carlmc25

We actually conceded more goals in 04/05 then we did last season...46 to 45 (though as sixteen of those were in three games v Arsenal & Spurs the point's valid for the other thirty-five games).

Yes I wasn't very clear actually, last season we didn't let in that many goals, the problem was we hardly kept any clean sheets. I'd rather be thumped 7-0 then keep 6 clean sheets than let in a goal a game. The problem is the clean sheets, rather than the amount we are scoring. It's infuriating that we just can't seem to lock a game down, you always think we'll concede.

 

In my eyes no doubt, he switched off and got the wrong side of Agbangawhore.

 

Part of the blame for 1 point over 3 must be put on the ref though. Shocking decision at 1-0 when baines was tripped in the box directly in front of him. But we should know by now that we can't really on ref's... especially a ref with a teenage boys haircut!!!

yeah it was Distin's fault, he just didn't jump until the ball was past him even though it literally skimmed his head and Agbonlahor was right behind him, very VERY poor defending. All he had to do was header it out and that was game won. He had another excellent game apart from that but once again he makes a very poor error, ever since he's come into the team we can't buy a clean sheet. I don't care how well he apparently is playing, the unit with him in it doesn't work (it didn't work with Heitinga either). Give Heitinga a go alongside Jagielka, I can't see how they can do any worse, be handy if Fellaini was back there as well rather than being nowhere in sight when Petrov is lining one up from 30 yards.

Our goals against is the reason we had a poor season last year, the season we finished fourth was done on the back of a load of 1-0 wins, until we can keep clean sheets we'll be in for tough times. We will always find a way to score goals, especially now Cahill is back up front rather than the abysmal, lazy Beckford, we just need to keep some clean sheets.

Beckford's a donkey, be made up to see him go to be honest. Sad to see Arteta go, he's my favourite player even if he hasn't been at it for the past 12 months. Pity the Yak is going as well but Moyes just won't play him anyway.

don't worry Moyes will soon knock that on sight shooting out of him...

another negative post from Hafnia, what a shocker...

Can I ask one question to the positive fans among us.

Do any of you guys accept that as the financial decline has occurred on bills watch for the last 11 years that he has to take responsibility?

A simple yes or no will do.

But are we? I don't really look at the figures that much but I would assume if we wold say Fellain, Rodwell and Jags we'd probably be better off than when BK took over and still have a better team, so have we declined financially or are we simply more in monetary debt but much richer in assets? I thought the debt was something like £70m? that could be virtually wiped out by selling Jags, Fellaini, Arteta, Rodwell, Baines and still leave us with a far better team than when he took over wouldn't it?

If BK hadn't backed Moyes would Moyes still be here, would we still be in the Premiership? if not, wouldn't we be in even bigger trouble? maybe BK's spending has actually put us in a healthier position as dropping to the Championship would cost us about £20m a year wouldn't it?

All I know is I expect the professional businessmen running the club to sort it out as I assume they have a better idea than those on those board, with all due respect.

Great post earlier Avinalaff, I'm like you, yes I love Everton but I'm also a realist and appreciate you can't win them all. I want us to win as much as anyone but at the end of the day, there's more important things to worry about! I'm actually more frustrated by performances like Saturday than the performance of the board, I know we may not be in the best financial position but we have a very good team and there is no excuse for the lack of desire and lack of urgency shown on Saturday - like the first half of last season. Moyes has built an excellent team but I am starting to feel he may have run out of ideas at Everton, he may just have gone stale. Hopefully he will turn it around again as he always has but the players need to start turning up.

 

 

The same being that everton fans don't need to be experts to see he is way out of his depth. This is the second time a group of fans have exposed the incompetencies of a board that have failed to deliver on so many things. Quite embarrassing.

 

Clearly this was a quickly arranged interview designed to try and dilute the impact of the peoples group transcript. Why does it have to come to this to get communication.

 

Get an interim board in and get this club sold. We are a laughing stock. I await the £10m bid for Jagielka and £10m for Rodwell.

