carlmc25

Thats a fair point given the circumstances but if I had been the manager he would have played in all the previous cup games including today unless I had deduced that he wasnt good enough.

League cup maybe, not the FA Cup for me. I don't see the point resting a GK.

Actually that first bit shouldnt be in there, I think that might have been a cut and paste mistype. He didnt give the ball away that often but then again 90% of his passes were sideways or 5 yards away. When he had the chance to play forward a lot of the time he chose to go wide.

 

Beckford worked really hard. He was always making runs, always closing down but it never really happened for him. Ivanovic played a blinder against him but Beckford certainly had Terry in trouble a couple of times. I agree that Saha will come back in and rightly so but your doing him an injustice if your calling him crap with the poor service and support he received.

I don't remember him closing down particularly vigorously and I can't remember him making too many decent runs, when he did he usually miscontrolled or got tackled. Personally speaking I thought he was very poor which was disappointing as I was hoping for a lot more from him today.

To be fair I dont think Moyes should be copping much stick for not starting Mucha too often. However, I do think he should have been starting in the cup games. I think its a bit unfair on him to not be good enough to play against the like of Huddersfield and Scunthorpe. Plus it should give Howard a reminder of who else is about.

 

Howard is a quality keeper and he showed that today. It doesnt mean that he has to play every game though and I would play Mucha against Reading. Goalkeepers need to get some game time as training is nothing like the real thing and if something happened to Howard, Mucha would be very rusty.

Why would you play Mucha in our biggest game of the season? the Reading match is now our most important match, the FA Cup is the only thing that can redeem our shameful season. Howard will start, definitely unless he's injured.

Its moments like that, that make me so proud to be an Evertonian, especially when you can see the passion and spirit in the players and the manager. However despite jumping around the front room like a loon when the Baines freekick went in and then again when Nev scored his penalty, it doesnt disguise the fact that it was yet another disjointed performance and in reality Lampard alone could have scored a hattrick for Chelsea.

 

The first questions I want to ask is the about the tactics. When I saw the team sheet, I thought that it was good that we had Beckford playing and I was hoping Cahill would play along side him. Turns out he didnt and neither of them managed to hold on to the ball that well all game in truth. However I was really dissapointed to see Fellaini constantly playing further up the pitch than Arteta. Gradually in the last two games he has done this and I thought today was his worst performance by a long way over the recent weeks. He is a world beater playing as a true DM yet we have him playing as a supporting midfielder and instead get Arteta to sit. It really pisses me off that Moyes thinks this is the way to go as its pure bullshit. Arteta simply doesnt have the defensive awareness to plug gaps and Chelsea constantly exploited it and on another day they could have won 4/5-0.

 

I did however think we pressed better today, at least at the start of the game, but as it wore on we sat further and further back and it was lucky that they didnt really show much quality in the final third. If we keep letting teams play their way in and around our box we arent going to win many matches. Sometimes we look as if we are going through the motions rather than really wanting to win the ball back.

 

Not sure what to make of the subs tbh. I was happy that Cahill came off and when OSman moved inside we did play better, until Beckford came off and we reverted even more to hoofing it in the general direction of Anichebe. The last substitution was a disgrace in my eyes. There is no way in hell we should be bringing on a CB/DM when we are trying to win a game. We simply invited pressure on ourselves and we didnt look like scoring when he came on. Its a fucking joke and its pathetic negative attitude to have. It happens everytime we get in that situation and we will never go on to be anything better than we are if he always bottles it in those situations.

 

Howard was brilliant and kept us in the game several times.

 

Baines was also brilliant. Going forward he was a constant thorn in the flank of Chelsea and his freekick was fairytale stuff. Defensively he was average.

 

Distin was a rock. He did really really well. Without him we would have been in the shit although not sure what was happening between him and Baines for their goal.

 

Jags looked rusty. He did some good things but then sometimes he would be all over the place. Not great overall.

 

Neville was alright but he still keeps leaving too much room for players to get a cross in.

 

Fellaini was poor Imo. He played too high up the pitch and didnt know what to do with the ball. We sat a little deeper he broke up Chelsea's play really well but the amount of times he lost the ball on the other side of the half way line was very poor.

 

Arteta was back to his average form for me. He was sat deeper, did a really poor job of picking up danger around the box and gace the ball away several times. He did try and close people down pretty well and on occasions he looked dangerous but he generally ballsed it up, especially that simple ball to Beckford.

