paul

 

Blue Union are made up of normal people who are supporting the club by doing what they can. Details, how are you/they doing all they can?

 

Protests, meetings, pressure on press, plans designed for a new Goodison. Surely that passes as all they can. Want more from them? Then help them.

 

Yet when I provoked you of not what you can in the right manner you kicked off, so why is it ok for you criticise them for going about the things in a manner you disagree with, but not for me to criticise you? I accidentally no made sense. Provoke someone, then moan when they react and criticise you, you be serious?

 

Below you cririticised my grammar and said a sentence was nonsensical because I missed a word out. I do not wish to enter a petty argument and slanging match over grammar though.

 

 

My reply used your argument style of unconstructive criticism and you tell me to get off my pedestal? Can you not therefore see the hypocrisy in your post? Therefore hypocrisy... hmmm. You're trying hard to sound intelligent and balanced. I feel bad for you, well people who have to put up with you, all the nodding and agreeing that you know all must be so tiresome for them.

 

That reply does not add anything to the debate, again I'm not interested in a slanging match. The point I was making to Matt was that it is easy to point flaws in an argument, but when you're making an effort it's not as easy to look at flaws at all angles, so why not offer support and advice as to how to do things better rather than just have a go at them?

 

 

I demonstrated that I can rip into how you execute your tactics, but what is the benefit of that? ​Demonstrated what? If you can't find flaws in someone else's logic, how can you hold your own as gospel?

 

As above

 

You've asked what I have done. I've done very little since Kirkby. I'm just not that bothered anymore. I am not as passionate as I was, but it is still an interest rather than a passion. Everton is about a piss up to me now I dont care that much win or lose, BUT my point that I'm making is that I respect fans such as the Blue Union who make an effort for something they love, and I will defend people who make an effort for their love. So you make less effort than Matt, yet tare into him for not doing enough. Hypocrisy*?

*assuming your definition.

 

I am not having a go at people for making an effort. I was demonstrating to Matt that it is easy to criticise his effort, just as easy as it his for him to criticise the Blue Union, but as I said what is the point of me criticising him for making an effort? Why not offer suggestions, encouragement or even better help?

 

To see supporters who reckon they're passionate about their but sit on the arses and criticises those for making an effort is pathetic, plus to accuse those people who make an effort as embarrassing? Embarrassing to who? Why would would you feel embarrassed about a passionate Evertonian making an effort? I'm no grammar-nazi, I am actually quite bad it, but you are taking the piss. At least put some effort in making your nonsense legible. Making an effort, how-details? They are a huge embarrassment and a disgrace to the club, only sing when we're losing. Passionate, yes. Misguided, most definitely. Only effort up to now has been some bad press, well done tell me how BU have helped the club in any way. If anything they will be in the minuses column when a potential buyer assesses whether to invest in the club. Seriously who would invest in fans like you/them?

 

After 'their' was supposed to be club. My first response should answer the rest as to what they've done, there's only so much that they can put things to the club. Some ideas may not be worthwhile, but they're trying. Can you come up with ideas yourself on any feature of Everton? Matt did.

 

 

No you didn't get my point.

 

Blue Union are made up of normal people who are supporting the club by doing what they can. theyre trying to do something?

 

This

 

Yet when I provoked you of not what you can in the right manner you kicked off, so why is it ok for you criticise them for going about the things in a manner you disagree with, but not for me to criticise you? I had a bad day yesterday with work, I shouldve raised above the provocation. You can criticize all you like, but dont do it in a belittling manner (intended or not, it came across that way). Its a debate, you're entitled to your opinion. Im also entitled to be offended by said opinion.

 

I was demonstrating to you that it's easy to sit back, make little effort yourself and pick holes in someone making an effort. I was doing to you what you were doing to the Blue Union, and you took offence.

 

 

My reply used your argument style of unconstructive criticism and you tell me to get off my pedestal? Can you not therefore see the hypocrisy in your post? Since youve already admitted to provoking me, I'd ask you to take my response more as defensive than hypocritical.

 

See above, I was purposely provoking you to show you that it's easy to take offence and respond via accusations. So next time you read a Blue Union member argue back in a manner you don't like hopefully you will realise that you do too.

 

I demonstrated that I can rip into how you execute your tactics, but what is the benefit of that? I demonstrated, and have argued many times in this thread and others, how to rip into theirs, I just dont want to keep repeating myself. The benefit is that, going through it time and again, the arguments get rephrased and the message can be transmitted and received in different ways. Maybe a fresh approach or idea will come of it. Challenging opinions, tactics, ideas etc promotes new opinions, tactics and ideas. How can it be anything but a good thing?

