BoroBlue

If you had seen Barkley in the reserve game the other day you wouldnt have made that comment, he was practicly invisible.

Baxter played a lot better but i wouldnt want either of them anywhere near the 1st team at the moment.

Did you see the full game or just the highlights on evertontv? Just wondering what you or anyone else who has seen any of the reserve games recently makes of the young lads in and around the first team squad at the moment (Gueye, Vellios, Bexter, Barkley). Looking at there recent results they appear to be scoring goals for fun.

What does the width of the pitch have to do with anything? It's not like we changed it just because we were playing them.

Its like penis envy, only I think they call it pitch envy.

http://thisisourcitymanchester.blogspot.com/2012/02/uniteds-childishness-proves-there-is.html

 

sour grapes much?

What a complete tit you are Moyes, I wonder if Manalos thinks thank god I didn't sign on the dotted line when he sees that team sheet!

It says we are delaying the transfer to see if we can afford the 500k after the Jelavic transfer goes through, if only we could fine Saha 10 weeks wages for his p*ss poor performances this season that should about cover it!

calm down hafnia....... .

 

shane has shown what he can do, but moyes is right in a way.... premiership is all about keeping a high standard of performance at all times, when jags and distan come back, shane hopefully will get a loan move to a championship side club........or barca or madrid might snap him up.....lol!

 

either way i think moyes has the player in his best interests, alot of good days ahead at everton for shane IMO!

 

enjoy the game tonight!

 

 

coyb/mufc @mikeO

completely agree with you about taking Shane back out of the limelight when the senior centrebacks return to fitness and getting him a loan to a championship club, but I for one will be fuming if Moyes drops him for Hibbert at centreback, what sort of a message does that send out to Shane and the other young players at the club, even if they play well the manager would rather play an average senior player out of position than give them a run in the first team

I will officially lose all faith in Moyes if he puts Hibbert at centreback instead of Shane.

 

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2012/01/26/moyes-assesses-defensive-options

For Duffys progression and confidence do you think it is better if he is dropped when the senior centrebacks return to fitness while he is playing well, or do you think it is better to wait for his form to dip or for him to make a mistake then drop him?

a player can last on reputation for a certain time...but cahill, neville and saha are on borrowed time and well into it performance wise..all 3 have been immensely poor for a long time..and as for jags have we conceded less goals since he was out? no..our midfield and full backs are to blame as much..too many easy goals with no pressure...and before anyone shoves it up my arse i think he's been shit too but certainly not solely to blame for points

Just checked the figures and the defence with Jags conceded 8 goals in the 10 and a half games before his injury, they have conceded 6 goals in the 3 and a half games since his injury.

 

I think with Jags he is always going to make mistakes because he is the one willing to step out of position to put a challenge or an interception in, this is vital for breaking up opposition play and not inviting pressure on ourselves and I think is something we are missing at the moment and is exposing our defensive midfielders and fullbacks as you say. I also think this is the reason he seems to get criticised by fans so often and I think alot of it is unfair.

 

I will agree that his distribution isn't superb and he opts to go long too often but I think that is largely to do with our midfield being very flat, there isn't a whole lot of options in front to pass to.

 

I am not criticising the replacement centrebacks as I think they are doing a great job, particularly the young lad Duffy, but the team needs to adapt to life without Jags and try and plug that gap between defence on midfield because at the moment I think we are giving people far to much time on the ball in that dangerous area.

Dark days ahead i think, if we have no investment now whats gonna happen in two or three years? the average age of the squad is 30 and with Billy Bollocks in charge wot happens in two years when cahill,dystin,saha,neville,hibbert are gone? all stalwarts for moyes with no money to replace them. Every year were selling our better players and replacing them with free transfers,loans etc who are are vastly inferior to what we had. Its gonna get worse if the football were getting is the best Davey has to offer, i think he has run out of ideas to be honest as much as it kills me to say. We need to get to 40 points as soon as and bed the youngsters in, wallace, McAleney, BARKLEY! and we should have a fucking clear out. People might say if Moyes goes we get Lambert, Rodgers to replace him, why the fuck would they leave a team that are run well and play FOOTBALL to come to us? an average old team with no dough, dwindling crowds and no fucking future?