 

Cahill was a waste of space. He did try and close the ball down quite well but he was non existant going forward. He gave the ball away so many times it was unreal and he slowed our build up play down everytime. One to forget for Timmy and tbh Im surprised Moyes had the bollacks to take him off.

 

Osman was a nuisance to Chelsea but didnt really create anything. He looked much better everytime he came central and for me he should have started there.

 

Coleman was a bit like Osman. He was constantly nagging at Chelsea but didnt really do anything of note. Had the better of Cole for the most part though.

 

Beckford did well. He worked tirelessly while he was on the pitch but Ivanovic had his number. On a couple of occasions I thought he shuld have had a shot instead of trying a turn but he put in a big effort for the team. I like the fact he constantly looks to get in behind as this creates space for players to move into, but its a pity a lot of the time they were long diagonal balls rather than him being slid in.

 

Bily started quite brightly with a couple of decent balls into the box and some good movement with Baines and Osman but as we lost possession of the ball he faded.

 

Vic did well when he came on. Like Beckford, the service to him wasnt great (especially as we went long ball even more with him on) but if there was something to chase he did so, and I thought he had the better of Terry several times.

 

Heitinga shouldnt have come on and he looks so uncomfortable in midfield its ridiculous that Moyes still tries to play him there.

 

Im hoping we can take the positives of this game and continue them next week. We need to keep pressing higher up the pitch and just general close down people better, as we still gives teams too much time and space to play. I think Cahill should be dropped or at least played alongside another striker as he has been completely anonymous in the last two games and in them games we have created very little from open play. We need to get Fellaini patrolling infront of the back four, and picking up any loose ball that half cleared when we are attacking. Arteta is creative and generally a better passer, so to have him sitting in these positions is a waste.

 

One of my main worries though is the back four as they arent a unit at all. At tiems they look like they have never played together and hopefully getting Fellini properly infront of them will help that but someone needs to lead them back there, otherwise we will keep giving the opposition chances and its very rare that we will get the fortune we did today. I dont want to put a downer when we should all be celebrating but im fed up of us papering over the cracks. I sincerely hope Moyes doesnt really believe we were 'top notch' as otherwise in our next game we will get found out and then he will go back to being the dour, moaning git he was after the Bolton game.

did he? I only remember him giving the ball away once all match and that in extra time. He wasn't particularly cutting with his passing but he was certainly accurate.

I thought Beckford was quite simply crap, doesn't work particularly hard, never looked like scoring, control and strength let him down on a couple of occasions. Put it this way, when Saha is fit he'll be back in. Anichebe didn't do anything either but at least he can win a header and has some strength.

Howard, made some great saves and easily motm. Baines had a good game and scored a great goal but missed a penalty and was also to blame for their goal. Arteta and Fellaini ran the midfield, would like to see Arteta get forward more (although he played one great pass to Bily which he totally messed up in the box) but I think the bigger problem is that we just have no pace or quality either on the LW or up front which means all Arteta can do is pass to Baines or Coleman. If Rodwell can perform consistently well in attacking midfield and maybe Anichebe move out to LW we may be in business, as Arteta and Fellaini can pass the ball around all day and both work hard.

Thought Beckford was a total waste of space, Osman pretty much as well, whilst Cahill did very little. Defence played very well, impressed with Jags. We should never have let Yak go out on loan, he's more talent in his little finger than Beckford has in is whole body.

the defence is leaking goals cos the defenders are making stupid mistakes and we get punished nearly every time..without fellaini i think we'd have conceded many more..teams don't seem to make many chances against us but take every single one they get and that is a problem for the back 4 more than fellaini..he can't stop everything

I actually probably agree with that, we do seem to be unlucky in that (even at Bolton) we can totally dominate posession, Howard can have no saves to make and yet every effort they have on goal seems to go in, usually via a deflection! That being said, whenever I see us play there always seems to be a huge gaping cavern in front of the defence where the DM should be, we seem to allow the opposition midfielders a lot of room to run into and sometimes almost invite teams to shoot from just outside the box. We haven't actually let in as many goals as I'd thought, we just never ever keep a clean sheet.

Like Marco has said, it's Fellaini's job to keep it simple and keep hold of posession, and then give the ball to someone with more ability on the ball (say, an Arteta perhaps). He's not there to create, he's not even there to score goals (which is a criticism you've levelled at him, strangely).