I surely can't be the only one getting sick of your constant negative ranting. The only reason we are a laughing stock is not the board, it's for having some of the most miserable, fickle and depressing fans in the country who as soon as things aren't rosy turn on the players, turn on the manager, turn on the board at the drop of a hat. One minute Jags is brilliant, the next he's poor, one minute Arteta is a genius, the next he's a passenger, one minute Moyes is the saviour, the next he's a joker who hasn't got a clue on tactics, players etc. I still remember when we had Walter Smith (a truly awful manager) and fans would start booing after about 10 minutes if we weren't winning - pathetic.

We're going into this season with the same team as last year (except Pienaar), last year everyone was flying thinking we would finish top 4 then a terrible start ruined us. This season everyone is acting all doom and gloom, why exactly? we have the same team who finished 7th after an absolutely disgraceful start and who never really played anywhere near their potential, plus we have Barkley coming through.

EVERYONE, BK included, knows we need a new striker and a winger, everyone is disappointed we haven't got either but so what, get on with it and do what you're supposed to do 'support' the club.

I read a lot of the BK interview with Blue Union, I appreciated his honesty yet can't help feel sorry for him and feel that if that sort of info gets out then we will be a laughing stock and it will put off potential investors. Sometimes keeping problems in house is a lot better than advertising them to the whole world.

Anyway, I for one am sick of the negative crap being spouted by many on these boards. The lack of signings may be part of the reason so many fans are going into this season with such low expectations and negative outlook, but a major part of the reason is the snide comments and constant vitriol from many of our fans spreading their ridiculously ott negative views. get a grip.

Pre season is over, the reality starts now and moaning about the team, the board etc isn't going to help anyone and won't improve any performances. What will help is our 'supporters' getting behind the team and roaring them to victory after victory, BK will be one of those.

Trying to get rid of BK and getting an interim board would be an absolute disaster imo and lead to a huge downward spiral. I can't believe people will go on about others getting taken over like Blackburn, ffs they are a laughing stock, even amongst their own fans. Lost to Wolves, sold their best player for £16m and replaced him with some makeweight Scottish striker, rumours of takeovers all over the place. Why would anyone want that? Be careful what you wish for.

Anyway, next time I log in will be to read Romey's winning match report.

It's time for the moaners to shut up and stop disrupting the fans and the team, for everyone to get behind the club in it's tough times and maybe we'll rise out of it.

COYB. always.

I see what your saying Carl, but his show production company success does not interest us. His everton football club company has performed terribly year on year in a financial sense. I think the issues people have is that the debts are bad and if the banks come asking for the money the only function to generate it would be to sell the players, like what happened to pompy. And no one wants that.

 

The longer evertons financial problems last, the closer that comes as a possibility.

I think these movements are popping up because for a lot of us it's squeaky bum time, and we don't wanna see the club decline on the field in the same way it has off the field.

That is the problem and selling players must be a realistic possibility as it appears we have pushed our finances as far as we are willing to to back Moyes. The good thing is that we do have players we can sell that would wipe out a huge chunk of our debt without really having a massive impact on our team. The problem is that if BK hadn't have backed Moyes by raising money selling Bellefield etc, would Moyes still even be here or would he have become too frustrated and walked out, leaving us with someone like Allardyce and on a serious downward spiral. How BK keeps Moyes happy I'll never know but somehow he manages to keep Moyes loyal even with such serious financial constraints. A part of me thinks we should seriously look at wiping out the debt now and just have a couple of seasons of financial recovery where league positions may be impacted. Then when we are back on a solid footing we won't be paying all the interest fees out to the banks which will then free up money for transfers. I don't know what the answer is, I just like to trust in BK as I think he helped save us from one of my darkest times as an Evertonian, plus we've had a good time under Moyes (so close yet so far as well) and I just happen to like the guy. My worry is with all the stick he takes, he may just one day say 'sod this' and sell us to someone like Gaydamak and then Evertonians really will realise that the grass isn't always greener.

Your model for using players as assets is flawed. We paid £5m for distin by the way. Which highlights my point perfectly. He is an intangible asset, one who once expired will have cost £5m plus wages over the time we have had him. Bily - £10m probably worth half that.

