Calico

Nothing i said was offensive the point being Hibbert and Osman have nothing to do with Vic and this topic i've not once seen anything in this thread about Hibbert and Osman bar what i have already pointed out and no mention of youth product players either so please read through your own posts before telling others to when you have not even posted what your telling people to read , Any player regardless of home grown or not get bad press if they are playing poor being home grown bodes no weight in if your playing crap or not.

 

How is he giving him time to fulfil his potential when he doesn't get any time on the pitch he's 21 not a 16/17 year old who needs to be slowly bedded in and by your own theory on short-sightedness how much longer and how many more games does he need to show his worth? I would say 80 odd is quite a few to be honest, Also it not accur to you the reason he wasn't picked when we had no fit strikers was down to his poor attitude which just shows how much he really appreciates the opportunity he has.

 

You seriously want me to list players that are 19 and play first team football come on you must be taking the piss their are possibly hundreds playing across Europe at a top tier level!!

 

Not much point carrying on this as i have said it keeps drifting off topic but im more then willing to be proven wrong.

You're entirely right and I am entirely wrong. Sorry to have wasted your time.

What are you talking about? The English Prem is the BEST LEAGUE in the world an thats a fact, Every player wants to play here, an Jags has played some of the best strikers in the world, Rooney,Drogba,Torres to name a few. Don't think Jags will be fit to play against Benfica.

Why are the best players in the world playing in Spain, and a couple in Italy. Certainly, a higher percentage of the very best are in those leagues.

Shearer didn't win the Prem either. Just thought I'd point that out

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with the line-up but I'd probably put Bergkamp with Henry since their partnership was so very, very special.

The only issue I really have with Giggs is that I don't think he's ever started more than a certain number of games a season - it is something silly and I was shocked to hear the statistic myself - but then, for his position, he is probably still the most consistent player

When everybody is fit and available for selection a 4-4-2 would look something like this.....

Bilyaletdinov .. Arteta ... ???? .... Pienaar, With the last selection between Cahill, Fellaini, Osman, and Rodwell.

I'm not sure that Fellaini would be an automatic choice, he needs to improve his all-round game.

Aye, tis why I said possibly both Felli and Arts. I agree that he does need to improve his all round performances, though from what I've seen I do think he has the all round game to do that. Hopefully by the time Moyes goes to a 4-4-2 Felli will be ready for that role next to Arteta

I no that being ill isn't an excuse but i wanna just focus on this a moment.

 

First off he had an illness an surly a bad one if he's losts weight(7lbs was mentioned), which means he either been in bed alot or simplely hasn't been able to eat, Meaning he has less energy, giving him less time to train, meaning that his fitness will be behind everyone else.

 

His last performance against Wigan was his best, alright it was only 20 mins, but maybe he was finally fully fit an recovered. Only time will tell.

Entirely agree.

I think people need to realise that Felliani is still adapting to a new league, and forget what he achieved last year. He is quality, just needs time to focus. Maybe when the squad settles, then we will see the best of all our players, well maybe all.

Once again, something I can agree with. It's good to know that I'm not going crazy with this opinion and that there is a reason to have faith with him.

I think with most of our performances so far this season we really really need a creative player like Mikel. He just seems to dictate the play into more of a progressive style whenever he plays.

Pienaar out of position? Where??? He's been playing left-midfield ever since he arrived or am I stupid and missed something? Also, his technical levels went up by about 50% once Arteta got injured so I still don't see what that has to do with where he played.

Great article, great player. Far better in every way than that something that left us the other week, still upset fans erected banners in begging him to stay. Hence why as a fanbase, we get taken for a ride by the establishment so often.

I agree entirely.

As for Distin - more of this kind of thing, especially combined with good performances and he'll be a legend no doubt Still, it was very, very funny

The fans reactions were out of order either way. As to why they can't control themselves is beyond me and the simplified explanation of 'things happening' and 'passion is passion' just doesn't pass at all since surely the same thing can be said about the players?

Not that I'm a fan of what Adebayor did; it was tactless and not a good reflection on himself. Personally, I think he should have scored a couple then ran to the Arsenal bench to celebrate in front of Wenger - really make it stick, you know?

I love how so many members show up in the match threads whenever we lose.

