New Stadium

You have no idea of what makes a stadium a success - read my posts again. Rapid-transit rail right to the door does. If it is easy to get to they turn up. Just accept it and then shout if a stadium is proposed without it. Like the one on SP and the one in Kikby.

The city's history and heritage is threatened because of a concrete lump. Something are priceless and should not be meddled with.

Well MATE!!! The waterfront at Melbourne , which is very different in layout to Central Docks, could have been a lot better. I know people in Melbourne and they say the stadium does little for the place. The stadium is a success because it is a well designed stadium - it would be a success in any location. You said yourself the docklands is crap. It could have been far better without the concrete lump in the way. In Liverpool we can have both. A vibrant dock area - a World Heritage Site - and a superb stadium in great location that takes minutes to get to from all over Merseyside. Putting a stadium in Central Docks is akin tom putting nuclear powers station there. At leas the power station does not attract litter.

This proposal did not even have rapid-transit rail run in. A tunnel virtually hits the park. The Outer Loop runs right past it. Someone should have told them. The curved of trees at the top of the site is the old trackbed. It is still there.

That says it all. Stadium is great, but destroyed a waterscape that could have been vibrant and a great attraction. We have partially done that in the south end docks with the arena. And footy fans want to do the same in Central Docks as well. Duh! If the city makes the same mistake twice the UN may revoke the World Heritage Status. They has meeting with the city about 18 months - 2 years back about how they were applying the WHS. They were mumbling about Liverpool being the first to have the WHS revoked.

You presuming they will not. Don't get into finance it is not your field. That is between the city and the UN. The UN gave the World Heritage Status - it was not to plonk a large lump on concrete on it. Have you looked at the WHS web site? Do you know what it is all about> It is clear you do not. It is not green belt. WHP is only one of highly suitable sites. Not into trains. I know what advances cities though - rapid transit. And I know what advances stadia - rapid-transit. Not that one again. Proud of Liverpool they shout!!! Yet wants to destroy its history and heritage because of a footy obsession. Some pride and concern that is. Reverting to personal insults so have lost the argument. Thanks. Now go and look at what the World Heritage site is about. Find out about Liverpool's history and heritage - in which football is a very minor player, despite what is bouncing around your obsessed mind.

If LFC build at SP and EFC stay (highly unlikely), a station will not be at County Road. One was there until 1948, Spellow: Spellow It is in a deep cutting with only two shallow platforms. The throughput will be very poor. LFC were supposed to be contributing towards a new station at Cherry lane with 4 platforms, so it will be as near to them as possible. If electrified a new signalling system could have trains 2 minutes apart. But the Canada Dock Branch Line is poor as it does not mesh into Merseyrail well. The Outer Loop via WHP does. There is no way a station will be at County Rd to do the two grounds. You mean your fantasy stadium at Clarence Dock destroying the city's heritage? This stadium is in the inside the heads of two nuts who put together the CAD renders and emailed them out to site admin' men. Read what I wrote. No organisation is planning a stadium there. The UN have approved the plans and no stadium is approved!!!! No one who cares about Liverpool would want to destroy such a site with a concrete lump of a footy stadium. Then they tell me they are proud of their city and coming from Liverpool and wanting to destroy it. How odd.

EFC, NWDA, Dpt of Tabnsport fro the rail and any other other vested interest. Stop playing at being an amateur accountant. Footy fans know all about accountancy don't they? I am not proposing anything. I am saying a large concrete lump of a footy ground is totally inappropriate for the World Heritage Site. I am not a philistine and value the city's history and heritage. I am directed you to look up what the WHS is and means. It is best you do that. It is not just museums. Sorry, it had an appalling reputation no matter what you thought. They think differently now. I doubt a stadium would have changed their views. It is clear you are set on destroying a World Heritage Site, because of narrow mined footy following. Anyone who values his city, the one you say you are proud of, would not want an inappropriate concrete lump of a footy ground on one of its most sacred sites.. But it is way down the list. He on about class now! How confused It also doesn't mean a footy stadium destroys history and heritage either. It is hard to hide a large concrete lump. It is clear you care more about footy than your city. Thank God most people in Liverpool are not like you. Liverpool 8. And I care about its history and heritage, despite being a footy fan. We can have a world renowned city if it is done right - and that is not building large concrete lumps on heritage sites. Did you read the Johnathan Brown's piece I posted? See this: The future Amsterdam

Any station on that line will not be at Walton Lane. It will be around Cherry Lane to cope with 75,000 at LFC. The line initially could be diesel running from Bootle to Lime St mainline. IF the electrification is run through to the docks in 4 years it may start out as electrified meshing better with Merseyrail and if the Waterloo and/or Wapping tunnels are recommissioned then direct access to "most" of Merseyside. Why would they put another station at Walton Lane if EFC move on?