 

But Arteta is there to create, and to create he's simply not allowed to keep it simple as often as he has done this season. He needs to make things happen for us, make us tick, spark us into life. Maybe chip in with a few goals (although, I don't mind so much if that doesn't happen because he's there primarily to create for others to put the ball in the back of the net). I don't even care so much about his wage rise because even without that I'd still have expected a hell of a lot more from him.

 

I agree with you about the people who voted for Fellaini against Bolton, I thought he was shocking. I voted for no one in that game.

I haven't criticised Fellaini for not scoring goals or not creating goals, all I'm saying is he hasn't done either and our defence are shipping goals left, right and centre so exactly what is he doing that is so brilliant? that was my question to those creaming over him every week, he's either a defensive midfielder - in which case why is our defence letting in so many goals if he is playing like the best midfielder in the country? or he is an all rounder, all rounders create goals and score some goals, neither of which he is doing. I am just trying to break down some of the hype about his performances and get people to judge players on what they actually do on the pitch and not who they are, what haircut they have or what they are paid.

When I've seen Arteta play, he hasn't been the brilliant passing, goalscoring, creative controlling maestro I expected him to be this season, far from it (miles in fact). But when I have seen him play he's been performing a similar job to Fellaini, he's worked hard, tackled, kept posession, sat fairly deep - possibly due to Moyes instructions - and yet he gets slated and Fellaini lauded. He's been disappointing but some of the criticism of his performances have been well ott just because of who he is and not because of how he is actually playing. If Bily was playing in midfield and doing the job Arteta is people would be raving over it.

Arteta played well against Bolton, he needs to be pushed forward or on the wing as we have basically no one with any creativity now that Pienaar has gone. I don't think Arteta has been lazy this year or hasn't tried, he simply seems to be playing in a stupid position. Hopefully the Bolton game will drive him on as we need him, he's the only hope we have to win anything and climb the table.

Rant over that being said Romey, I've never thought you were one of the biased ones anyway, I do think you've been a little unfair on Arteta (oh and Anichebe!) on occasions but your match reviews seem to usually be pretty spot on and impartial.

arteta isn't there to keep it simple..felli is

mainly because Felli isn't capable of doing anything else, how's that Arteta's fault?

from what I've seen they've both been playing similar roles, in fact it has sometimes looked like Fellaini has been employed as the attacking midfielder and Arteta as the sitting player (crazy tactics). So are you saying that Arteta should be judged negatively against Fellaini (eg both play 10 x 5 yard passes to a team mate) because he's more talented, rather than judging him solely based on his contribution...?

I do love the way Carl talks about members on here having favourites that they seem blinded to when he clearly has his own. You're not immune to it Carl, none of us are.

everyone has their own favourites, it's human nature - I just personally don't vote for my favourites when they play rubbish and I can still view their performance objectively. I mean I like Bily, he seems a nice guy who has scored some cracking goals but the fact is he was abysmal at the weekend and has been consistently poor since we signed him. Fellaini has been our best player, although the hype has exceeded the reality imo, but again - I thought he was very poor at the weekend.

What has always annoyed me is that the more talented players - Arteta/Gravesen in particular, often get the most stick because their performances seem to be judged against different criteria than the rest of them. As I've said in other posts, Arteta keeps it simple he's a waste of space, Fellaini does it and he looks classy and 'keeps hold of posession.' Performance should be judged on contribution imo, not on who is playing to their maximum potential. Some jobs (such as tackling) are a lot easier to do consistently than it is to open up defences and dribble past players, which are heavily reliant on confidence.

I really couldn't pinpoint who my favourite player is, it would probably be between Arteta & Yobo, but I do have a bit of a soft spot for most of the players, in particular Anichebe (possibly unwarranted) and Coleman.

Firstly I dont think we were as bad as everybody has been making out... We sure as shit werent good (far from it) but anyone reading this thread would think we just rolled over and let Bolton win. Maybe its the hindsight factor of not watching the recording of the game til today.

 

Secondly I also find it mildly amusing to come on here after poor losses and see who becomes the lastest scapegoat... Vic, Heits, Bily, Arteta etc etc and while I have certain preferences for certain players, some of the comments on here are frankly pathetic and just shows how little some people really watch the game.