Your comments dont tie in with what people are saying nor do they make much sense to be honest, 'we pay players very handsomely' yes we do and the point being Vic gets paid well by this club and has had many chances to prove why we do so and as mentioned bar the very few games he has shown abit of worth he has been shite.

 

Who mentioned Hibbert and Osman or their work rate's they are nothing to do with this we are talking about Vic who is the complete opposite of the point you failed to make. Also age has nothing to do with it he would have been 19 around the time you mentioned which in todays world is not young for a footballer to be playing first team football so if he was good enough and Moyes does have as much faith as you seem to think he has in him im sure he would have played more and carried on doing so to now.

 

I think we all know who picks the team! but as mentioned if you think Moyes has faith in the lads ability then why not play him when we had no fit strikers?

 

In my opinion the lads had enough time and chances to prove himself which like i've said bar the odd "decent" game in Europe and in the League he has been poor, i will let time do the talking on this one

Hibbert and Osman are related to a comment I have made about how the youth products have been getting lots of notice for poor performances compared to other people. Vic comes into the youth product bracket and I just thought it was a trend that had appeared. So, to be honest, please read what I'm saying properly before telling me that what I am saying doesn't make much sense; it offended me so I'll ask you not to do it again.

So how many teams do you know who are full of 19 year-olds? Can you name them and the players?

Moyes hasn't sold him, which is enough for me to think that his reasons for not picking him when we didn't have any forwards was more than about how good he is or isn't. I mean, we have seven other forwards in the squad so why keep one that isn't good enough? Once again, I trust Moyes and right now am happy that he is willing to give a young player to fulfil his potential.

In my opinion casting out players who are only 21 based upon the idea that they've had enough chances is short-sighted and a mistake.

I'm just confident that he'll get his form back and even at this young age consider him a batter player than Cahill. When I compare their all-round ability and how Fellaini has already played for us (last season, obviously) there simply isn't a match.

I've loved Cahill ever since he has played for us but when taking into consider how he seems to force the 4-5-1 and I am desperate to see a 4-4-2 which I think Fellaini or Arteta -- possibly both -- could play well in I am now at a point where I no longer want Cahill be an automatic starter.

lol bit of a contradiction there!

lol well spotted. Getting my own point confused there. What I'm trying to get at is that they haven't been tested on a consistent basis.

Don't be daft, the Villa goal was his fault, yes.

But he's only the best striker in the world. (No, not one of the best, he's miles ahead of torres or anyone else imo). But it was a good game alround for Jagielka imo.

 

our defense has been tested against world class teams, we got points against EVERY one of the 4 teams. we even won against liverpool and Manchester united and should have won against chelsea an arsenal, that's just my opinion though.

(and what would have happened without our injuries?)

 

if defense is our biggest issue, i'm very happy about the squad

So Jags did well enough for 45 minutes. I was as happy as anyone about it and think that he is brilliant for us but the top level of football? I don't know, until he consistently plays against the quality of Villa in something like the Champions League then I think the idea of him being a top level defender is a weak one. Actually, now that I think about it he will play against some good forwards when we play against Benfica and (hopefully) when we progress so I'll guess we'll see.

We beat Liverpool and Manchester United in the league last year and the year before?

Should have won means very little, sadly. If a goal has been scored it is mostly thanks to poor defending so not having enough defenders is never going to help.

That would be about two seasons ago.

Moyes probably never consistently started him because of his age, rather than his form. He certainly looked good in some Euro games and was playing at a decent level in other games at the time.

See I'm not a fan of thinking that players don't want to be on the pitch, at least not under DM. Certainly, there is an annoying culture in this country of judging footballers by their body language like it is some big indicator of whether they care or not - I'm not saying that that's what you're doing, what you said just makes me think of that.

For me, if he was seriously ill then I don't care about his weight. That's not the excuse I'd use to defend him but rather I would say that any serious illness takes time to get over and sadly we haven't really had the playing staff to cover Fellaini until about now so there may be a case of having to play him even though he is not at the right level. Also, contrary to him not wanting to be on the pitch there could be a situation where he is desperate to play in spite of his status of recovering.

Just thought I'd throw out something other than the usual assumption of a player not caring or whatever. Much like with the Yak, actually; the stick he was getting was just stupid.

