carlmc25

Heitinga has had no problems with being against tall strikers so far, it's something I've been impressed with due to his lack of height. So if he can be our aerial dominator then I see no reason why a Jags/Johnny partnership would have a weakness.

I have to say that on what I've seen so far I haven't really seen Heitinga dominated in the air so I probably agree with that assessment. Jagielka was slightly weak though. Only time will tell, I still think if Yobo can regain his form with a run in the team then he would be in my back two, he needs a leader alongside him, I'd love to see him play alongside Heitinga.

las year neville had his best season since he joined us, and was atleast twice as good as lescott las season. 1st half of the season lescott was a absolute waste of space, and most wanted him dropped. he was third choice cb behind jags an yobo and forced to play in what is arguebly is better position lb(which had got him called up 4 england previously), but he was totally unprofessionable and didnt play to his ability and should have been dropped for baines. second half of the season he played well at cb, but no better than any other avg. cb in the prem. stop tryin to make him out as better than what he was.

It's a mystery why he was picked for England then and why City paid £24m for a bona fide donkey when they could have bought Senderos, Distin, Dunne, Collins for less than a third of that. Neville was excellent though, I'll agree on that.

Distin is suspended so i think theyre talking about who should partner Yobo. Might be wrong though....

oops, misread the post - my mistake!

It may be too early to tell and I agree with alot of ppl that jags + lescott was amazing however I think heits has started well and once settled could be a more than adequate replacement. It is weird someone saying jlo went for 24 mil and jags never would. A) lescott was overpriced I think if jags gets back to form there is a real danger of a man u or arsenal offering that sort of money

Lescott was a fantastic LB as well so I'm not sure he was overpriced, it just looks like it now. As for Jags, he is of the Carragher ilk. He's not a great passer, he's probably a little weaker in the air but he's 100% committed, fairly quick and reliable. He's not a rolls royce type player, he's a british get stuck in type player. The top teams usually want someone with a little bit of silk, which is why Lescott was always the more attractive purchase for someone as he had more class on the ball and was a little stronger in the air. I can't see Jagielka moving really and I hope he doesn't. He's a fantastic defender, just slightly limited.

I think you need a mix of the two, which is why Jags and Lescott/Yobo worked so well.

Ossie definitely got my vote and deservedly so, but I didn't think his performance was that much clearly better than Pienaar's say, or even Arteta's. I sometimes think people get more votes than they should due to the sheep mentality and also when someone becomes very popular with the fans. I honestly believe that during the second half of last season Jags AND Lescott were fantastic, a lot of the matches I saw I thought Lescott pipped it, yet he was getting virtually no votes and Jags raking them in nearly every time we defended well. I love Jags but I thought Lescott was harshly overlooked last season purely because he had such a nightmare start.

The motm system is a bit of fun and no system is perfect and I like it how it is but the fact that City wanted Lescott for £24m suggests that he was playing well.

I do think the voting has been better this year and in general I agree with you that the majority do vote with their heads, the problem last year was Jagielka was undoubtedly people's favourite and he was playing directly alongside Lescott, when both were playing fairly evenly the favourite won out.

I think you overestimate the validity of your motm system. Lescott was preferred, when both fit, over Jags for England usually. He was bought for £24m. Jags will never go for £24m as he is dodgy on the ball and a little weak in the air, Lescott was the classier player and was awesome in the second half of last season but continually overlooked because everyone jumped on the Jags bandwagon.

I mean, come on, are you telling me that Seamus Coleman has done more for us this season than Tim Howard? Is that how trustworthy motm is?

edit: I'm surprised City didn't come in for Fellaini for £50m looking at our motm stats for last season...

Last season he came eleventh in the TT player of the season.

 

Pienaar 243

Jagielka 229

Fellaini 219

Baines 186

Arteta 164

Cahill 140

Neville 134

Osman 126

Saha 71

Howard 66

Lescott 59

 

He got one MOTM against Villa which accounted for fifteen of his votes.

 

Given that he played in forty-seven games over the season that means he averaged less than one vote a game for the rest of it.

That is a joke though Mike, the second half of last season I actually thought he was regularly outperforming Jagielka but due to Jags being flavour of the month for his no nonsense all action style, Jags kept getting votes and Lescott kept getting overlooked. No one can honestly say that Saha did more for us, or Fellaini who by and large (a few goals aside) was useless. Lescott, some dodgy early season form aside, was regularly excellent for us and I think a lot of people have short memories. I totally agree with Bill. He was better in the air than Jagielka (corner lapses aside) and like marco, I too worry that Jags and Heitinga are a little small to play together. I'm hoping that Yobo gets a run in the team soon as I still believe that he is potentially our best defender.

Lescott would have been feeling the pressure and his head must have been a little messed up after all the goings on in the Summer, I still expect him to turn out to be a decent player and would welcome him back in our squad no question.