 

So back to the game, as I mentioned I didnt think we were that bad. We were set up poorly as I have no idea why how Vic gets in ahead of Beckford against massive Bolton CB's, I dont know why we started the first 5ish minutes with Cahill playing as the deepest midfielder, I dont know why we tried to play Cahill as a normal midfielder after the first 5 up until the goal? To me it all smacks of the same negative 'playing to not lose' Moyes mentality.

 

Bolton didnt do that much today, they just played effectively. In fact they played how we did in the FA Cup final season and pretty much whenever we play our best. They defended strongly, the pressed the ball in the opposition half (20 yards higher than us and with the midfield not just strikers) and when they played the ball long they played it into chest height so there was an element of control with players supporting the main striker. The amount of times we pinged the ball forward to Cahill/Vic onyl for it to be over head height or for there to be no-one within 20 yards was pathetic. They did nothing special but because we didnt really have a proper game plan they read us like a book, despite some of the much maligned players giving it a decent go.

 

Anyway with regards to the goals. Yes the freekick should have been given but who the fuck was Cahill marking? Well he should have been marking the other Cahill, the one who waltzed in on his own, completely unmarked and nodded it in the back of the net. Absolutely pathetic and had that been someone like Heitinga, Vic etc he would have been ripped a new one on here, but because its our darling Cahill so we will ignore it for the most part. On a normal day it would have actually been us going 1-0 if the same darling Cahill had actually gone at the ball with his head and not his shin. Their second was also a clear push on Heitinga, God knows how it wasnt given as it was as obvious as they come so really they shouldnt have even got a goal. Having said that their 3rd looked like it should have been given.

 

On to the players:

 

Howard didnt really have anything to do.

 

Neville was poor again today. Not only does he give the ball away unnecceserily but recently he is getting the habit of sitting 3-4 yards deeper than the others in the back 4. It didnt cost us today but if he keeps doing it, we will get found out.

 

Heitinga is copping a lot on needless slack. He did a lot of good things today, and yes he did make a couple of mistakes, but on the whole he was solid.

 

Distin was similar to Heitinga. Yes there were mistakes and he certainly wasnt as dominant as he has been but I wouldnt say he was crap. I agree with Romey though in that the two of them dont really look like a partnership.

 

Baines wasnt great. Didnt really get forward convincingly or defend convincingly.

 

Felli was MOTM. He might not have been at his very best but he was still the best player on the pitch. The sheer amount of times he won the ball of the opposition is staggering and he is always trying to drive us forward.

 

Arteta was decent again today. He made several attempts at getting the ball forward, and whilst it didnt always work its much better than he was at the start of the season. 2nd best player on the pitch for me.

 

Bily is also copping unnecessary stick. He wants the ball in space, and Bolton rarely gave him that but when he did no-one found him with a ball. On at least a couple of times he found room around the edge of the box but no-one even looked up at him (mainly Coleman). He also got more than stuck in defensively. However he did waste the ball on a couple of occasions but its not like he was the only one.

 

Coleman probably has his poorest display for us. Nothing worked for him. I suspect its a case of not being fresh from midweek. It doesnt give him an excuse but Im not going to lay into him for one bad performance when you could see he was trying.

 

Cahill was probably the worst player on the pitch. To start with he looked leggy and Bolton nulified him really well. As mentioned he was at fault for their first and he should have scored himself, but Bolton didnt give him any time on the ball and while I love Timmy he isnt the greatest when he has players instantly hassling him as his technique isnt the greatest and then he wasnt given an inch by the CB's (completely understandably). He did keep trying to plug away but given the tactics of both teams he was never going to have his best day. Another problem I have with Cahill is that when he does get the ball in that space, our build up play is generally much slower and predictable. We should have been looking to attack Bolton and catch them on the counter but instead we let them re-organise and tried whipping it for their CB's to ease it clear (if we even got that far).

 

Vic is copping an unbelievable amount of stick, especially when for 60ish minutes the guy gave his all against 2 massive CB's (technically 3). To start with he had no support whatsoever and the piss poor service he was given gave him no chance. It doesnt matter whether it had been Vic, Saha, Yak, JV, Becks, Dixie Dean etc, when the quality of ball coming from midfield/defence is that bad you will just surrender posession. If you actually watch his performance (especially when we started to actually get hold of the ball) his movement was pretty decent. While it was explosive like Sahas has been recently, we was trying to make runs down the channels and he was coming to short to give a passing option. I fully admit that at times his control was poor BUT so was Cahills, so was Colemans etc etc. As I said in a previous post, Vic has played his best stuff for us coming off that right wing and surprise surprise when he moved there (after the subs) he instantly started finding more space and got into the game much more than he had and in truth he did more in that 10min cameo than Coleman had for the rest of the game. Beckford should have been on at half time (for Coleman) and Vic should have moved right.

