sanctions hit our economy too, so by ramping up he's protecting the UK.  

SWIFT is a big deal. Personally I wish they'd just play that card but there's global implications of it so needs global support. That they've said it's not impossible is a good sign at least.

[Cornish Steve]

This is not a time for appeasement/acceptance. Ukraine is not a NATO member, so it's inappropriate to respond militarily; however, in my opinion, we should use every non-military option available and now.

[Hafnia]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Don't think it's the time to criticise any form of solidarity to be honest. The fact his opinion reaches and potentially influences millions is exactly the right thing to do. 

Yeah probably right on reflection- certainly on this matter. 

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

They do seem laughable really. but it's still ramping up. I think he's doing this so he can say "UK helped first" knowing that the EU and US are going to bring in their own. Plus sanctions hit our economy too, so by ramping up he's protecting the UK.  

SWIFT is a big deal. Personally I wish they'd just play that card but there's global implications of it so needs global support. That they've said it's not impossible is a good sign at least.

The excuse for appeasement is always that it hurts the nation to do otherwise. Not freezing SWIFT access would, in the current circumstances, be appeasement. Either we accept an element of pain now or we'll be forced to accept greater pain in the future.

[Sir McGiven]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

They do seem laughable really. but it's still ramping up. I think he's doing this so he can say "UK helped first" knowing that the EU and US are going to bring in their own. Plus sanctions hit our economy too, so by ramping up he's protecting the UK.  

SWIFT is a big deal. Personally I wish they'd just play that card but there's global implications of it so needs global support. That they've said it's not impossible is a good sign at least.

That decision comes with huge technical problems and also damages every country which are in the SWIFT system. Removing Russians from the SWIFT system has been on the table before as well but never been processed because of the same reason.

On the other hand, I used to live in Donetsk and Luhansk 11 years ago. Donetsk used to be one of their biggest cities in whole country, not just in Donbass area. A big "business man" Rinat Akhmedov used to own half of the city by himself, then he is kind of eliminated by Russians. Luhansk on the other hand was a small country-side-like city of Ukraine. I have spent a year and half of my life over there. I have had good friends, collected good memories back in my time there. Many of my Ukrainian friends were killed during the first conflict. The rest who were on Ukrainian side had to flee.

Both cities, though, were most like Russian cities even back then I must say. Except the governmental stuff, people used to talk and write in Russian. They used to cross borders many times in a day. People were hanging Russian flags onto their cars instead of Ukrainian flag. In the western side of the country though, especially in Kiev, if you were talking in Russian you could get ignored by people immediately. I am not trying to justfiying madness of Putin, but more like trying to give an insight. Putin, on the other hand, I can bet he is jerking off to his Russian Imperial dreams at the moment...

What suprised me is that he really gone for it and bombed Kiev as I was thinking he is playing cool, getting what he wants without a hot conflict. He insane but do not forget, Ukraine is very important for Russia and EU were poking it for a long time already. Their north sea business are out-played by EU and NATO. Their one and only trade port on the north is covered in ice for 6 months every year. For Russia's naval trade traffic on the south, Black Sea is the last option and they do not want to give it away. That's why he mentioned historical NATO moments in his speech just before the invasion.

 

The very last time that I have seen Donbas area was 5 years ago. I was called and invited by the IFRC to the zone for a project they were trying to implement after the Russian invasion. I have seen the conflicted zones, mined areas, places I have lived and walked through... Everything was terrifying. 

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-osce-member-killed-mine-blast/28447060.html

Still remembering the people in this car. They were passing by through the road where we were distrubuting food and hygiene boxes, they sounded the horn, waved at us and about an hour later we've heard the news... They were innocent people, like me, my colleagues and affected people around that zone and died for nothing because of a meaningless war.

 

I don't see a bright future for Ukraine. They were always puppet of Putin's Russia. He never let a true strong opponent lead Ukraine. He always micro managed that country, now he wants to claim it totally. A mad mad man. Modern day Hitler... I would love to see real actions against him globally. Not stupid, "we are with you", "we are deeply saddened", "stop the non-sense immediately mr. putin" kind of bullshit. Maybe it is not possible to really save the Ukraine anymore but that greed, it will never end. A couple of years later, he will do the same to Belarus, then another and another. 