As for someone saying Heitinga hasn't put a foot wrong, he made a few dodgy mistakes against a team recently (the exact match escapes me - it was the one were he brought a man down on the edge of the box and we got away with a free kick) where he let a guy go through on goal and he also could have given away a penalty. We still aren't keeping many clean sheets and for me, the derby aside, Howard has been our best player in defence this season. That being said, I do like Heitinga and I think he is consistently improving, his distribution is a real plus.

Im fairly sure Moyes will bring in Senderos for Distin and keep the same side that played against Man U. I am personally bricking it with these two together. I dont know how well Senderos will do without someone barking at him but he did play well against Wigan and he has plenty European experience.

 

For me that defence is our only weakness and it was exposed against Sporting as they did have a couple of good chances. i find we tend to sit off a bit more in Europe and it will be our downfall if we do it again. High intensity, in their face, force them to make mistakes and break their already fragile confidence. If we sit back and let them play, they will gain confidence (like they did at times at Goodison), string a couple of passes together and create a chance that may or may not go in, but that in turn will ignite the crowd and may get the team going.

 

Hopefully thats something Fergie told Moyes in their post match conflab as to go out against Sporting would be criminal.

Yobo will play if fit, not Senderos.

Think someone else has said it already but we're going to have to be careful not to fall into the 'after the Lord Mayor's Show' trap for rest of season, we've had a fantastic February but we have to treat every game like a cup final now, not just Spurs, Villa and City, but all the teams fighting for survival who will be happy to come to Goodison and park the bus to earn a point, we'll have to beat them too. I have no doubt all the teams above us will take points off eachother, the question is whether we can keep winning when they do.

 

The other big, big risk is we go to Lisbon and get beat 1-0 on Thursday - it will be so deflating to go out of the Europa that I honestly wouldn't fancy us to bounce back with a win at White Hart Lane, and the way i see it if we don't win there, we ain't gonna get in Europe again.

under Moyes Everton tend to do well following a setback (ie following both defeats against Liverpool) I am more worried about us winning against Sporting and going into the Tottenham match a bit unfocused. These next two games are massive for us, the players need to play as well against Spurs as we did against Chelsea and Man Utd.

If your just looking it as another 8 points it seems very easy however this would mean that for us to catch them our form would have to be consistantly good and the rest slipping up again... thats us getting 29 out of 36 (2.4ppg) and the rest getting 20 or 21 out of 36 (1.75ppg)

 

4 teams chasing fourth are not going to average 1.75 points per game.... So I honestly think 4th is to much to expect.....

 

5th or 6th on the other hand is realistic......

 

anyway take each game as it goes...... and we will see what its like at the end of March... then Ill start getting excited...

 

All this talk will just create problems on the pitch.... you see how frustrated the crowd gets at home games... imagine what it will be like with all this pressure.....

 

Saying its just 7-8 points makes things look alot easier than they are...

I don't think it will be easy by any stretch but I do think if we keep getting results then we'll do it. City don't just have to play Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea, but also us, Villa, Spurs. Villa's run in is easy, that's a problem especially as we're 7 points behind them, we need to beat Spurs and we need to beat Villa away from home, if we can do that then we have a good chance. We're not going to win every game but I'd say 8 - 10 games out of 12 may be enough, especially if those 8 - 10 included wins against our rivals. A lot of our rivals still have to play each other, points have to be dropped, we just need to make sure we don't drop any to them and lose more ground. Everyone else is feeling the pressure, just look at the match yesterday were both teams were desperate not to lose, we're the outsiders who previously had nothing to play for but all of a sudden are coming up fast on the outside and have a history of finishing the season pretty well and holding our nerve.

If we can be leading by half time in this, say 1-0 or 2-0 then I'd take off Saha and Arteta/Pienaar at half-time and then another player after about 70 minutes. We need to make sure we qualify but Sporting looked weak and now that 4th is looking a possibility in the league I think we seriously need to give some thought to our biggest match of the season - Spurs at the weekend - if we're winning this match and looking comfortable. We need fresh legs for Tottenham, I'd like to see Anichebe given a run out, maybe Yakubu and Rodwell/Coleman as well. I don't want to risk losing but we have enough good players now to mix up the squad a little and keep players fresh without weakening the team a great deal.

Didn't the form chart say that we've caught up about 7-8 points on both Spurs and Villa in 6 games and about 5 points on Liverpool and City (if my memory serves me correct)? As we have 12 games remaining then I definitely think it is possible that we will finish higher than we are now, if we beat Tottenham I think we're back in the hunt BIG TIME for 4th. City's run in is VERY tricky indeed, Liverpool are struggling to score goals and Spurs form is patchy at best. We need to start winning away from home and we need to get results against our rivals during the run in.