I didn't side step anything. You are unable to focus on the point in question. A trait of footy obsessives. You appear to want to destroy a World Heritage Site for the sake of s concrete footy ground - which can go in better sites anywhere. Sydney Opera House as not on a World Heritage Site. Please focus. The World Heritage Status has done wonders for the city - its image has climbed immensely from one of a crime ridden slum to one of history and heritage. No footy ground ever would do what that has done. Cruise liners call in - not to take passengers to footy games. BTW, football is no more important to the history of the city than football in any other major city. Most people in Liverpool do not go to footy matches. The attendances of the two clubs is less than thrilling and in history nothing to note either. Where you get this notion that football is paramount to the city is beyond me. The World Heritage Site of Central Docks is far more important to the city to plonk a concrete lump of a footy ground on.

You needed to be brought back on topic.

Waywards minds here. The point is that a large concrete lump of a stadium should not go on a World Heritage Site destroying it, when there are many more suitable sites for a footy ground elsewhere in the city. Do you know what the World Heritage Site is about?

Your initial questions were answered. Central Dock's history and heritage is maritime - not sport!!!! Now to your later question. EFC & LFC are important, however not at the expense of something which is far more important - and important to the world. More people emigrated to America from Liverpool than any other port. The population of America was the largest human migration in history. Of world importance. And those docks were key to that. Hence why the UN came in. Liverpool is a very historic city, although most of the population haven't much of a clue about it. No concrete lump should go on them. The Kings Dock IKEA shed-like Arena was bad enough. Once bitten..... Funds? Read back. Many bodies would contribute. A stadium with rapid-transit access would bring in large revenues to pay back loans.

I know footy fans tell them selves lies a lot, but are you serious? EFC & LFC have no history in Central Docks whatsoever. The history and heritage is of maritime importance. EFC & LFC has history in Walton though, and Walton Hall Park would get us a stadium or two and a great extension to Merseyrail metro. I fail to see how a stadium in Central Dock would promote the city in general. The city's heritage is acknowledged as of “universal human significance” by the United Nations. Do you think the UN will be happy of the city allows a stadium to be slapped on that, when many suitable sites are available elsewhere in the city? They may remove the World Heritage Status from the city. The city has to follow the rules. I know there are many philistines who would build a concrete lump on such an important heritage site. I am not one of them. Walton Hall Park is not greenbelt and not listed as was Stanley Park. I would rather EFC & LFC were either end of WHP than LFC be on Stanley Park. Get it firmly in your head that no stadium will be a massive success unless rapid-transit rail with mainline rail connections is implemented. The Emirates is a great success because of the ease of access via a 5 surrounding stations. It runs at 100% capacity. Liverpool has rapid-transit rail, yet is ignoring it. London would not do such a thing. No rapid-transit to the stadium, no stadium!!!! Because it makes sense all around and the fans and clubs are the big winners. Jonathan Brown, Merseyside Civic Society........ Seven miles of waterfront puts Liverpool on a par with world cities like Nice, Sydney or downtown Manhattan. At present we have still to develop sufficient civic vision to understand what that means in planning terms. For instance, the Albert Dock’s water space is actually bigger than Trafalgar Square in London – stretching in each direction we are blessed with an extensive series of magnificent historic “water-squares”, unique in all the world. Magnificent because their setting overlooks the mighty Mersey, with the great metropolis of Liverpool rising up behind. This legacy in stone is a gift from the past that our friends in other cities would die for. So, what have we spent the last two decades doing with those “water squares”, whose heritage is acknowledged as of “universal human significance” by the United Nations? What lessons have we learned since central government stepped in and saved the Albert Dock from demolition? It is painful to say that we have spent much of that time filling many of the old docks in for car parking and “anytown” development, and allowed the rise of an exclusive, suburban-scale “apartmentopolis” of flats, forecourts for car dealerships and fast-food restaurants. The latest example of this lack of stewardship is the abominable multi-storey car park just up from the Liver Buildings on the Princes dock – an absolute eyesore, and the foolhardy proposals to fill in the Georgian Waterloo Dock. The increasing outcry shows united concern at potential damage to what is not just one of Liverpool’s but the world’s prize heritage assets. We urgently need an ambitious and above all imaginative review of the riverfront’s potential.

