kennyw10

Again I point to the fact that we lack ambition (or for want of a better word money to buy quality) that's the board and my views on them are well documented.

 

The reality is that moyes only saving grace for many fans on here is "who else would put up with our lack of money etc etc" and so we come to the conclusion that mediocrity is acceptable along with negative tactics as long as we get the odd top 6 finish. For me that is not what everton football club is about, it's more than that. The longer this mediocrity is tolerated, then the more our younger generation fans are going to accept the odd scraps of near success as something to be celebrated.

 

In short the relationship with moyes and the board has been cosy for too long, they are happy to sit watching moyes operate on a transfer budget of nothing as long as they are in no danger of seeing the club relegated or moyes coming out with Martin oniell esque transfer fund demands. Moyes on the other hand can't go wrong as his permanent standing as plucky under achiever is cemented year on year by the lack of financial backing, patronising "well done everton on finishing above mid table, only a matter of time before man it'd comes calling for moyes"

 

Things need to change, the board will not fund quality transfer targets, moyes is tactically appalling, all has gone stale and the players that have helped us punch above our weight are getting older and possibly looking for change too.

I think you have hit on the most imoportant point of all this, and its AMBITION! Last night was fucking embarassing in my opoinion. Playing hibbert ahead of duffy was bad enough. Slating the strikers for not scoring and then not playing ANY of them is another act of a man who looks like he is losing the plot. But what really stood out for me was the way moyes tried to run the clock down by making two subs in injury time against relegation fodder west ham. He then has the cheek to come out and say that he is dissappointed with a point. Does he think we are fucking thick. If he wanted to win the game why didnt he make the changes earlier. If he thinks this is acceptable for everton, then he is wrong. Time to go, and take the hibberts of the club with you!

We are the only club that would be mad enough to play Hibbert, I highly doubt even a Championship side would be willing to take him on.

Well that says a lot about our great club doesn't it, and a lot about Mr. Moyes. Hibbert plays instead of coleman, and why? Because he is a good pro and everton through and through. Exactly the same reasons the majority of people on here thought it was stupid to try sell him. I dont believe every manager out there knows how bad he his, and so believe he could be offloaded if we had a manager who was ruthless enough to get rid of dead wood.

Sell Hibbert? Nobody would ever buy him, ever.

With the amount of prem experience he has i'm sure plenty of league 1/championship clubs would have him for 750k/1mil, and we wouldn,t have to pay him 25/30k a week or whatever hes on and put up with the pure shite that he serves up as a footballer.

and replace them with who? Say you got 10m for Jags, which was the figure bandied about for him recently, who can you get for 10m to replace him?

 

He doesnt deserve a new contract at the moment but nor should he be sold. Drop him for a couple of games and let Johnny play in his preferred place.

If I was offered 10mil for him or anywhere near it i'd take their hand off. He looks like a poor non league player at the moment and has never been a whole lot better in my opinion. As for replacements, Gary cahill, shawcross, dann, onuoha. With 10 mil to spend i,m sure a lot of clubs would be tempted to sell. Or just sell him and play heitinga, rodwell, duffy or anyone at the club who actually looks like they want the ball and occasionally passes to one of our players

Give Jagielka a new contract? You have got to be joking. He has been absolute rubbish all this season, all last season since his injury. And for those of you who care to remember he was shite when he came to us for nearly a whole season. So basically he has been rubbish a lot more than he has played well. He had a purple patch where he marked torres out of a game and all of a sudden he is a god! The fact is I have never seen a player mpre uncomfortable on the ball, who cant pass, constantly hoofs, and at the moment cant seem to do anything right. I suggested selling him along with some other non footballers in the summer and got ridiculed for it. we should take whatever we can get for jags, hibbert and co. who will never be good enough for everton.

kenny you mentioned pienaar, arteta and rodwell. out of those 3, if we had to...rodwell. he's the only player who we would get a good wedge that isn't vital to the first team. do i want to though? definitely not. but rodwell vs hibbert, yobo, distin, jags...i'd sell rodwell over selling almost our entire defence. you're argument of replacing bench players with 'quality' sure suggests that you would sell rodwell? big money and we could buy some quality players with that money for a player who isn't first team standard? surely all of the players you've mentioned selling are more important than rodwell as a collective bunch because of their first team appearances? why not sell rodwell? remember the last megatalent we sold? how did that turn out for the club? im moving a bit away from what i wanted to say, but essentially if you want to sell to buy, selling 4 or 5 players to buy 1 or 2 in a place weve struggled with injury doesn't make sense, you accuse me of being sentimental but in suggesting that you'd hate to suggest the sale of rodwell, is that not sentimental to a point? for all the talent and promise he has, he's not showed enough to be a week-in-week-out player yet so why is he protected?