 

Of the subs, Osman was really poor. He was just simply off the pace, Becks didnt really get the support to exploit Boltons backline. He made the runs, but the ball was either a poor one or we just didnt bother trying. Baxter at least got a shot away and while it was good to see him get some game time, he didnt really contribute.

I agree with a fair bit of that, particularly the scapegoats - although it works both ways in that people also have their favourites, the current one being Fellaini.

What I don't agree with is that Fellaini was the best player, as mentioned in other threads his distribution wasn't just bad, it was criminal. Also, how anyone can defend Bily after that I'll never know, Fellaini was poor but Bily took poor to a whole new level. He isn't good enough, he can't play on the wing and we wasted £10m on him. Why on earth Moyes spent £10m on the world's slowest winger I'll never know, you need at least a modicum of pace to play in the premiership and even more pace if you're on the wing. I do agree that Arteta played well and Anichebe really got stuck in, it's not his fault nearly everyone else (Arteta aside) around him couldn't play a decent final ball.

I also agree we weren't that bad, we were nowhere near as bad as the first half against Liverpool for example. We controlled most of the game, we just let in (again) sloppy goals and lacked a little with the final pass. With a bit more luck in and around the box we could have won it. What was disappointing was the reaction when we went 2 down, everyone apart from Arteta gave up.

I can see why you voted for Felli because he did do well defensively and he never stopped trying, how carl could say he was lazy is beyond me but were I do agree with him was his distribution was abysmal. You simply cant give away possesion so cheaply and so often and still be MotM no matter how bad everyone else was

I thought Fellaini was lethargic in the first half in particular and his passing was lazy all day. It wasn't as if he was trying difficult passes, he just looked like he wasn't taking any care in posession.

Pity Rodwell was injured after such a good performance against Blackpool, he and Arteta could have really turned Bolton over whereas Cahill looked a yard off it.

Carl, i think you must watch Arteta and nobody else, we know he is a favourite of yours and he did play a bit better than in recent times but he was still only OK, not deserving of MOTM.

But as its already been stated everyone looks at the same game, but they come away with so many different Views.

I love Arteta, I also like Fellaini - although as I've said before, considering he never scores, hardly ever creates any goals and our defence is leaking goals, I fail to see exactly why everyone is raving over him just because he usually looks tidy.

Fellaini has been playing well but yesterday he consistently gave the ball away, he was ponderous going forward and basically contributed little apart from sticking his long legs out now and again and flukily winning the ball back, usually only to then go and give it away again. He was awful. Arteta hasn't been playing like he can this season, that being said whenever I've seen us play he hasn't actually been that much worse than Fellaini, it's just that his expectation levels are much higher. When Fellaini keeps it simple he's a genius, when Arteta does it he's a pussy. Arteta works as hard, he tackles, he passes, he's scored more league goals and has created more goals. In saying that he's had an inexplicably poor season by his own standards.

Yesterday, however, he was somewhere approaching his best. He had nothing doing up front, yet he consistently broke forward with pace, played in Anichebe and someone else during the macth, very rarely gave the ball away and when everyone else's head went down he was still running. Even before the match he was going around geeing people up and telling them what to do. He could hold his head up yesterday, along with possibly Howard, Baines (although second goal was shameful) and Anichebe - who I thought put a good shift in.

I know people have different views and we're all cheesed off with the current season which promised so much, but I for the life of me can't understand how anyone can give Fellaini motm for that game! seriously!

anyway, I'll stop flogging this donkey now! I wish this season would end and I wish Moyes would get a decent coach who knew something about tactics and defending.

Carl, like I said it's my opinion, I don't come here saying you talk rubbish so please don't say the same about me. I stick to my initial reaction and opinion and yes I voted for Fellaini.

Then you're delusional

seriously, watch the game again, without the recent - slightly unjustified - hype ringing in your ears. He was an embarrassment.