You are getting confused with the Canada Dock Branch Line (sometimes called the Bootle Branch) it takes freight trains to the docks. This is a north end loop running from Edge Hill to Bootle via Kirkdale. It still takes trains. This may be electrified along with the Liverpool-Manchester line. It can them merge with Merseyrail using dual-voltage picks trains (3rd rail and wires). As it stands if opened for LFC it would run from Bootle to mainline Lime St via Edge Hill using diesel trains. A point to point line. The Outer Loop full merges into Merseyrail running both way easily back to the city centre. Dep of Transport, Council, NWDA, LFC, EFC, etc, may collectively fund the Outer Loop as it will alleviate congestion and pollution in the city centre. The station will attract investment around them as they do in London and other cities. It can kill many birds with one stone. Below: Canada Dock Branch Line in Blue. Northern Line in black, Kirkdale in the North, Lime Street in the South. A point to point diesel line at the mo', if commissioned. The Kirkdale tunnel can be seen and WHP is at the top where it says Walton. Merseyrail (run by NedRail/Serco) do not like the idea of running diesel trains as they have to farm it out to Northern Rail, so make less money. They get paid to run Merseyrail as all urban railways run at a loss - they are a social necessity. They like to run electric trains. The City Line is diesel and operated by Northern Rail with Merseyrail colours and tickets. Their view may change when the L'pool-Mcr line is electrified in 4 years - the document heavily implies the Canada Dock Branch line is to electrified for freight trains to access the West Coat Main Line. This means the passenger trains can use as well. BTW, Merseytravel, the local transport executive decides if a line gets recommissioned. They are the authority, Nedrail/Serco just run the network. Merseyrail need to promote the system like London Underground do. Many People in Merseyside could use the Merseyrail metro but just don't. They just don't think of it.

Walton Hall Park is the best site for EFC or a shared stadium. There is a disused tunnel from Kirkdale to the Rice Lane flyover. This can be extended under the junction and into the park and a station under the stadium - the tunnel is still running under the flyover junction as the lines were only lifted in 1975. Skirting the park the track beds of the old curves are largely still there. This connects onto the outer loop line trackbed that goes to West Derby/Broad Green/Childwall/Gatacre/Hunts Cross/South Parkway and back to the city centre via Brunswick. Merseyrail can then go back to the centre via Kirkdale and the other way onto South Parkway for the London line and the Manchester line. A station may be built at Rice Lane or anywhere in one of the tunnel cuttings. Th red is the disused tunnel from Kirkdale station (bottom left) to the Rice Lane Flyover. An Everton stadium can be just over the junction in Walton Hall Park. The white dotted lines are the old trackbeds and the lead off to bottom right is the outer loop line that goes to West Derby and then onto South Parkway. It can form a complete loop via the city centre. The dotted line just north of Goodison Park is the Canada Dock Branch line. Courtesy of Multimap The disused tunnel: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/w/walton_on_the_hill/ The Outer Loop Line's Bridges are still in Place - the line is mothballed There is no joined up thinking. All is there waiting for someone to think it all together. Merseyside has a high throughput rapid transit rail system,. No stadium should be be given planning permission unless they build it in as a part of the stadium, or just nearby, a Merseyrail metro station. It is madness not too!!!!! All benefit mainly the fans and club(s). The trams have been scrapped. The Dept of Transport will fund any Merseyrail extensions along with EU and NWDA. The Outer loop forms a complete loop through the city centre - all the districts along its rout will benefit not just a footy ground. It is easy to see that the Outer Loop is the by far a great enhancement to the city and a footy club: It merges into Merseyrail easily and forms a complete loop through the centre from both ways. On matchdays, trains just need to stay on the loop and run in and out of the stadium station. This make matters very easy for Merseyrail operation in getting the trains in and out of the stadium and shifts people fast. Also two ways into the city centre and Wirral connections Two ways to South Parkway for away fans. Easy change at Sandhills to Southport and Ormskirk Easy changes at Kirkdale for Kirkby (and Skem when that comes on-line) Easy change to the airport when that comes on line It brings onto line many districts that really need a rapid transit rail connection. It eliminates the need for slow lumbering trams. Remember, the Outer Loop was a part of the original 1970's Merseyrail metro plan, maybe why it is kept intact inc' bridges. Budget cuts stopped the implementation. The curves to Rice Lane were not in this plan, neither was the Kirkdale tunnel. Now it looks like a great enhancement to the city's transport and to a footy club as well. LFC and EFC could both have a stadium at Walton Hall Park and the station serve both. WHP is not far from both clubs. The park is by far the better solution to Stanley Park which is on the wrong side of Queens Drive. Queens Drive outwards had dual carriageway trunk roads and east access to the East Lancs Rd and Motorways.