 

Is every player coming through a youth system a premier league certainty? Good enough to fill the boots of the players who may leave at a loss or profit? Having a manager prudent enough to make smart signings is not a guarantee, and based on your model that relates back to the financial safeguarding of our club- no guarantee.

 

Regarding the training complex you believe it was good business to sell for £7m and rent back at £1m a year over 25 years? What will the value of all those acres be worth then? If I told you that the value would be in excess of £200m would you be shocked? Regarding property crashes, just take a linear trend line and apply it over the past 25 years fluctuations and you will get the picture.

Kenwright obviously disagrees with you, it doesn't matter what the business model is, what matters is he knows Moyes gets it right more often than not so he backs him knowing that the players he buys will be solid investments and be worth more in the future. I tend to agree with Kenwright as he is a very successful businessman who runs his own company and must have made a few million in his time I would suspect, whereas you've done none of that. How you can question his business acumen is beyond me... at the end of the day, you ignore all my valid points about total assets we had when he took over and what we have now, anyone can recognise the absolutely huge gulf in the value of the squad, it's probably worth about £100m more than when he took over. I don't care about business theory I care about results and the squad and the performances and league positions have all improved beyond measure. It's just a pity he doesn't have the money to take us that next step but he'll always have my gratitude.

Assets on the pitch and nothing left is a good scenario? We have no more assets to leverage further borrowing to replace players coming to the end of their careers. We secure money based on future season ticket sales and TV revenue already. None of this happened on PJ's watch.

 

My estimated values: Let's not get into a bun fight over values, as the scenario is that we will soon have to sell - not choose to sell which means less money.

 

Jan Mucha - £1m

Tim Howard - £4m

Tony Hibbert £0.5m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £4m)

Leighton Baines - £20m

Joseph Yobo - £3m

John Heitinga - £6m

Phil Jagielka - £20m

Sylvain Distin - N/A - needs replacing within next two years (current replacement cost £8m)

James Wallace - N/A

Diniyar Bilyaletdinov - £4m

Mikel Arteta - £10m - needs replacing in next 4 years (current replacement cost £18m)

Tim Cahill - £3m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £12m)

Phil Neville - N/A - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £8m)

Leon Osman - £5m

Marouane Fellaini - £25m

Jack Rodwell - £15m

Jose Baxter - £3m

Louis Saha - £2m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £14m)

Jermaine Beckford - £4m

Magaye Gueye - £2m

Aiyegbeni Yakubu - £4m (needs replacing in nerxt two years (current replacement cost £10m)

Victor Anichebe - £3m

Ross Barkley - £4m

Velios - £2m

 

That is approx £120-130m of first team squad players - take into account those who are nearing the end of their career and the value IMO it would cost to get a younger like for like replacement and you are talking about having to generate £75m from the actual assets contained within that £120m pool of players to backfill 7 vacancies...

 

In the highly unlikely scenario that lesser quality replacements will inflate inline with the sales made to generate such funds and you are talking about diluting the quality of the team = lower league positions = lower revenue = potential relegation. A vicious circle we are in i'm afraid. Scary ain't it...

This quite frankly is nonsense. We may have youth players coming through so why do we need to spend £8m to replace Distin when we got him for nothing? You're just talking pie in the sky figures. The whole point of my argument (and I think Elstone's) is that we have put our money into the squad. I can't even remember what we sold Bellefield for and quite frankly who cares, we could sell Jagielka tomorrow and buy it back and have loose change I assume, how is it a big deal? Didn't we sell it for something like £7m, that bought us Arteta and Cahill and left us with loose change, we could sell those players for at least £15m tomorrow and so that leave us with more than a 100% return. Now do you get it? assets are assets. You say land doesn't go down in value, didn't you hear about the housing crash and economic crash? land isn't going for anything like it was so we sold at a good time. The fact is we could easily wipe out our debt and still field a team that would keep us in the premiership. When BK took over we were only just about keeping in the premiership and selling all of our players probably still wouldn't have wiped out the debt and would have left us with no players. So how exactly are we in a worse position? it's better to have assets on the pitch as they generate money for finishing higher in the league, attract sponsorship, draw crowds and attract tv coverage etc. The better players we have the higher our profile and the bigger the draw. No one else gives a toss whether we own our own training ground. They look at the worth of our assets, all of our assets.