 

Approach them and offer your help. It's not easy to orchestrate a perfectly manouvered attack of the board. Is there a guidline to how to do it? The Blue Union will be made up of a small no of activist, then many people who support their ideals. So how do you get every single supporter of their ideals to act in a manner befitting to yourself? That is not easy at all. In fact you touch on this further down where you mention about not all of them following the principles the BU is founded on.

 

 

 

 

To see supporters who reckon they're passionate about their but sit on the arses and criticises those for making an effort is pathetic, plus to accuse those people who make an effort as embarrassing? Embarrassing to who? Why would would you feel embarrassed about a passionate Evertonian making an effort?

 

Im embarrassed about the way they go about showing their passion and I believe it is detrimental to the clubs image. Yes, their intentions for change are good and their energy and determination is commendable. But theyre approach following the clubs refusal to work with them has not been constructive, its not been balanced. Most of them seem to have jumped on the bandwagon due to a well founded frustration, compounded by the snub from the powers at EFC and dont follow the principles the BU was founded on. They'd rather bleat the same chants over and over whilst not actually contributing anything productive. Ive tried to speak with BU supporters and theyre a mixed group; a few are reasonable but the majority Ive encountered think that because I have a bit of faith in Kenwright and dont support their group that they dont listen to anything I say, much like a child putting their fingers in their ears and going "nah nah nah nah, not listening". I want change. We need change. What I want is for people to put forward a balanced argument, to acknowledge the good thats been done then weigh it against the cock ups.

 

For the record, I travel every week and live abroad now, so its not like I can get over at the moment to do anything more productive. If I move home, I would love to try and help in whatever way I can. I gave 1 example of how I try to help, there are others but im not going sit here and document everything.

 

One final question on this, then im stopping because im tired of this argument (overall, not just with you). What have they actually done with all this? What more have they achieved compared to the guy sitting on his arse?

 

Well I don't feel embarrassed on how other choose to show their passion, Everton are made up of many fans I accept that fans will show passion in different ways to one another. I applaud people who have the strength to go against the grain and do not feel embarrassed by it.

 

Re the clubs refusal to work with them and their reaction to it. Have you ever spoke to the club? They frustrate the hell out of you.

 

What have they achieved? They have come up with a plans on how to do Goodison showing how it can work on various budgets and stages. They also put the pressure on the board and the board delivered in January. Will the board have delivered if they didn't put pressure on? Who knows.

comments like that imply people who are against the BU aren't real supporters..idiots who spout shite like this from either side make either argument less respectable

Why does it? It is not a criticism it a question about reflection on who you are as an Evertonian, I 'm an observer nowadays whereas once upon a time I was a supporter. As a supporter I would make an effort to do what I could to improve Everton to any degree as opposed to a passive who finds Everton an interesting subject.

My tactics are poor?! Get off your pedestal. I have no delusions of grandeur unlike some. What tactics? my point was I support my club by doing what I can and I do support them rather than follow them, which is not what you were implying:

 

 

 

Just because I think the BU are an embarrassment more than a help does not make me, or any other of the people who think theyre a joke, less of a supporter. I support Everton, not that bunch of clowns (queue predictable jokes of our club being run by clowns). The Blue Union are trying 1 way of change. Though their intentions are good, their tactics are so poorly executed I believe they are doing more damage than good...

 

Out of curiousity, may I ask what you have done to right the wrongs?

No you didn't get my point.

Blue Union are made up of normal people who are supporting the club by doing what they can.

Yet when I provoked you of not what you can in the right manner you kicked off, so why is it ok for you criticise them for going about the things in a manner you disagree with, but not for me to criticise you?

My reply used your argument style of unconstructive criticism and you tell me to get off my pedestal? Can you not therefore see the hypocrisy in your post?

I demonstrated that I can rip into how you execute your tactics, but what is the benefit of that?

You've asked what I have done. I've done very little since Kirkby. I'm just not that bothered anymore. I am not as passionate as I was, but it is still an interest rather than a passion. Everton is about a piss up to me now I dont care that much win or lose, BUT my point that I'm making is that I respect fans such as the Blue Union who make an effort for something they love, and I will defend people who make an effort for their love.

To see supporters who reckon they're passionate about their but sit on the arses and criticises those for making an effort is pathetic, plus to accuse those people who make an effort as embarrassing? Embarrassing to who? Why would would you feel embarrassed about a passionate Evertonian making an effort?

.

Right Matt, the quoting system hasn't quite worked:-

By protesting they are highlighting a problem, and are publicly highlighting that there needs improvements in the boardroom. Problem was already well known for years.