 

Personally I look forward to the day these players leave because I think the current crop of youngsters at the club have far more to offer than the old boys, but I agree we should be looking to do this sooner rather than later to give them exposure to first team football and let them bed in to the team. I also think we need to forget about the investment ever coming in as it doesn't look like happening anytime soon, and even if it does the fifa financial fair play rules mean we can't just go out and buy a new team anyway, the club needs to be breaking even, which means we need to put our faith in the youngsters at the club.

http://www.teamtalk.com/everton/7441698/Moyes-Everton-have-the-chance-to-be-mint

 

Interesting read, couldn't agree more either. Its time to stop making excuses and waiting for a rich investor to throw us a lifeline, and start rebuilding the squad and making the best of what we have.

Would like to see:

 

Howard

Coleman Heitinga Duffy Baines

Rodwell Felliani Barkley

Baxter Vellios Gueye

 

Not going to happen any time soon but would like to see how that team would get on

you won't get 10m for howard

I know which one of these scenarios I would choose. I don't pretend to know what replacement goalkeepers are available, what age Howards ability will decline or what his value is in the current market but this is just an example to illustrate a point.

 

I refer you to my previous post

sell howard? who would you replace him with?

Selling Howard is a crazy idea.

 

Don't get me wrong Tim Howard is a great goalkeeper, I am not saying we could easily replace him or improve on him without spending money, but the point I was trying to make was this:

 

The club has no money, we can't afford to allow players to play out their careers here and eventually lose them for nothing when we could sell them early for a fee and replace them with that fee.

 

Tim Howard is nearly 33 years old, right now he is in his peak and still young enough to command a reasonable fee, in 3 years time he will be nearly 36 and while his ability may not have declined due to his age his value certainly will have.

 

Lets say we sell him in the Summer for £10million, the banks take half and we are left with 5mil to buy a new keeper.

 

Lets say we sell him in 3 years for £2million, the banks take half and we are left with 1mil to buy a new keeper.

 

Lets say we release him in 6years time when his top flight career comes to an end, we have no money to buy a replacement and the banks put pressure on us to sell another player.

 

I know which one of these scenarios I would choose. I don't pretend to know what replacement goalkeepers are available, what age Howards ability will decline or what his value is in the current market but this is just an example to illustrate a point.

We should keep hold of at any cost:

Rodwell, Barkley, Felliani, Baines

 

We should sell for the right price:

Jags, Heitinga, Osman, Hibbert, Coleman, Howard

 

We should look to sell for whatever we can get to raise funds (transfer fees and reduced wage bill) to rebuild:

Distin, Saha, Cahill, Bilyaletdinov, Anichebe, Mucha, Yobo, Neville

 

We should be looking to bed in to the first team:

Gueye, Duffy, Baxter, Vellios, McAleny, Garbutt

 

We will be losing at the end of the season (or earlier)

McFadden, Drenthe, Straqualursi, Donovan, Hanneman

 

We should be looking to bring in:

Cheap, young, hungry players who are good enough to do a job now and with the potential to improve the team.

 

We should not be looking to bring in:

Loans (they eat up what little funds we have, develop players for other teams while hampering our own players development, and are very short sighted), players approaching there twilight years (there is no re-sale value, again very short sighted).

 

The way I see it we are at a cross roads now, either Moyes decides to sell to raise funds to rebuild a squad that can maybe once again challenge for europe or even higher, or he continues to try and tread water and keeps faith with his old players who have served him well in the past and we eventually and inevitably sink to the bottom of the league or further.

Ravel Morrison anyone? Out of contract in the summer and doesn't look like signing another one, reportedly available for around 300k (the fee UTD would expect to get at tribunal), several parties interested, could we be one of them? Often referred to as potentially one of the greatest talents of his generation but has been in abit of bother with the police, described as "a supremely gifted talent: a skilful, creative midfielder capable of scoring and making goals" on the club website. He can play in wide positions, in the centre of the park, or just behind the main striker.

I'm getting a bit sick and tired of hearing our lack of finances being used as an excuse for poor performances this season. We may not have the money other clubs around us, but how many clubs have had players of the calibre of rooney, rodwell and barkley come through their youth academies in the last 10 years, how many other clubs have enjoyed the stability of management we have over the last 10 years. The players at the club and the manager are far better than the performances of this season suggest and I think Moyes and the players need to stop making excuses and realise the poor performances are down to there own poor performances, not the financial situation at the club.