 

note: im not saying or supporting the sale of rodwell, just trying to make a point.

 

edit: spidey this would make a fine avatar http://gadgetscrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/itsy-bitsy-spider-man.JPG

Why not sell rodwell?

You said he's not done enough to be in the team, yet i think we could both agree he has massive potential. He wont, and should not be sold because he will be worth double whatever he's worth now in a couple of years if he develops as expected. ie. england caps etc. If we could have held on to rooney for another year or two we could have demanded a lot more than we got. Arteta and pienaar are our best players and in their prime so wouldn'y make any sense to sell them.

So you've agreed we would prob have to sell to buy yet the only player you could 'suggest' we could sell is rodwell, and you made sure that everyone knew that you weren't 'saying or supporting ' this in case any of the lads took it the wrong way.

If no one can even suggest another player that we could sell to improve the team, then it looks like most people are just happy the way things are, I would just like us to show some real ambition in the transfer market, this year especially, as next year may be our last chance to compete with the likes of spurs and city for quite a while, espeially if spurs qualfy for champions league this year.

Look at the number of players spurs turn over, and it doesn't seem to be doing their squad any harm, even if it meant shipping their captain off to celtic. Ambition and ruthlessness go hand in hand.

fuck off mate he is a far better poster than you and you have done nowt but spout shite over and over and cant even keep to the same argument! i'm out too now it's pointless

I'll let you get back to flirting so!

Ive tried to be resonable and you're not having any of it....so Fuck you.

 

Ive tried to tell you the reasons why people would be responding in the way that they do.

 

Oh and like others have pointed out, your maths is wank. Originaly it was 5 (Yobo, Neville, Hibbert, Distin, Jagielka) so dont try justifying your shit 'ideology' on me with arguments that continualy change...If it was a case of 3 average out and 2 good ones in whilst not spending any money in the process, then id suck your dick and take it, you homophobic nob.

 

I'm not even gonna be drawn to this thread anymore, you're being 'silly' (as you say it, you child) so you just wovell around in here and hope that the odd, ex-asylum resident agrees with you.

 

Good day

Calm down you tit. Your total contribution amounted to 'your stupid' anyway, so i dont think you'll be missed.

Kenny lad, I've had a look through this and I'm sorry but it's pure fantasy football - you want to sell 5 players all in 1 area of the pitch who have all played regulary when fit this season - it's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on here (and I'm a big fan of dave's work )

 

Let's break it down...

 

Hibbert - our current longest serving player

Neville - our current club captain (possibly a future coach at the club)

Jagielka - england international centre back returning from almost a year out injured

Distin - moyes bought him last season, has he been that bad we'd sell him this summer? Not many have been slagging him off since our injury crisis has eased - quiet the opposite really.

Yobo - okay fair enough, if the right bid came then it would be worth considering - excellent first signing by moyes though!

 

So what you're suggesting is to get rid of all of these ?!

 

What would that do for team morale? What message would that send out to current players? What message would that send to potential future players? How long would it take for a basically whole new defensive unit to build-up an understanding with each other? Basically it's not feasible in any way!

 

If you had started a topic maybe saying "I think it's time for moyes to think about selling yobo and hibbert...", then a lot would agree with you and accept they have been fantastic servants for the club but can't really see them as 1st teamers anymore. Selling yobo for say £6m and replacing him with senderos for free makes sense if the money generated goes on stregthening other areas of the 1st team, and the same with hibbert, I'm sure moyes respects him enough that if a club came along offering him 1st team football he would allow him to discuss the idea - that's if he see's coleman/neville or another as being ahead of him.

 

Final point(s)... do you:

a.) rate shawcross higher than jagielka?

b.) think shawcross is a £10m player and Jags less? Lescott cost £24m so anyone interested in Jags would be quoted in that price bracket - they were both considered as 1st choice back-up to Terry/Ferdinand in national squad before each got injured. Also £10m wouldn't be enough for shawcross if bolton are saying £18m for cahill - managers aren't dumb, all transfers are comparable and moyes/pullis would quote these facts.