I didn't think we were that bad. We started off totally abysmal, like a pre season friendly and went 1-0 down from a joke of a free kick. After that, we dominated the whole match until the scored an unbelievably cheap second. They scored off virtually their only two meaningful attacks. Cahill should have scored, we had a lot of balls in and about their box but we just couldn't pick the right pass. We actually moved the ball around ok and had a lot of posession. That being said, Fellaini and Bily were seriously awful. If they had've been at the races we probably would have won.

I'm not overly concerned with how we played, just with our abysmal defence. Does Moyes actually work on tactics as we've kept about one clean sheet in 25 matches or something? surely our coach needs to be fired.

Oh Dear.........Oh Very Fucking Dear...................I don't wish to insult fellow Evertonians but if you think Arteta was man of the match then I was at the wrong game, I seriously do hope you are giving him MOM on the sole basis of being the best of a bad bunch, and even then I doubt that..............just an opinion and we are all entitled to that.

actually, you're talking total rubbish. Arteta was excellent. He never stopped running, even when everyone else gave up when we went 2-0 down. He played two excellent through balls, made a fair few tackles, burst forward on many occasions and he was easily the best midfielder on the pitch. Now if you were talking about how could anyone vote Fellaini I'd back you up. Talk about hype. He was a disgrace. He looked totally lazy, gave the ball away at least 70% of the time he had it and once again created absolutely zero going forward. He looked 5 yards too slow. Which was still at least a couple of yards quicker than Bily, who was a shambles. Also, what the hell was Baines doing for the second goal?

Also, a couple of people had a go at Anichebe, one of the only players on the pitch who actually had a go and looked like he wanted to score. Cahill was anonymous, Beckford looked like he needed a rocket. Anichebe (until he tired with 20 mins left) was trying his hardest, particularly in the second half, and was the only attacking player we had who contributed anything going forward (unlike Coleman, Bily, Cahill).

He does need to start scoring some goals though.

Arteta for me, easy.

we are talking about this guy, but with more hair, right? :

 

just trying to bring a bit of realism here. He's been one of our best players but I can't help feel that some of the praise has been a little ott. His job is to protect the defence and we can't buy a clean sheet. When he was out last season and Arteta was controlling the midfield then we looked a better team, although I can't figure out why they haven't gelled so far, on paper I think we have about the best midfield in the premiership with Arteta and Fellaini but for some reason Arteta hasn't been able to get forward and get involved and the midfield is a little pedestrian whereas last season there was a zip to our play.

I love Fellaini but we need to keep clean sheets and I don't think all the blame can be laid against the defence, sometimes there seems to be huge gaping holes in front of the back four where the opposition midfield can just run at our defence or shoot at will.

As for the comment on Felli, yes. yes he is that good and we would likely be sitting on the bottom of the table without the man.

really? I can't remember him creating too many goals, he's not scored in the league (has he?) and we keep letting in goals so I don't really see how he is the game changer for us. We did better last season without him didn't we?

He's playing well, no doubt, but we're letting in too many goals and his job is to protect the defence. At least it should be anyway.

I think it has to be time to drop Distin. I actually think he's played pretty well in the main this season but he still gets caught out playing people onside, he doesn't really throw himself in front of blocks (but hangs out an ineffective leg) and his partnerships with Jags and Heitinga haven't worked. Everyone keeps going on about our lack of goals but the reason we are doing so badly this season is the lack of clean sheets. Haven't we kept something like 1 clean sheet in 19 games? Since Distin has come into the team clean sheets have been virtually non existent. Jags/Yobo and Jags/Lescott were excellent. I know Moyes likes a left footer but it's quite frankly ridiculous that he doesn't try Heitinga and Jags together as to be perfectly blunt, our defensive record cannot get any worse.

We have a 5 man midfield yet still cannot keep clean sheets so something must be wrong. Everyone keeps going on about how amazing Fellaini is playing as well, I agree he's playing well but he's a defensive midfielder is he not? and yet we keep shipping goals all over the place, is he really playing as well as everyone thinks...

To say he's not been the same player since his return from injury is just plain wrong though. When he came back at the back end of last season he was involved in everything and literally ran games for us from start to finish. It's just this season where he's become a fanny.