 

As abit of a side note both Arsenal and Newcastle have had net transfer spends over the last 5 years in minus figures (ours is about £1 million), both have been forced to lose players they didn't want to as have we, and both have rebuilt their squads and are improving this year, we are not.

May be showing a lack of technical knowledge here but how is 4-5-1 with attacking players (Drenthe/Gueye) in the wide positions different from 4-3-3?

Thats the point I was trying to make really, the formation we play isn't the problem, its the rigidity with which we play it.

 

Using Barcelona as an example again you could argue that they play 4-5-1 or 4-3-3, or you could write it as 4-1-4-1, 4-4-1-1, 4-1-2-1-2 or even 4-2-3-1. The fact is they don't really stick to any one formation they change through the match with defensive players playing more disciplined roles, and attacking players given the freedom to play.

When you play 4-5-1 with a striker who drops deep that's what happens, I'm sure moyes must know this. No prescence up front.

Thats how Barcelona play, they call it the fake number 9 role and it is occupied by Lionel Messi, who apparently is not a bad little player, but it doesn't really work when you have a striker who drops deep and no-one willing to run beyond him.

 

Only saw the highlights on MOTD and looked like a decent performance. Would like to see Gueye and Drenthe on the wings again switching over to keep defenders on there toes, looks like a potent weapon.

Good to see the young lads Neville, Saha, Cahill and Hibbert given a chance ahead of Rodwell, Vellios, Barkley and Coleman.

 

Rant over COYB, it is good to see Gueye given a chance though.

If we look at club history, we have expectancy. With that expectancy comes disappointment if expectations are not met. Moyes is stuck in the middle, but he isn't equipped with enough quality players to meet the expectancy of the fans. Fans start to analyse and scrutinise, and every weakness of Moyes becomes uncovered in their search for the answer.

 

Is it right to pull the guy apart, and expect every decision he makes to be correct? Is he not human, and allowed to make mistakes?

 

If he had more quality players, would some of his decisions be different?

 

It's a circle of events that requires Moyes to continually be a tactical genius, in order to have a chance of succeeding. We are asking far too much of the man.

 

Give him a squad - let him manage it - judge him.

 

At the moment, it's give him a second rate squad - ask him to perform miracles - condemn him.

 

We all want what is best for the team, especially Moyes, but the answer is surely to give him a better squad, rather than to replace him. Would another manager compete any better with our current squad? (remember we need it to be long term, not just for the rest of the season).

 

I think with better players, comes easier decision making. We have a 'tiny' squad, and in it, many players are ageing because the club have been unable to invest. Moyes would be in a completely different mind set if he had a team able to compete. At present, he can only look to survive.

 

6 players would be nice.

 

Do you think Moyes is getting the best out of the current team?

 

Do you think Moyes has been tactically sound so far this season?

 

Do you think Moyes has made the most of his limited resources in recent season?

Not everybody forgets just what a fantastic manager Moyes has been since he joined us in 2002.

 

He has worked tirelessly for our club, and given the fans a new sense of expectancy and pride. With very little help from the board, he has taken us back to the top end of the table, given us Wembley experience, and European excitement.

 

His transfer dealings have been remarkable, finding complete bargains, and turning many of them into International stars, coveted by the top clubs, and his faith in bringing young players through is there for all to see.

 

We are currently going through our hardest period in many years, as a business, and many fans have been at a low, with all the politics surrounding us, but it is time to stop using Moyes as an outlet for your frustrations - he simply doesn't deserve it. If anything, blame the game itself, and it's financial burden.

 

So he makes a few decisions that fans don't expect. The same 'out of the box' thinking was what made us a great team. You can't expect the guy to get things right all the time, nor can you expect to take the teams best players away and not have a blip.

 

Give the man time, and he will turn it round.

 

I think there is still another chapter unwritten for our club, and I don't think it will be a negative one.

 

It's time to get back behind the man, and start being Evertonians again

 

 

My point to Matt was that we have to forget history, and anything else, if we are to be able to contemplate our current situation.

Up and down the forums, fans can't accept it, because they feel we should be above all this.

 

 

I'm confused, should we be forgetting history or not?

 

On the one hand Moyes is immune to criticism based on his past achievements

 

but on the other we need to forget history and the clubs past achievments and base our expectations on the current situation.

 

I completely agree with you on the second point but not the first

 

Is Moyes getting the best out of the current crop of players? No I don't think so

 

Is Moyes getting the most out the resources available to him? No, as the manager he needs to be making tough decisions, what areas can we afford to sell in order to raise funds and what areas need to be strengthened with the limited funds available.