We have more debt and less assets now than we did under Johnson? You need to disassociate moyes achievement of operating on a pretty much zilch net transfer budget in your appraisal of bill and co. Our credit rating is so poor we can't borrow any money?!

 

We have no assets apart from players, goodison is mortgaged, we do not own any training facilities, we have sold 3 training grounds under kenwright and we now own none. debt has doubled under kenwright despite selling off assets including Rooney. He is taking us down, never mind saving us from the big bad potential owners out there who have nothing to gain from an asset stripped club.

Yes the assets are on the pitch, where do you want them - in the grounds, the stand etc and have us playing in the Championship? We have far more worth now than before, the assets on the pitch are substantial and would easily wipe out any debt we have, that was not true when BK took over when our team was a joke. So in reality, assets wise, we are in a far healthier position than when he took over. Sell Fellaini and Rodwell and there goes £30 - 40m off the debt and we still have a miles better team than we did when he took over. BK is in charge of the club, Moyes wouldn't have been so successful if BK hadn't put us further into debt to sanction the players and wages.

11 years is a hell of a long time to wait though, especially with some of the cock-ups that have happened along the way, NTL,Kings Dock,Kirby,Fortress etc etc

I agree but I also remember that before BK we had PJ who was an absolute joke. I remember the manager we had, the teams we had, the football we played when BK took over and look at us now, we've made huge strides forward. The frustration is we just don't have the money to take the next step and capitalise on all the work Moyes has done. It's annoying for everyone and I want us to find some dream buyer as much as anyone else, but I don't want us selling to any old guy who's motives are dubious at best. No business tells their fans/customers everything, they don't even tell their employees everything. I would hope they are too busy working and doing their best and don't have time to hold everyone's hands and keep everyone updated on every potential deal or transfer. They tell us when there is solid news.

Instead of telling us what they want to tell us, answer the questions that the likes of the Peoples Group and Share holders are asking: If it's for sale, as it needs to be, How much is the asking price?

Why would they tell you that? it's not in their best interests to announce the asking price and then let people try and haggle it down or open up a can of worms with some fans moaning it's not enough, some moaning it's too much etc etc. Virtually no business openly states the asking price, they haggle for the best deal, people want to see the books etc and the price will depend on assets on the pitch, performance, league position etc. You're not the owner, you're not the chairman, you're just a customer - would you expect Tesco to tell you what their asking price is as well? If you want to know the price, set up a mega successful business and try and buy us.

As stated before in this topic, just because they won't state what they're asking doesn't mean it isn't for sale. Nearly everyone or every business has a price, we just need the right buyer and there aren't many around. I see there are rumours of the owners of Blackburn selling up and leaving them right in it... yet all Everton fans want is to be taken over, haven't you seen what has happened to some of the other clubs? we need investment, but the right investment. I like to believe that is what Bill is waiting for.

what about match days as a thread?! I know it's a separate section in the forum but I personally usually look forward most to reading Romey's matchday reports on a Monday, even if I don't always agree with them! Actually that reminds me, Romey, where's your report for Chelsea damn it?!

I'm probably in the minority but I'd like to see him here. He was an Everton fan growing up and I think it would be quite fitting for him to finish his career here and hopefully show he's still got something to offer. The obvious worry is he's going to be injured all the time and just cost us loads in wages but he seems a thoroughly decent guy, would possibly help shift some shirts and if he gets a chance he normally finishes it (unlike Beckford). I think he'd be worth the gamble, he used to be one of the best strikers in the world.

Surprised that "The Beard" or "Carl" are not among the candidates, some excellent posts and always intelligently put.

Beard gets my Vote.

Cheers Bill, not on as much these days as tried to avoid talking about Everton this season as I was so thoroughly disappointed by our abysmal first half of the season (when I was hoping for top 4!). Hopefully I'll be on more next season and during the Summer, assuming we actually sign someone.