LFC have been granted planning permission for their stadium in Stanley Park. They desperately need a high throughput Merseyrail station. Hence the adjacent, well not that near, Canada Dock Branch Line being considered for Merseyrail. EFC at Kirkby need the Kirkby Merseyrail station, which is not on the doorstep, enlarging to give a high throughput. There is no joined up thinking. It would be best to have a station under the two stadia to allow fans to access the stands directly. Lords Cricket ground are proposing this. The ground consists of the main cricket ground and right next to it is the Nursery end, which was used for practising. Named so because it was a nursery at one time. Tunnels using the cut and cover method were run under the Nursery end for access to Marylebone station in the 1890s. One tunnel serves Marylebone station while the other two were for storing trains. and are now disused. They propose using the through tunnel as a station for direct access into the stands and the other two for a gym, sports injuries treatment, or whatever. Times Article Below the three tunnels under the Nursery end, being built. Lords only own the top 18" of land and can't put large buildings up. Now they can as they have bought two of the tunnels. Integrated stations is what LFC and EFC should be made to incorporate into their stadia. It all makes so much sense. A high throughput rapid transit rail link must be a precursor for a new stadium. No link. No Stadium. Rapid-transit access s the key. Taking a Merseyrail train from any part of Merseyside to a stadium and walking directly into the stadium stands from the station in a covered stadium in winter will attract many people to the venues. A sure success. Generates money to buy players to make a top club. Below: the stand with the media bubble is to be made much larger with its own rapid-transit rail station underneath giving direct access.

Walton Hall Park is the ideal site for a stadium. Rapid-transit rail line right into the park (a tunnel from Kirkdale exists into the site), shifting half the capacity in an hour. Major trunk roads Easy access to motorways lots of space Minimum interference to residents Easy to get to fro all fans Easy mainline rail connections Near GP The map below The red is the proposed recommissioned Outer-Loop line - still with trackbed and bridges intact. This brings on-line: Walton Hall Park, Norris Green, Clubmoor, West Derby, Knotty Ash, Broad Green, Childwall, Gateacre, Woolton & Halewood - eventually. The catchment area of the line is substantial. The red star at the top at the end of the red line is Kirkdale station. The red star at the bottom of the red line is Hunts X station. The red/blue line is the Kirkdale-Rice Lane tunnel. The red/blue star at the top is Walton Hall Park where an Everton FC or a shared stadium could be built with a high throughput station. Trains leave the stadium both ways. The green dotted line is the existing Northern line that creates a full city loop with the Outer-Loop - trains can just go around the loop, as they partially do on the Wirral Line. Or just around the loop on matchdays to shift fans. The pink lines are existing Northern Lines to: Southport, Ormskirk and Kirkby. The light blue line is Edge Hill to the west and where it meets the red line is Broad Green. This could be made into a junction, as was planned to be so in the 1970's. That means the north and southern sections of the Outer-Loop can be two separate loops and will run right into Edge Hill junction and onto Lime St, or into Central if the Wapping tunnel is branched into Central. Or down the Waterloo tunnel and onto the Northern Line at Waterloo Dock. All in the future, but would make the loop quickly accessible to the city centre. The light blue star at the bottom is Liverpool South Parkway station with connections to London and Manchester and beyond. The rails already bought for collapsed Merseytram scheme are stored in Hull and can be used for the loop offsetting some costs. Most of the line is in place...Also a point was that stadia should be NOT granted PP unless rapid-transit rail is incorporated in the design - Merseyrail is superb and can alleviate concerned for locals. It can increase attendances. The rail setup shifts people fast with connections all over Merseyside. If a shared stadium is on the agenda, then Walton Hall Park is the ideal choice as the fans can be shifted in and out very fast and en-mass. It is cheap to implement as well. It is cheap to implement as most is actually in place. This gives a big bang-for-buck. Trams were dropped and were a disaster of a plan. Kirkby to Liverpool was 5 minutes faster than the bus. They cannot shift 30,000 per hour. Merseyside has a rapid-transit rail system with connections to mainlines stations, that can shift people fast and in great volume. The answer is there waiting. The line, the Outer Loop, is existing, as the bridges and trackbed is still there, even a long tunnel right to WHP. Lords has three tunnels under and the plan is to use one or two of them to shift fans right into the stadium. Good thinking. It can be done at WHP and a Merseyrail line to serve the population as well outside match days. The Outer Loop covers districts MerseyTram was to cover - but does it quickly. The existing disused infrastructure is mothballed. Cost is cheap as most is still intact. MerseyTram lines were bought and stored in Hull, and can be used. Merseyrail is the largest rapid-transit underground/overground system outside of London. It has 68 stations on fully electric lines. It is easily expandable to cover more of its targeted population that any other metropolitan railway. See: Extending Merseyrail Merseyrail The proposal is a complete rail loop. The prime point is that the city should not give planning permission to any large venue unless high throughput rapid-transit rail links are a part of the design, able to shift half of the capacity in one hour. Liverpool has a comprehensive rapid-transit rail network, which has increased in size over the past 20 years and it should be used to the full. Not to incorporate this rapid-transit network is totally foolish. Everyone gains, especially the fans and football club. It should be, if no rapid-transit rail link, no stadium. If it is there they should be forced to use it. Below: if the disused lines on Merseyside are used this is what you get: Put a stadium on one of these fast lines and the fans will flock in.