 

Do I think Moyes should be given time to get things right? Yes, there is no denying what a great job he has done in the past and you don't lose that over night

 

Do I think the fans have a right to criticise? Yes, simply put our results and performances have been poor as have Moyes tactics, On paper I would put us behind the top 6 teams in the league but above the rest so we are underperforming at the minute.

 

If results and performances don't pick up by the end of the season will I still be behind Moyes? I'm not so sure

A back 5 of Hibbert, Jags, Heits & Baines with Felli just infront would be good enough to stop most teams from playing, and would allow the rest to have the freedom to go and play. I cant stand playing 2 defensive midfields as one player is more or less wasted, as they share defensive duties but dont get far enough forward to join in with the attack.

I know what you mean and perhaps I have worded it wrong, what I meant was more that we have 2 centre mids who play a more disciplined role. Felliani and Rodwell both have the athleticism and the brain to be able to provide cover to the defence and each other while getting forward when appropriate.

 

I agree with you that 2 midfield anchors leaves 1 player wasted but I do think a midfield anchor plays better when they have a deep-lying player next to them who can make themselves available to recieve the ball from the more defensive minded players and give it to the more attacking players. Xavi is a great example of this type of player. Arteta did this job for us and I think that has been something we have missed this year and Arsenal have benefited from.

 

Unfortunately we do not have that type of player anymore, but what we do have is 2 players in Rodwell and Felliani who have the athleticism to play box-to-box, the footballing brain to know when to stay back and when to get forward, the defensive ability to be able to cover the backline including 2 attacking full backs, and the technical ability to be able to control the game and bring others in to play. This is why I think we should play both in defensive/central midfield roles and I think as the partnership develops it could be a formidable one.

I think Hibbert is in good form at the moment. I'm not sure I'd want to drop him and put Coleman there. They've been gelling recently.

While I agree with you about Hibberts form I do not think he should be first choice at rightback as he is very limited as a footballer. As back-up and as a squad player I think he is great, a model profesional who is solid and reliable definsively, but this isn't enough to be first choice in a team who are looking to progress.

 

I am not saying Coleman is the better rightback at the moment but he has the potential to be, and I think he offers far more going forward although he is not as solid at the back, but what do they say about attack being the best form of defence, the opposition can afford to be alot more adventurous if we have a player who offers nothing going forward. The pace and directness of Coleman would mean the opposition would have to be more cautious coming forward so not to get hit on the break. It would also afford whoever is playing right mid more space as the opposition would not be able to double up on them and would have to watch out for overlapping runs.

 

Its just a theory but basically what I am saying is I think a more attacking fullback could actually make us more defensively solid as a unit aswell as offering more going forward. This is because we would not be inviting pressure on ourselves down that side and would give them something to think about aswell.

I really don't understand all the calls for us to play 2 upfront. We have no strikers of the required quality at the moment so why do people feel picking 2 of them is going to help anything?

 

Most the top teams play with one striker these days the difference is they have players around them who can create and play off the striker. I think our problem is our midfield 5 is completely flat, all players are expected to be involved in both defensive and attacking phases of play and it just doesn't work. We are so easy to defend against because we are so flat, teams can afford just to soak up the pressure and hit us on the break, yesterday we had 70% possesion and still were unable to create anything.

 

It seems to me players are unwilling to move into space and play in the hole as this would mean leaving an opposition player unmarked, it is such a negative way to play and is why we always end up playing hoofball, because there is no-one linking midfield/defence and attack.

 

If we play with a back 4 with Baines and Coleman at fullback and Rodwell and Felliani playing as defensive central midfielders this gives us a solid back 6 capable of controlling the game at the back as well as joining attack when appropriate. One up front with the ability to hold the ball and bring others into play, I like Vellios for this as I feel he has all the attributes and ability needed and is only going to get better.

 

That gives us 3 players who can afford to play with abit of freedom to create chances, and play in the hole between the oppositions defence and midfield. I am not saying these players should have no defensive responsibilities at all, but not when we have the ball. What really impresses me about Barcelona aside from there obvious technical abilities is what they do when they don't have the ball, they defend from the from the front and don't give the opposition a moments peace. How many times do you see there attacking players in and around there own box, but that doesn't mean they don't contribute defensively.