So putting weight back on means that he is over the illness? This is what I'm trying to work out if it is what you're saying.

Edit: By over the illness I mean in a position to play at the same level as last season.

Hmmm, Jags against Villa when playing for England. I seem to remember the Spaniard making him look a joke, actually.

I am more than a fan of JH. Personally thought he was going to play for one of the best teams in Europe so believe me when I think he can be a top class player but, certainly, just playing RB for Holland doesn't equate to top class. If Nigel de Jong didn't turn into a holding player then I don't think JH would be playing there. Instead, I prefer to see him as a CB and can't wait to see him and Jags there together as both can probably learn from each other whilst creating a great partnership.

Top level of domestic football? I disagree but if you want to go there then how have we fared against the top teams these past two seasons, since that is when the current defence have played with each other mostly? I don't have a good memory playing against what you call the best but maybe my memory is poor.

As for disharmony. It is DM's job to keep players happy, since he is the manager. He has often spoke of us being a team to break into the top four so along those lines we will also be in more competitions (Europe) and surely if we're good enough to be doing both of those things then we're good enough to compete in the domestic cups, after all we did get to the F.A. Cup final last year and the League Cup Semi's the other year . . . with this in mind surely a larger squad is needed thus competition encouraged and then disharmony kept at bay by the manager?

haha exactly Here's hoping that Anichebe returns to the form that had Moyes picking him in the first place

Seriously. After all of the crap that the players who have been attempting to play his role get we seriously need him back just to get certain fans back on to terms with the team. For me, he is talismanic this way - I don't really know a Blue who doesn't love him.

And the people who use this illness as an excuse fail to remember he said himself he'd lost 9lb but had put 7lb of it back on, and that was about a month ago now so I'd expect him to be back to the weight he was at.

Yeah. Put most of the weight back on and he's back to the levels of last season. Is this what you're saying because that sentiment just doesn't make sense?

Seriously. With the sentiment of, 'we pay players very handsomely' for most discussions, - this one included - we may as well all stop going to and watching football because otherwise that's not likely to change.

The point I was making was that players like Hibbert and Osman may not be the best but they work their arses off and if anyone thinks we're too good for players like this then they're living in dream land.

Also, Moyes picks the players. He decides. Nobody else. Do we not trust him? I know I do.

I agree about Osman, c1982, especially since he dropped into CM for about 20 minutes I think it was and looked pretty good... as a holding player as well Maybe against the relatively weak CM of Fulham he could do something similar. I won't expect any surprising moves from Davey, though. Nice and safe I reckon, as always.

Heitinga has played DM before, yes. Mainly for Ajax, if not exclusively I think.

Okay, so Chelsea at the back: Bosingwa, Ferreira, Beletti, Cole, Zhirkov(as cover), Terry, Carvahlo, Alex, Ivanovic

Arsenal: Sagna, Eboue, Vermaelen, Gallas, Clichy, Gibbs, G. Hoyte, Djourou, Senderos, Song, Silverstre, Traore

Liverpool: Johnson, Degen, Kyrgiakos, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Ayala, Aurelio, Dessena, Insua, Darby, Kelly

Right. So. All I'm saying that if DM is telling the truth about wanting to break the top four then we could do with a bigger defensive line.

As for Jags would get into most teams and all of that other stuff...

The fact is that none of our players have been tested at the top level and if they have then haven't come out looking too good. So no, by performance, which is surely how football players should be judged, the fact is that they are not top class defenders. Of course I want them all to prove that they are and I am a fan who doesn't like getting on players backs but the fact is that I'm just not sure that they're good enough to stretch for a season.

Well considering Moyes' success over the past few years I suppose he knows best when it comes to it. With so many players proven to be able to play in that position with varying attributes I can understand why he is taking his time with a younger version. Perhaps the lad will actually be some good and so he is getting the gentle treatment?

maybe cos the negativity is coming from everywhere else and hes point was to build vic up a bit? i think people are very hard on him personally

Agreed. I don't know why the local lads get such a hard time of it. It's almost as if some people don't realise how lucky we really are.

I'm not talking about 7 or 8 top class defenders. We don't even have one

I just find it very strange that a David Moyes squad lacks depth in the defensive positions and am concerned about it.