If a player plays badly do you think Moyes has a go at the player? I do. Well by protesting that is one way of highlighting to the board that they are not performing well enough. It's a method of communication. Fair enough, but again how effective is it? Also Employer and employee communication is one thing, customer to supplier is another.

You've got a tactic of spending as much money on merchandising as possible. Commendable. In the realisation that Everton are skint, I take it that this now means that you are purposely purchasing more than previously? Not delibrately, I buy when I can afford it (which has only been in the last 5 years or so) and what I like. The LCS shirts in the last few years and Nike stuff has given more reason to buy. My point was this is my way of helping which is effective, and not refusing to buy which hinders (although I can understand the reasons behind refusing, I dont agree with it).

Now I'm sure you'll agree that this tactic would be better if more Evertonians were doing the same. So are you making moves to encourage more Evertonians to do the same? Can you give me examples on here where you have actively chose to do so? Ive communicated to family and friends offers or new stuff coming in. Ive encouraged everyone I know pretty much to come the game with me when Im home (since I now live abroad this is only a few games a year, hopefully will change soon though) and usually get 4-5 of us together. Ive put any links for 24hr sales up on here.

One obstacle you have now doubt met in this is the no colours attitude that may Evertonians have. How are you getting on in tackling this? Any problems? Have you asked for help at all? Can you explain what you mean by "no colours".

I haven't come across any movements by anyone to tackle this, so maybe you're struggling to get your message across, or you haven't made any movements. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Should I criticise you for struggling to get the message out. Or should I give you a word of encouragement for trying to get the message out along with advice or help? Look, I think the BU intentions initially were good but poorly executed. They then started to contradict themselves somewhat and whenever they give statements its the same format; start reasonable for the 1st paragraph before descending into sniping. The biggest thing I have a problem with is their either refusal or inability to give a balanced argument.

I think your tactics are poorly executed, your intentions are fine, but just telling mates about offers? You've looked into the merchandising yet not understood the stumbling block of fans not buying replica clothing as a fashion statement (no colours), so your tactics are poorly researched. See my point???

dont mean to sound rude but thats a bunch of crap.

 

1. What are they doing about it? Parading around like sheep is not a solution nor is it constructive. They have found no potential investment which is what theyre moaning about. Their help was rejected (if it was ever properly offered) by Everton so they started to sulk.

 

2. It is easy to pull their tactics apart because the "tactics" are rubbish.

 

3. My tactics as a detractor? I will continue to support the club by getting to as many games as I can and buy as much merchandise as I can. I would not stop going to the game / buying shirts / etc in protest as this then stops the club getting money, money it needs. Also, since im not a professional in Premiership football business management and economics, Ive frankly got nothing to offer.

 

Not doing anything does not make you any less of a supporter. Walking around spouting the same drivel like a spoilt child not getting its own way is just an embarrassment to themselves and the club, and also does not make you less of a supporter. There is no perfect solution to the situation we are in, but im damn sure the way the BU conduct themselves is nothing but a negative mark against the club.

By protesting they are highlighting a problem, and are publicly highlighting that there needs improvements in the boardroom.

If a player plays badly do you think Moyes has a go at the player? I do. Well by protesting that is one way of highlighting to the board that they are not performing well enough. It's a method of communication.

You've got a tactic of spending as much money on merchandising as possible. Commendable. In the realisation that Everton are skint, I take it that this now means that you are purposely purchasing more than previously?

Now I'm sure you'll agree that this tactic would be better if more Evertonians were doing the same. So are you making moves to encourage more Evertonians to do the same? Can you give me examples on here where you have actively chose to do so?

One obstacle you have now doubt met in this is the no colours attitude that may Evertonians have. How are you getting on in tackling this? Any problems? Have you asked for help at all?

I haven't come across any movements by anyone to tackle this, so maybe you're struggling to get your message across, or you haven't made any movements. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Should I criticise you for struggling to get the message out. Or should I give you a word of encouragement for trying to get the message out along with advice or help?

I don't get the criticism of the Blue Union, they're not happy so are taking responsibility themselves to do something about it. They are not professionals but are pulling their weight the best they can.

IT's easy to sit back and pull holes in tactics, but then the detractors should have a look at their own tactics and ask themselves if they are are merely an observer of Everton or a supporter of Everton.

No, you deffo wont need to. They're only needed for the home derby.

What questions were asked?

Well, who do you think? Or who outside of Everton would suit him best?

YNWA is overrated. At least Everton played around with the words and tune to give it an original slant

As mentioned before it was 2unlimited Get ready for this

Before Z Cars, I think it was the the tune Monty Python adapted for their theme tune.