Just thinking about this post last night, wasn't Fellaini injured when Arteta returned last season? This would possibly add fuel to the belief that Arteta is currently suffering due to Moyes using Fellaini as more of a box to box midfielder and Arteta is having to sit deep...

he played ok yesterday, got forward a few times, did a couple of tricks and played a couple of riskier passes. He is getting better but he needs to be moved more forward. Fellaini is doing well, but he'll never be the creative player Arteta is, Moyes keeps pushing Fellaini forward as he is tall and so a threat in the air. It's a poor move as Fellaini isn't particularly effective around the opposition penalty box and Arteta is completely wasted in our own half. I agree with an earlier poster in that it seems Moyes wants Arteta to help us bring the ball out of defence, stop us hoofing it all the time. I can understand Moyes' logic, but surely Fellaini can do that and Arteta can be pushed up behind the striker(s) to create some problems. He has the brain, the skill, the shooting ability. He's our most talented player and I don't for one minute believe that he's just phoning it in because he's on a bigger contract. I wouldn't sell him, I'd push him forward and see what happens. Rodwell has been a donkey in midfield all season, he doesn't deserve to play either. Arteta, if he is played in his correct position, will be one of the stars of the premier league, he's a brilliant player, he just needs his belief back and a manager who utilises his talent.

He worked the left channel, very similar to what anelka does for Chelsea, we went to 4-5-1 on 74 mins... Agree to disagree whatever...

well we'll have to agree to disagree but personally, when Anichebe spent the whole second half pinned to the left touchline and Osman spent the whole time more central, to me that suggests Anichebe was in fact playing LW in a 451 because Moyes recognised we were getting battered. The fact that Anichebe was then replaced by Bily, a LW, tends to reinforce my thinking. But anyway, as I've said in previous posts and topics, the formation wasn't really to blame in the first half anyway (like it hasn't been in any game this season) it's the attitudes of the players that have been totally unacceptable on too many occasions.

If he played well against a mickey mouse midfield, then why did you say on the match topic that the midfield was overran?

because in the first half when we had 442 it was. In the second half we dominated. All of you must have been watching a different game from me, Fellaini was our best midfielder but he wasn't THAT much better than Arteta imo and I hardly think he was a 'beast.' Just decent against the poorest Liverpool midfield you will ever see. First half the protection for our defence was non-existent and all the players were walking around like it was a pre-season friendly.

Disagree. I think the problem he's got atm is that he'll sit quite deep and he'll pass the ball about, but he'll just sit there waiting for it back. He wont pass and move, just pass and wait. Which is the complete opposite from my MOTM Fellaini, who'll pass and move and get us moving up the pitch!

 

I gave it Felli, for the reasons already stated! Sometimes the ball just sticks to his feet, you think he's dallying on the ball and he's going to lose it but it just doesn't happen like that, he'll always come away with the ball or draw the foul.

Arteta got forward quite a bit and took a few risks with his passing, it was also his corner that created the first goal. I'm not saying he was vintage, but that's the best I've seen him play in a while. Much more like it. I think people are going a little ott about Fellaini, he played well against a mickey mouse midfield but he was hardly scintillating.

Trying to big up the 4-4-2? You are talking nonsense. We stuck at 4-4-2 when we scored two goals! If a striker drops deep does that make him a midfielder? If baines overlaps the midfield does that make him a winger?

 

Fact is we played with two strikers for the vast majority of the match. Midfield was not over run, some pretty poor passing at times, osman playing as a wide man with our main goalthreat missing. A performance of endeavour, edgeof seat stuff, catching Liverpool on the break and vice versa

I think you must be delusional. We were so obviously playing 451 with Anichebe on the LW in the second half yet somehow you fail to see it. Didn't you notice that Anichebe spent the whole time hogging the left touchline? in what respect was it 442? We may have played with two strikers but one of the them was on the wing for the entire second half which is why we actually got back into the game whereas in the first half we were totally overrun by Liverpool's five man midfield.

That being said, as I've said all along this season, the teams Moyes is putting out are not the problem, the attitude is and that first half performance, 442 aside, was abysmal and I don't think we even closed down a red shirt in the last 20 minutes of that half. Anichebe had a big impact on the game second half, he deserves to play there next game and not Bily.

I quite liked the touch when the next thing the ball hit was the net .

I thought Fellaini played pretty well but not brilliant, moving Anichebe out wide made the single biggest difference and he had a hand in both goals. All of our attacking play went down his side and he worked hard, I'll give my motm to him.