[Cornish Steve]

My biggest concern right now is Russia's beeline toward Chernobyl. The only logical reasons for this are all very bad.

[RPG]

On 15/02/2022 at 03:56, Palfy said:

I’m not to concerned having heard today the Germans have offered to donate 500 helmets to help Ukrainian fight the Russians off, absolute piss takers that will be seen as show of weakness to the Russians when the rest of Europe should be standing strong and defiant and sending troops into the Ukraine in there tens of thousands as the Russians have done in Belarus. I’m convinced with Putin you have to fight fire with fire it’s the only sort of language he understands.  

Quote

 

The German (lack of) response is even worse than that. They refused overflight clearance to western aircraft ferrying defensive weapons systems to Ukraine.

[RPG]

17 hours ago, Palfy said:

Don’t disagree but where are the sanctions to end all sanctions they’ve been saying since November that this attack was going to happen, so every sanction should have been known and implemented at 04:00 not still being talked about 10 hours later, it’s weakness and Putin is feeding off it he has threatened the west that if anyone interferes with Russia they will In not so many words they will face a nuclear threat, and if we backdown he will go through one country to the next, WW3 will start if he is allowed to carry on. 

The problem with sanctions is that they cut two ways. Refuse to trade with Russian banks - no more Russian investment in UK as a simple example. I think Putin can now only be stopped with military methods and the longer we leave it, the more costly (in lives and dollars) it will be. I hope to God I am wrong but Putin is just laughing at sanctions while he sticks two fingers up at the west and continues slaughtering innocent people with his invasion of Ukraine.

Purely from a UK perspective, I would far rather fight Russia in Ukraine than in Poland or Latvia or Lithuania or Estonia or........?

[RPG]

15 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

This is not a time for appeasement/acceptance. Ukraine is not a NATO member, so it's inappropriate to respond militarily; however, in my opinion, we should use every non-military option available and now.

And if we do that and it doesn't work (it won't), what do we do then? What would we have left? It's a balance between hitting Putin hard now (and I agree we should have done more) while still leaving the threat of even more sanctions to come.

Personally, I think that however we manage economic sanctions, they won't work. Russia has built up massive gold reserves in recent years (and we all know what war does for the price of gold) and if the west is going to be of any practical use to Ukraine it will have to be on a military front.

Just a thought, but if 75% of Russian conventional forces are currently tied up with Ukraine, wouldn't now be a good time to test their remaining 25%? Not in an open NATO war but by supporting and providing aid to Ukrainian forces outside Ukraine.

[RPG]

NATO is obviously keeping a very close eye on matters at the moment. These are the NATO aircraft (that are happy to be seen) currently on radar. They include a B-52 with several refuellers, all sorts of AWAC support, fighters for defence and 'other' very capable aircraft.

 

 

[Palfy]

Germany Italy and Hungary holding up more crippling sanctions against the Russians, when this is over any country’s that never did what was required because they were more concerned about how this would impact on their own living standards and not the concerns of Ukraine and the rest of Eastern European State’s need to be brought to task and ostracised if necessary. It’s times like this when you know who your true allies are. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

The problem with sanctions is that they cut two ways. Refuse to trade with Russian banks - no more Russian investment in UK as a simple example. I think Putin can now only be stopped with military methods and the longer we leave it, the more costly (in lives and dollars) it will be. I hope to God I am wrong but Putin is just laughing at sanctions while he sticks two fingers up at the west and continues slaughtering innocent people with his invasion of Ukraine.

Purely from a UK perspective, I would far rather fight Russia in Ukraine than in Poland or Latvia or Lithuania or Estonia or........?

I agree this will ultimately end in Military action against Russia ( Putin ) from NATO, there will be weak countries i.e Germany and Italy who at the moment are giving Russia a free rein at the moment for their own economic gains who won’t contribute zilch. Trump was criticised for trying to break NATO but was Trump wrong, not at all he was saying every country in the alliance had a duty to commit 2% of it’s GDP to the union that was the agreement and wasn’t happening, Germany the richest country in Europe was not contributing any where near that, and was not investing in it’s own forces, I would go as far to say that this was because of their huge economic links with Russia, which made them sit on the fence, or they were told not to rock the boat either way the Germans are selling Ukraine and the rest Europe down the river because of their close links economically with Russia..