I hope this doesn't happen but I can see why Moyes would be attracted. If we don't give him any money to strengthen in the Summer then why wouldn't he go to Villa who apparently have cash to splash and have some decent players - Ashley Young in particular? Villa aren't a small club and they have money, BK needs to get Moyes some funds.

no chance, he's lazy and done just about ok. If we've made him number 9 then it's looking like a pretty depressing Summer ahead.

Young player - Coleman

Most improved - Coleman

Mod - MikeO/Bill

Poster - DuncanMac

Thread - ?

Jags for me - brilliant. Tie between he and Howard who was also excellent.

Sell our leading goal scorer, someone who has more goals to minutes than most in the premiership?

 

He isnt a loan striker, he isnt strong enough to muscle people of the ball but put him up there with someone of strength (Vellios) and watch him become as good as he can be. If we are going to sell anyone, it should be Vic, talk about someone who thinks theyve made it....

Surely he isn't our leading scorer? I thought Cahill was banging them in earlier in the season but I could be wrong...? Also, goals to minutes is a little misleading, he's hardly finished a game he's started because he keeps getting subbed due to his zero effort.

He gets a fair few chances, that I will say for him, but he misses too many, he's got an attitude problem and he just isn't very good - personally he's a sub at best imo. Anichebe has gone backwards this year, although personally I thought he was VERY unlucky not to get a penalty on Saturday, if he hadn't slightly overrun the ball I think it was a stonewall. That was the type of play he is capable of - strength, direct running, power etc, unfortunately there hasn't been enough of it this season. That being said, he has every physical attribute a top class forward needs so personally I'd hang on to him and hope that he starts to deliver at some point as if he does, he'll be virtually unstoppable.

I personally thought the mistake at the weekend was bringing Cahill on, he looked well off it to me and all he did was give the ball away.

I'll get in on the Jags thing as well, I thought he was absolutely magnificent on Saturday, an absolutely Dave Watson-esque masterclass in defending, throwing himself in front of things, getting last ditch tackles in, he was brilliant and I always have total confidence when anything goes down his side. Distin had a good game but once again a poor error of judgement cost us. He messed up at least twice for their goal imo.

A shout for Howard as well, another fantastic performance from - in my opinion, our best keeper since Southall.

Apart from that we were pretty poor, for some unknown reason we looked tired and played it as if it was a pre season friendly (defence aside) particularly in the first half. How we missed someone like Arteta, someone who can actually show some composure and class. Rodwell was once again Captain Safe, decent shot which he nearly scored from but apart from that, anonymous as usual. Osman worked hard but unfortunately, against good teams he needs a little help and with the injuries we have, there is little help available from the rest of the midfielders we have available - except for possibly Coleman who was inexplicably quiet.

Our midfield will only be world class if we keep fellaini in it - he's the stand out player - the one who could probably get into any other side in the prem. Arteta needs to be on the left in my and many others opinions. Ossie/Cahill/Felli in the middle is as good as any with Arteta and a genuine outlet of the right - it's a lot to ask for Seamus to be that player but he's shown flashes of brilliance - imagine if we could get Donovan this summer - now that would be some midfield!!!

 

Is selling Rodwell the answer either? I wouldn't say - what a player to blood into that midfield and the expectance that Barkley will play some part next season - if we don't keep hold of our future talents then where's the next osman coming from?

 

I agree Gerrard's not looked as good and Fabregas hasn't looked as interested but there's a new crop of top Prem central midfielders... I hate to say but Merieles looks class, Wilshire/Song, Anderson, Toure/De Jong, Ramieres, Modric/Huddlestone, Tiote... there's many more - the premiership has got as much class as ever in terms of central midfield players and we need to keep our best ones to compete!

I think people quickly forget that many fans were getting on Arteta's back when he was out on the wing and it was when he went into the middle that he really showed what he could do and people started raving. This season hasn't been his best but I can't accept that Arteta isn't a better player than Fellaini (and Osman), he's our most important player when on form and Moyes needs to get him on form and then Everton will go places. He's a game winner and capable of magic and we don't have many (if any) of them.

That being said, he used to be a brilliant winger as well so I've got no problem where he plays, as long as it's in an attacking position and not screening the defence like he's done this season. It's a shame he got injured as his performances had started to improve since Moyes told him to push forward.