I have conceded that neville wont be goin anywhere and jagielka deserves a chance to return to form. I suggested jagielka because we could demand 15 mil plus for him and an my opinion he is replaceable and we would prob have cash to spare to strenghten elsewhere.

to be fair to myself and everyone else here, the flaws in your arguments result i nthe 'childish abuse' because you don't seem to be able to contemplate how complicated transfers can be or the implications or buying and selling. you also lost a massive amount of credibility suggesting that duffy was better than yobo, i know you're irish but even a 5 year old would probably recognise there's nothing to support that.

 

we're not real madrid, we don't need £10m players on the bench nor can we afford it. if your argument was to sell yobo and invest in donovan or SWP then i'd be more interested because they'd improve our first 11. tell me, when you're a poor team, why would you spend millions revamping a bench that doesn't need it? ontop of that these 'quality' players you mention such as shawcross are unlikely to want to come and sit on the bench. experience is important to defender, having a team of kids isn't going to help.

I'm sorry but i think we're having different arguments here.

I didn't think we were discussing whether or not it was possile to make these transfers or not. I suggested what i would lke to happen and you and your lot called me an idiot. None of us no what is possible or feasible in the trasfer market or have any effect on actual transfers. I'm suggesting what i would like to happen not telling you what can or will happen.

As for duffy better than yobo thats my opinion again, and having watched him quite a bit one i stand by.

I think evryone would agree that we need to sell to buy, and when i sugest selling some of our most average players i get slated.

Who would you rather sell pienaar, arteta, rodwell? I'd hate to be the one to suggest any of them!

Wow that's green, if ive ever seen someone green!! :who-let-rip:

 

Secondly though, what you're saying is that we are all happy with what we've got and don't want excellence. Not ONE person on here has said that...

however (<<<<<This is the key word, take note) the rest of us are REALISTIC...and know that to do what you are suggesting is suicide. What we usualy discuss (Milky, EvertonToffees excluded) are real issues and topics that may have a genuine baring on the club. Anything else won't happen based on our situation as a club.

 

People on here are winding you up or taking it as a wind up because you're living in this reality world that resembles more like FootyManager than actual football discussion. If you are going to continue to fight YOUR UNREALISTIC idea, then yes people are gonna take the piss or this thread belongs in the off topic discussions along side 'Computer games' and 'If we had a billionaire'...

This is getting funny! You haven't said that you dont want excellence but you have said that hibbert/yobo/distin/neville are ok and will do the job! And why bother try to sell them ,people might not want them and there is a lot of work involved!!

And selling 3 average players and buyin 2 good ones is suicide! I think your starting to look silly!

that doesn't look THAT bad but...

 

1. the main flaw here is you've added probably in excess of 15 millions worth of players there from 2 players that probably wouldn't get 10.

2. if neville is are starting fullback and coleman isn't considered ready or is loaned out (which he should be if he isnt playing for experience at that age) then that's fine there's onuoha. if a centre half is injured you bring in shawcross, but if bainesget's injured? if this seasons has taught us one thing it's that strength in depth is important. that squad can cope with maybe 2 injuries 1 at RB and 1 DC any more than that and you're movin Heitinga out of position bringing someone else in or you're playing a right back at left back...that isn't a good thing.

 

i accept that one position we have options is right back and that maybe hibbert could be expendable if we lived in fantasy football land, but he wouldn't fetch enough money worthwhile, and neville is required to fill a role in midfield quite often so we need that option there. at the moment we have pip and hibbert for right back as our top 2 options, unless you can guarantee me that say hibbert = onuoha (which you can't) then i wouldn't sell him. it's all well and good saying oh we dont need him flog him or whatever but is it a coincidence do you think that we were awful and couldn't defend or play for shit when neville was out, then when he comes back we go on a run? maybe, maybe not. one of the real advantages we have over our competition is that although we don't have much money we have a strong team unit and squad harmony, the lads know each others games and get on well together. when you're talking about selling some of them they've then got to settle in and what not and play. the problem there is that you're replacing players who feature quite regularly in the starting 11 at the moment. it's all well and good building for the future, but you've got to find a balance between now and then. look at how city have defended most of the season and how much of a different player lescott was before his injury, useless. at times this season weve not had a single centre half to field and you're talking about flogging them all bar johnny, where's the sense in that? if you had made this point a season or so ago people may have been like 'ok, he's an idiot regarding jags, but far enough on the rest' but you're saying this DURING a season were we're underachieved due to massive injury problems...you're views on reducing the squad size make no sense in my opinion. yobo is more than capable as a bench player, as is distin...why on earth we wouldspend 10 million on a player like shawcross to warm the bench is beyond me, we don't need to improve the quality of the bench, it's fine...we need to improve the first 11 where possible and shawcross isn't going to do that, ned the jury is out on because i've nto seen him much at right back but its at the expense of a player (neville) who has been instrumental in everything we do even though he's pretty shite.