[RPG]

56 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree this will ultimately end in Military action against Russia ( Putin ) from NATO, there will be weak countries i.e Germany and Italy who at the moment are giving Russia a free rein at the moment for their own economic gains who won’t contribute zilch. Trump was criticised for trying to break NATO but was Trump wrong, not at all he was saying every country in the alliance had a duty to commit 2% of it’s GDP to the union that was the agreement and wasn’t happening, Germany the richest country in Europe was not contributing any where near that, and was not investing in it’s own forces, I would go as far to say that this was because of their huge economic links with Russia, which made them sit on the fence, or they were told not to rock the boat either way the Germans are selling Ukraine and the rest Europe down the river because of their close links economically with Russia..

A succinct and accurate synopsis I think, and fear.

[Palfy]

The amount of activity on the American airforce base in Fairford as definitely been ramping up in the last couple of days, with B52 bombers coming and going. 

[Haiku]

We all condemn Russian invasion and wish Putin die, but it is in the hands of NATO to decide whether it will be WW3 or not. I fully expect the whole madness to be over in a matter of weeks/month should NATO not interfere, as it happened in Georgia in 2008 by the way. Putin wants cut down West influence in neighboring countries and stop further NATO expansion. Ukraine potentially joining NATO would be a huge blow to Russia dominance in the region, so he couldn't let that happen. There are unlikely to be many civilian casualties should NATO stay away. Otherwise we are all doomed.

[Formby]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Germany Italy and Hungary holding up more crippling sanctions against the Russians, when this is over any country’s that never did what was required because they were more concerned about how this would impact on their own living standards and not the concerns of Ukraine and the rest of Eastern European State’s need to be brought to task and ostracised if necessary. It’s times like this when you know who your true allies are. 

How odd - the Triple Alliance from WWI. Hope that's not a sign of things top come!

[Palfy]

3 minutes ago, Formby said:

How odd - the Triple Alliance from WWI. Hope that's not a sign of things top come!

They’ve always been cunts mate sometimes you only see it when the chips are down. 

[Formby]

24 minutes ago, Haiku said:

We all condemn Russian invasion and wish Putin die, but it is in the hands of NATO to decide whether it will be WW3 or not. I fully expect the whole madness to be over in a matter of weeks/month should NATO not interfere, as it happened in Georgia in 2008 by the way. Putin wants cut down West influence in neighboring countries and stop further NATO expansion. Ukraine potentially joining NATO would be a huge blow to Russia dominance in the region, so he couldn't let that happen. There are unlikely to be many civilian casualties should NATO stay away. Otherwise we are all doomed.

I get your partisanship here but it is really in Putin's hands, not NATO's. The school bully can't expect the teachers to stand by whilst he beats up the rest of the class. NATO's fault is not being strong enough with Putin before. 

[Formby]

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

They’ve always been cunts mate sometimes you only see it when the chips are down. 

You have a way of putting things, @Palfy, that gets right to the heart of the matter.  

[Palfy]

4 minutes ago, Formby said:

I get your partisanship here but it is really in Putin's hands, not NATO's. The school bully can't expect the teachers to stand by whilst he beats up the rest of the class. NATO's fault is not being strong enough with Putin before. 

Because certain NATO members have always made excuses for him in particular Germany for their own economic reasons, Germany have  got themselves so reliant on Russia for oil and gas they have crippled themselves and are fearful of losing that supply, they need to take the pain and consequences for there economic relationships with Russia and stand shoulder to shoulder with the most of the west and their EU partners and agree to the harshest sanctions against Russia. 

[Cornish Steve]

6 hours ago, RPG said:

And if we do that and it doesn't work (it won't), what do we do then? What would we have left? It's a balance between hitting Putin hard now (and I agree we should have done more) while still leaving the threat of even more sanctions to come.

Personally, I think that however we manage economic sanctions, they won't work. Russia has built up massive gold reserves in recent years (and we all know what war does for the price of gold) and if the west is going to be of any practical use to Ukraine it will have to be on a military front.

Just a thought, but if 75% of Russian conventional forces are currently tied up with Ukraine, wouldn't now be a good time to test their remaining 25%? Not in an open NATO war but by supporting and providing aid to Ukrainian forces outside Ukraine.

The line that cannot be crossed is the invasion of a NATO country. 