If anyone else here is into the singing at Everton there's another standing area planned for the Chelsea match in the Street End Block 4 Rows LL to OO seat nos 100-104. The last ones ones have definitely shown the potential of these singing areas just more fans are needed for now if anyone's interested?

Not seen a thread on here for this, but if anyone's into the singing side at Everton some Evertonians are asking for fans to go in the Gwladys Street Block 4, seats mm to mm 101-105 for the West Brom match

Oh I do like to be beside the seaside.....

stadium is a huge part of your identity.

If Barcelona played at the Dell, what that change your perception of them as a club?

Iweartrainees@wsag.com

Yes Spurs have done it for years.

We definitely sung it early 60s and it went out of fashion for ages. We then revived it in the 80s

I have a 45 called 'roaring and scoring' About the 66 season Unfortunately it is also about the reds as well.

 

Introducing Everton... and then goes on to name the team... Introducing Liverpool....ditto.

I've heard of that one yes. I take it, it's rubbish! Did the fans everdo their own lp's. I've seen the likes of Celtic, Rangers even Liverpool had fans recording songs in the 60s, what about Everton?

I must be old, I still sing an old song to irritate the reds in work.

 

"We hate Bill Shankley and we hate St John, but most of all we hate Big Ron, and we'll hang the Kopites one by one, ON THE BANKS OF THE ROYAL BLUE MERSEY"

 

Hmm not sure how many of you even remember who we used to sing about there.

Any other good ones from when you were younger? Any rarer ones?

Recorded song is Altogether now.

Terrace song its too hard to pick, I'll have different favourite each week.

There was a good one to Waltzing Matilda, can't remember it though

Well Paul, let's use another metaphor. Last year a good friend of mine was mugged, whilst watching Everton in Athens. The next day we where having a drink in a bar and explained to some 'genuine' locals what had happened the night before. The locals could not apologise more for the behaviour of fellow countrymen of theirs. Do you think our answer was to not acknowledge their apologies. I don't think so, in fact it went a long way towards my friend forgetting his bad experience.

 

Further to this what these pricks don't realise is that while they can hide behind their friends/ stewards/ police or whatever as they sidle back to their coaches (and I know they where on coaches), the rest of the genuine blameless fans who travel independently then, may, have to run the gauntlet of opposing fans who have witnessed atrocious chanting. I have seen that happen in the past, from us and others by the way.

 

Even having a pint in a pub close to the ground after the game and chatting away, we where questioned about those chants and as I totally disagreed with it, I offered my apologies, a rather courteous thing to do, I thought anyway.

 

Either way, it was unwarranted, unnecessary and unfortunately highlights the sign of the times.

When a foreigner gets mugged here I don't feel the need to apologise. If a Spurs fan asked me about it I would said they were dickheads. If he questioned me about it then I would have had to tell them to speak to the fans who done it, I'm not a mind reader to their actions just because they share an interest!

Okay, so the Spurs fans that heard the chanting said to each other "Oh look at Joe and Fred there singing about Jews."

Nah, they said "Look at those Everton fans (Of which Beard was part of) singing about Jews"

 

I don't think he needed to apologise, just felt as if he should.

I doubt Beard was part of those Everton fans singing it. I'm sure that the Spurs fans seen the small no. of Everton fans singing it and the large no. of Everton fans not singing it

Because they're representing Everton fans, and it's embarrassing to be associated with that sort of anti-Semitism.

 

I suppose it's a bit like if you go out with a mate, and he's drunk, being a bit of an idiot, knocking into people, shouting his mouth off, you feel the need to apologise to people. It's not you that's being an idiot but you feel bad/embarrassed.

They're not mates they have nothing to do with the man. If someone I don't know acts an idiot it's absolutely nothing to do with me.

People represent themselves, the fact that they share an interest is neither here nor there.

If you go to a gig of a band you like and someone else there you don't know acts like an idiot then you wouldn't feel like you have apologise for them.

Absolutely disgusted with chants from a small section of Evertonians, if they can be called that, standing at the back of the lower section at White Hart Lane yesterday. The singing referring to 'Hitler' and how we was an Evertonian and the anti-semetic chanting was abhorrent. All those involved should be ashamed of themselves BUT the ignorant intolerables are probably totally unaware that this man may have caused heartache and attempts to destroy their own families involving their grandparents etc. Ashamed that I have to associate myself with these morons and finding myself apologising on their behalf. Went some way to ruining a great day out. I do hope the cameras/ sound never picked up on it.

I don't get why you have to apologise on their behalf?

Just because you share the same interest in a football team?

Best keep your seat. Imagine getting best 6-1 at home to Huddersfield!