Your basic argument is that we should allow hibbert, yobo and distin to depreciate in value, hopefully on the bench, until they're worth nothing. instead of replacing them with two younger players that might actually have a resale value and improve the quality.

Even if we only got 8/9 mil for these 3 we could still get onouha(quoted at 3.75 mil recently) and another young center half, if we couln't afford to add a few mil and bid for the likes of shawcross.

What do we do now if baines gets injured? Would you really use distin as a left back? He was poison there for portsmouth last year, and i would much rather onuoha or neville there thats if we dont bring in cover in that area anyway.

I have accepted that neville wont be goin anywhere because of what he does but that doesn't change the fact that i would like to see him gone.

As for jags i accept he deserves another year to get properly fit and return to form, but his performances have been so poor, and i obviously dont rate him as a god like some do, that i was wondering if anyone shared my view that he is replaceable. Unfortunately merely mentioning the fact that he could be replaceable, renders the rest of the argument as nonsense, and subject to chidish abuse.

My first involvement with the thread.

 

Initially I thought it may be some form of wind up thread, it still may be to the gullible, however Kennys' constant replying indicate that he was trying to initiate a valid debate, no matter how ludicrous that may be to others. If that is so does he deserve to be pilloried on such a scale and if it is ok to pillory people how far can we go before we get banned.

It seems if your not in the flirting 'click' then your views are dismissed as nonsense. I can assure it is not a wind up just a genuine belief that we should strive for excellence and not just be happy with what we've got because they're good pros or everton through and through or whatever.

To me its our defence now that really needs most attention and if we get that sorted and add a striker and possibly a winger we could do great things. All i can say is i hope the man who matters(moyes) has more ambition than some of the supporters on here!

aging squad players that over the last season have been very important to us.

 

hibbert isn't shite, he's just not good goign forward, he's still our best defensive option at right back. hibberts not on 40 grand or anything, he's a cheap and good backup option. name some better right back reserve options about...there aren't many and certainly not on small relatively wages.

 

if people like you had their way the dressing room would be ruined and our higher 'quality' squad would probably fall flat.

So dont try improve the quality of the squad cos all the lads are sound and we might 'fall flat', plus we owe them for playing well for a few games so they deserve to stay. And we're back to the old keep players for the sake of it or because they are everton through and through. I'm everton through and through, so i should be in the squad? If we sold hibbert along with yobo / distin and bought a young center half ie. shawcross and onuoha we would stll have loads of options at right full center half and an extra option at left back. Wages would be reduced if anything because of one less body. Is this ludacrious?

Right back = Neville(because we're stuck with him),Heitinga,Coleman,Onuoha

Center half = Heitinga, Jags, Shawcross or whoever, Onuoha, Senderos, Duffy, Rodwell(if needed), Neville(if badly stuck)

Left back = Baines, onuoha, neville(again if badly stuck)

You also seem to be forgetting that it was mostly these players that kept us our record amount of clean sheets last season.

 

I dont think anyone would argue that we could do with strenghtening our defence, especially RB depending on the development of Coleman but there is a massive difference between wanting to bring in world class players and the actual reality of bringing them in.

 

In the Shawcross scenario you allude to where he would roughly cost 10mil, I bet my white hairy arse that we wouldnt be the only ones going in for him, so if we offered 10mil a couple of other teams like Man Utd, Man City, Spurs, Liverpool and probably Villa would all be looking to also get him on board and they could offer more of a fee as well as more in wages and european football. Would Shawcross be worth selling two decent players on modest wages for someone we would probably have to break the bank for (50k+ wages) who would be a bench warmer if the team was fit?

 

Me thinks not, Id rather sell one (preferably Yobo) and get a young promising versatile CB who can act as cover as he develops. I think it also depends on how quickly Moyes believes Duffy will progress. If he thinks he will be ready to chip in with a few premiership appearances then we could well get rid of both Yobo and Distin (although I really doubt Distin will leave), get in Onouha and have some money spare for a winger.