[Haiku]

1 hour ago, Formby said:

I get your partisanship here but it is really in Putin's hands, not NATO's. The school bully can't expect the teachers to stand by whilst he beats up the rest of the class. NATO's fault is not being strong enough with Putin before. 

Тhat use of words does not correspond to reality whatsoever. NATO has no authority over Russia. It's two military superpowers against each other. Ukrainian president just confirmed Russian troops took control over military airports in Kyiv. Russians are exercising blitzkrieg against 200k well prepared Ukrainian army. With the current pace of the conflict I expect Ukraine will surrender in a few days. How firm do you think NATO should act? What do you think can stop Putin right now, other than full blown world war out of which it's not certain who will come out victorious?

[Romey 1878]

9 minutes ago, Haiku said:

Тhat use of words does not correspond to reality whatsoever. NATO has no authority over Russia. It's two military superpowers against each other. Ukrainian president just confirmed Russian troops took control over military airports in Kyiv. Russians are exercising blitzkrieg against 200k well prepared Ukrainian army. With the current pace of the conflict I expect Ukraine will surrender in a few days. How firm do you think NATO should act? What do you think can stop Putin right now, other than full blown world war out of which it's not certain who will come out victorious?

Do you support the invasion?

I'm not asking in a shitty way, just curious.

[Haiku]

14 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Do you support the invasion?

I'm not asking in a shitty way, just curious.

In no way. If you ask me should NATO interfere, I will give you the same answer. I just want this to end in thе least painful way and it is to let Russia do their thing and that is to cut down western influence in the country. I don't think they are formally going to annex Ukraine. Unfortunately any other scenario leads to a lot of casualties and losses for all.

[Sibdane]

11 minutes ago, Haiku said:

In no way. If you ask me should NATO interfere, I will give you the same answer. I just want this to end in thе least painful way and it is to let Russia do their thing and that is to cut down western influence in the country. I don't think they are formally going to annex Ukraine. Unfortunately any other scenario leads to a lot of casualties and losses for all.

You sound like a real pushover. 

[Romey 1878]

12 minutes ago, Haiku said:

In no way. If you ask me should NATO interfere, I will give you the same answer. I just want this to end in thе least painful way and it is to let Russia do their thing and that is to cut down western influence in the country. I don't think they are formally going to annex Ukraine. Unfortunately any other scenario leads to a lot of casualties and losses for all.

If Ukraine wants Western influence, or to join NATO, should that not be up to Ukraine to decide and not Russia?

I don’t pretend to know a lot about the situation but this act of pure aggression on Russia’s part and the needless loss of life seems a bit extreme and it shouldn’t just be allowed to happen, like you think. 

[London Blue]

3 hours ago, Haiku said:

In no way. If you ask me should NATO interfere, I will give you the same answer. I just want this to end in thе least painful way and it is to let Russia do their thing and that is to cut down western influence in the country. I don't think they are formally going to annex Ukraine. Unfortunately any other scenario leads to a lot of casualties and losses for all.

Didn't work out too well for the allies when the same was said about appeasing Hitler over Czechoslovakia.

Appeasing someone rarely works out.

[Matt]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

They’ve always been cunts mate sometimes you only see it when the chips are down. 

What a disgracefully ignorant, (borderline) racist comment. 

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, Matt said:

What a disgracefully ignorant, (borderline) racist comment. 

Not racist just look at their history over the last 110 years. 

[Matt]

7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Not racist just look at their history over the last 110 years. 

You just generalised 100+ million people with a derogatory term.

[Matt]

As for "weak" because they're holding off on financially crippling their countries, which would force them to borrow (and who buys the most debt?), its very short sighted. Nordline 2 is already a big initial step, and there will be more to come. I wish the world would all come down hard on Putin immediately but the sad reality is that long term that's also very dangerous and self destructive 

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

You just generalised 100+ million people with a derogatory term.

A derogatory term isn’t racist, if you could ask the Ukrainians what they thought of Germany Italy and Hungary not supporting the tougher sanctions, I think you would find cunt pretty mild. 

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

A derogatory term isn’t racist, if you could ask the Ukrainians what they thought of Germany Italy and Hungary not supporting the tougher sanctions, I think you would find cunt pretty mild. 

I put borderline in there for a reason. You've said it to generalise 3 ancient cultures in a derogatory way. I know you're angry but that is out of line.