The Mersey is different to other rivers in that it is not funnel shaped. It has "narrows" between Liverpool and B'head. The narrows causes the tide to run fast. This keep this part deep water - 90 foot at low tide in the centre. The tide is the world's 4th highest at 32 foot. The tide dumps sand in the wide estuary as the water slows after the narrows. Hence the large sand banks. Any interference with this current would upset the balance of the river. It was interfered with when a channel was dredged to Eastham for the Manchester Ship Canal. The south end docks river banks started to silt up as the Wirral side took more current. Barca is in the Med which is like a lake. Tidal power? It could be a barrage, which then is OK for a stadium in river water as the tide does not matter as the water is pretty still. If under-river turbines in the strong tidal current turning both ways then no playing with the rivers flow.

The Kings Dock Arena was planned before The UN came in and assessed the World Heritage Site. It was requested to be given a bye as it was already scheduled for an arena. The UN let it go. They should not have. The Arena is an abomination. A glorified IKEA shed next to the largest collection of grade 1 listed buildings in the country - Albert Dock. What an embarrassment. Look at this: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/KingsDock.html The Clarence Dock area is important to the city's history and heritage - no one with any civic pride would want a concrete footy ground anywhere near it!!!! 1.5 million starving Irish went through the dock gates in the famine - it is historic. There are no discussions for a stadium at Clarence Dock/Liverpool Waters. Lack of Joined Up Thinking over Kings Dock - which should NOT be repeated at Clarence Dock The city could have had it all: A vibrant residential and leisure complex on the quays of the Kings & Queens Dock branches, Dukes Dock and Coburg Dock. An arena and associated hotels on the land side of Queens Dock's quays with an adjacent rapid-transit rail Merseyrail station. What the city ended up with was a fantastic waterscape turned into a lack-lustre landscape with an arena looking like an IKEA shed with associated concrete multi-storey car park and hotels. A vibrant residential and leisure waterscape is lost. It is abundantly clear the current Kings Dock arena project should have been built on the Baltic Triangle or the land side of the Queens Dock's quays only yards away across the Wapping Dock with an adjacent historic rapid-transit rail station served by a tunnel, built by Stephenson. The existing Kings, Dukes and Queens Branch Dock could have been excavated back to their original quays and a wonderful water based Amsterdam style of environment created. The Kings and Queens Docks were the only docks that had branch dock piers projecting from the river wall into the expanse of Wapping Dock. These piers formed the quays with sheds being built upon and made up the branch docks. If top class buildings were built upon these piers with panoramic view restaurants on the pier ends, a dramatic sight would have been created from the Dock Road on the land side across the Queens and Wapping Dock waters with the Anglican cathedral behind. All this potential was squandered by lack of vision and bowing to short term money making objectives. Ideal Location For Kings Dock Arena Below: The tower is the proposed Queens Dock Tower. The picture is Queens Dock with Kings Dock to the right. On the land side of Queens Dock on the waters edge, where the tower is proposed, would have been an ideal location for the arena with a water facing aspect. The area within the red lines. The Queens Tower could have been located on one of the branch docks giving a superior location with superior views. The marked area is full of ramshakle industrial buildings awaiting clearance. Top right of the picture is where the arena was built. Where land tapers into the water is where the branch docks were filled in. Note that to the right of the Customs House built over the graving docks, one of the branch docks has been filled in to create a car park. The disused Wapping rail tunnel emerges to the bottom right just off picture, which is easily brought back into service serving the complex and surrounding districts. Large footy grounds should be where there is lots of land around them for safety with an integrated rapid-transit rail station shifting at least half the capacity per hour. As is the case in London, with the Emirate and Wembley, where the station was rebuilt to shift more fans. Liverpool has such suitable sites, Walton Hall Park being one. The heritage and history of Liverpool is more important than a misplaced footy ground and arena.