So you agree we should sell yobo and distin if duffy is ready for a few games and we could still keep senderos on a free who would be an experienced replacement for either.

Hibbert is shite and should also be offloaded for whatever we can get and not just kept for sentimental value, and neville is only there because his head is half way up moyes' arse most of the time, he's a good leader but as i said he could to that from the line or preferibly the stand. Unfortunately he is goin nowhere though, it would prob take till christmas to get his head out anyway.

If we couldn't get shawcross then getting another young center half and onouha would make good business sense as yobo,hibbert and distin will be worth nothing in two years time and we should get whatever we can for them now. Everyone seems to be shooting down this idea of selling by saying we're broke we cant afford to do anything. We need to sell, we cant afford to have ageing squad players on big money. We need to get rid and bring in new blood.

Actually that's the gist of most of them tbf.

 

AND WE WOULDN'T HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY!

And there was silly me thinking it was to discuss all things everton. Boy do i feel stupid!

1) Didn't say don't try. But, there LIKELY aren't buyers.

 

2) yes. see 1)

 

3) See, Fellaini, Bily, Jags, Saha, and that's just recently for Everton. There are tons of examples where players take time to meld into the style of play in a new country/club.

 

4) I agree, I just question feasibility.

 

5) aw, shucks.

4)So you agree we should improve the quality of the squad at the expense of one body, but you dont THINK its feasible so i'm a twat for suggesting it?

This one is just for flirting and telling each other how great we all are is it?

been watching the thread to see how it would play out. kenny, I think you've got reality and FM mixed up. I think we can agree that you are right in saying that there are better defenders out there than Yobo, Distin and Hibbo and that I'd (and everyone else) love to have them on our team. But that's about it. You have failed to see the flaws in your logic; most of which are largely financial, but there are several others.

 

1) No one is looking to buy Tony Hibbert or Silvain Distin, especially not for a reasonable fee. Sure, they might be values at 2 and 4 mil, respectively, but I can hardly see a lower level prem team scooping them up when they could just as well take 1 mil gamble on a championship defender who could turn out better.

 

2)The fees we would get, if we could sell everyone you wanted to, would not be sufficient to buy 2 quality defenders. Unfortunately, we have ZERO budget in the transfer market (see last 2 summers), so selling 12 million in players isn't going to see us spending 20-25 mil on new ones. And that's just considering transfer fees, not wages, bonuses and negotiation costs (as previously mentioned). Like was said, if we could sell Distin and buy Shawcross, we'd all do it in a heartbeat, but it's not happening.

 

3) The team cannot be so drastically disrupted in one go. If we're to get off to a reasonable start next term, it is best we have a team that has already figured out how to play with each other. We have that, no need to break it up for some modest improvement.

 

4) Squad size is crucial. One only has to look as far back as January to see how much we could benefit from a larger squad, not a smaller one. It is lunacy to suggest we'd be fine with FEWER players!

 

5) You assume that homo-eroticism and football are mutually exclusive. Twat.

1) dont try and sell players cos people might not want them

2)keep 3 average players instead of two quality ones in case they want decent wages even though you'd have one less journeyman to pay

3)It takes a year for players to 'figure out how to play with each other'. give me a break. good players play, end of.

4)We had a horrendous injury list that is unlikely to be repeated, my point was it is worth the risk of having one less body to improve the QUALITY

5)HILLARIOUS

funny i was thinkin the same thing

'I know u are but what am i?' Really?

Embarrassing

thanks you ain't that bad after all...

Is this how lonely people make themselves feel beter, by flirting with men on forums and pretending its about football?

is it too inappropriate to make an arse splitting joke?

Brilliant, so sharp and witty!

Of course not. ToffeeTalk.com helped to found the Everton Gay Supporters' Association. We were quite instrumental in getting Everton's pink third kit last year to support breast cancer awareness.

 

Have you got a problem with that? Bigot.

Again, side splitting!

drivel? do me a favour im not the one that can't add and form a logical arguement that's not filled with fantasy and innaccuracies. shawcross wouldn't even be an improvement on what we have. all your doing is gettign rid of perfectly good squad players, we aren't barcelona who can have henry on the bench. you're both boring and deluded, i wont bother with you anymore

yea your right whats the point having quality players when we can have an extra average one. and shawcross not an improvement, please! what fucking team are you watching?