None of those players above are anywhere near as good as Gerrard, Fabregas (usually) or Ronaldo imo from what I've seen apart from possibly Modric. Wilshere looks like a good prospect, Huddlestone and Ramieres I don't particularly rate at all.

I don't mind if we sell or keep Fellaini or Rodwell, I'd definitely sell if the money was right though. Rodwell has been totally overhyped from what he's shown so far and the more I see him the more disappointed I get. Fellaini has played well but if the money is right then he's replaceable for a reasonable price and will allow us to strengthen where we are really weak. It's not about selling Fellaini for the sake of it, if we had money to go and buy a winger and striker I'd definitely keep him, but we don't, and buying a winger and striker would help our team more than keeping Fellaini will (especially with such an able deputy as Neville).

I'll stop going on about Fellaini now as people will really think I don't like him when I do, I just don't think we particularly need him and we could use the money elsewhere.

Ossie has been a consistent performer his entire Everton career but because he is a local lad who didnt cost millions a lot of people were quick to get on his back.

 

Im glad he is getting a little bit or recognition at last but he hasnt just suddenly become a good player overnight, hes always been a good player

Agreed, although due to his slight lack of pace I do think being in the middle suits him more than out wide. I honestly think we have, on paper, the best central midfield in the premiership (no doubt someone will mention Chelsea and the eternally, unfathomably overrated Essien). For some reason Arteta and Fellaini hasn't worked this season, for the life of me I can't understand why but hopefully once Moyes pushes Arteta more forward we can have Arteta, Fellaini/Neville and Osman/Cahill in there and we should beat virtually anyone in the premiership, especially if we get a decent striker. We really need to press home our qualities now, this season has been a total disappointment for me, we are one of the top 4 teams in the premiership but it just never happened for us. Sell Rodwell (and possibly Fellaini) and get in a pacy, quality winger and a class act up front (if we sold both also a quality DM) and we're in business. No way can Arteta have such a poor season again. There are so few special players around now that Gerrard is getting past it, Fabregas isn't as interested etc that Arteta should really be able to shine once he hits form.

I don't understand why it takes an injury crisis for Everton to get back to basics and get their mentality right.

I think our run of form has coincided with the fact that we have played: wolves, villa, fulham, birmingham, newcastle - hardly the premiership elite at present.

With Fellaini we lost to Newcastle, drew with Wolves, lost to Villa and drew with Fulham - a total of two points. Without Fellaini we beat Newcastle, Wolves and Fulham and drew with Villa - 10 points so I don't really think that argument stands up.

I don't think anyone can argue that over the past two seasons we have performed consistently better when Fellaini has been injured. When he's played, we've struggled and had to play catch up at the end of the season. I like the guy but I do think he's a little overrated and a luxury we don't really need, sell him for big £'s and get in someone who'll really make a difference - a quality pacy winger/striker.

hasn't it also coincided with osman moving to the centre? resulting in better forward play and less defensive duties in matches?

I don't think last season's run did. Osman is a good player in CM, I'd have a trio of Neville, Arteta and either Osman or Cahill (depending who's up front). I don't know if anyone noticed but all Osman's best work yesterday came down the wing, it wasn't through the centre. He's a good player when his confidence is up, always has been, he works hard, tackles, can beat a man, can shoot and can create goals. Neville, Osman and Arteta are all mobile and Osman and Arteta are good on the ball and can beat a man/shoot.

I just feel that Fellaini is too slow and that Neville is a very underrated DM.

I think you are missing the fact that we now have 2 DM's playing and neither of them really venture forward very much. Fellaini was having to do most of the defensive duties himself and for me Heitinga has been the better of the 2 in there.

Arteta was sitting back with Fellaini (if not deeper than Fellaini) so personally I think that's nonsense especially as no one could question Arteta's workrate. I'd be interested to know exactly what our win/loss ratio is with Fellaini in the team and without Fellaini in the team during these past two seasons. We are now the form team in the premiership, this coincided with Fellaini (and Arteta's injury) and last year we went on a massive unbeaten run around the time Fellaini got injured (and Arteta came back in). Coincidence - or evidence?