This is all fantasy land. The renders were put together by student, using CAD, prompted by an Evertonian on a Skyscraper forum. A notion of their fantasy. This stadium is on the top of the newly built Canal Link. Duh!!! Also some tall block is on the flats at West Waterloo Dock. Duh! There is no room around the stadium. Some points to bring you down to earth: Peel have no plans in Liverpool Waters to build a stadium. None on their web site. None on the Liverpoolwiki: Liverpool Waters The Liverpool Waters web site shows no stadium. UNESCO (the UN) have approved the outline, for the World Heritage Site, and no stadium is mentioned. A stadium does not conform to the World Heritage status of the site. The City council know of no stadium in the plans. The council are to approve plans for Liverpool Waters in Dec' and no stadium is on them. In London they will not grant PP permission to stadia unless rapid-transit rail is adjacent to shift half the capacity in an hour: Emirates is an e.g. - 5 stations are around it. Wembley stadium, with reduced capacity had to rebuild Wembley Park station to shift more fans by rapid-transit rail. LFC cannot go over 60,000 (they want 75,000) on their stadium unless a new rapid-transit station is built on a newly opened Canada Dock branch line on Merseyrail metro. Extending Merseyrail metro This stadium is hemmed-in for the crowds it would attract. A safety problem. The stadium will be a nuisance to the residents who would buy the surround tall apartments. The stadium is a off-putting, as football fans have a poor reputation. The stadium would encourage litter in the docks waters - environmental damage. A large concrete lump used 25 days a year would kill the area dead - it is a World Heritage Site. The stadium is exposed to the cutting Liverpool Bay winds. The stadium is prone to corrosion exposed to wind lashed salt air. The council, has talked again of a stadium share by both clubs. Walton Hall Park is the ideal location with rapid-transit rail run in, that could shift 3/4 of the capacity in an hour. If not WHP, it will be Stanley Park. etc. etc. It is best to get out of fantasy land. This stadium notion on a World Heritage Site, is not firm or on paper of any sort. Walton Hall Park with a rapid transit station, shifting 30-40,000 per hour, on a newly opened, mothballed, Outer Loop line is the best option. It will not meet with great opposition, as any proposal to build on a World Heritage Site would. The UN would have a lot to say if plans were submitted. The World Heritage Site is to promote the city and retain its heritage and history. A concrete lump will not do that at all. Walton Hall Park Also this about extending Mrseyrail and the Outer Loop Line: http://tinyurl.com/Extend-Merseyrail-CLICK-HERE

The keep EFC out of Kirkby brigade Do I need to explain that?

It was lifted from my post on the KEIOC forum, as he politely said. Nothing wrong with that, however changing it is a little out of order. Commenting on a post is the usual way, leaving the content intact. Evertonians do wander around the EFC forums.

That is their handle. I would rather EFC be in a fine site near the river inside Liverpool. However Kirkby doesn't upset me that much, just the poor quality design of the stadium.

.....