Looking at the remaining fixtures Man City have a very difficult run in, I can't see any possibility that they will finish 4th, Spurs also have a fairly difficult run in. Liverpool have a few difficult games and they will be feeling the pressure. I don't rate Villa but their run in is nearly as easy as ours, we really need them to start dropping points now as if they do I think we can grab that 4th spot. We NEED to beat Spurs, if we can do that and results can stay as they are today we are in with a massive shout for 4th. Villa are nothing remotely special imo, they will surely start losing games like they did last season, they just never seem to get any injuries which is a shame as they totally rely on one or two players.

Ossie for me definitely, he's absolutely fantastic in CM, as are Arteta and Pienaar and I can see no reason why we will miss Fellaini at all except for his height. Good to see Rooney having a mare, his touch was abysmal today.

oh and ridiculous decision to give Rodwell motm by Dublin, Rodwell himself looked embarrassed and what a joke when the likes of Osman ran himself into the ground.

Good goal today, almost Gerrard-esque the way he went past (the rubbish) Evans and slotted it home, just doesn't have quite that burst of pace that Gerrard has.

He obviously has class, he has quality but he now needs to get involved like Osman, Arteta and Pienaar do in that midfield. They are three small guys yet they get stuck in, they play quick passes into feet, they have great feet. I know Rodwell is 18, I know he has great potential but at the moment that is all it is, he is not yet good enough for our midfield, unless he picks up his game from what I have seen so far. How he develops will only be proven over time.

I don't want us to sell him, all I'm saying is at this moment, he could only be rated in the £20m bracket as he hardly plays for Everton never mind England. What we really need at this moment is a world class striker, we just played a poor United team off the park, we just outplayed Chelsea as well and we've dominated against Arsenal and Liverpool earlier in the season (although we lost 2-0) - we have a great team, especially once Jags is back, the only area we are a little weak is up front. Once we have a striker we can be top 4 regulars imo, which is why I said I could see the merits of selling Rodwell to fund this, even though I don't think we should.

oh and how ridiculous was it for Sky to give him man of the match, ffs he was only on the pitch 5 minutes, talk about hype. Bily's goal was miles better as well!

Point 1 - moyes has him down as a centre back, I believe he's got pretty good judgement.

 

Point 2 - people rave about every youngster we have, but many like Branch don't actually show they have any true class - Rodwell has already shown he is a class player - was there ever talk of Man.Utd in for Michael Branch?

 

Point 3 - you must have a very short memory, Rodwell was one of our most involved/important players at the start of the season - okay we were doing shite but he was still performing as one of our most senior players.

since when does Moyes have him down as a CB? I'm pretty sure that Moyes has stated on several occasions in the press that he sees Rodwell as a DM. I also believe that Moyes has pretty good judgement so if he sells him for £20m - £30m I'd back him like I did with Rooney.

Rodwell is young and he's a local, he got overhyped earlier in the season for doing alright, he mostly played well against poor teams in Europe. I'm not knocking his 'talent' I'm knocking the fact that so far he hasn't actually done much on the pitch (apart from look good) of importance. Potential is one thing, fulfilling it is another and he hasn't even come close yet. It's no coincidence that since his injury and Fellaini being moved back into DM that our fortunes transformed.

Personally, I'd be worried if I saw Rodwell's name on the teamsheet tomorrow, I'd rather see Neville in DM.

A lot of people are forgeting - moyes see's rodwell as a centre back in the long run - rio ferdinand started life as centre mid, very similar to rodwell at the start of his career, I remember watching rio in his early west ham days and although his potential was obvious there were mistakes and he was very raw, he learned his trade in centre-mid where there's a little less pressure than centre back. I actually think rodwell looks stronger than rio did in his early days, if rodwell keeps his head screwed on and keeps learning here, then he will be an international centre back in coming years, maybe even rio's long term replacement in the england team (hopefully not the man.u team).

 

We should be talking about Jack Rodwell as our future captian - not fucking selling him for £20m!

Yes but that is based on pure speculation, none of us have actually seen him play Centre Back in the premiership, once we have then I think we can make a more informed judgement as to what he is actually worth and how good he will be. I seem to remember everyone raving about Michael Branch when he came through.

All we've seen so far is someone playing in DM who is classy on the ball (although hardly ripping teams to shreds with incisive through balls) but isn't involved much and who, on occasion, looks a little lost. It's about time he stepped it up a bit, he's been in and around the team for a year now, he's physically strong, he's fairly mobile and he's now old enough to start staking a claim.

So do you want Rodwell to run around like a headless chicken and lunge into challenges with two feet ala Rooney and Gerrard at 18? I also dont know many plyers who at 18 played consistently good week in and week out.

I want someone who gets involved, who actively tries to take the game by the scruff of the neck and doesn't just sit back and watch the game pass him by and play it safe. He needs to get involved more and take a few more risks, he's a little 'safe' with his passing, more like Redknapp than Gerrard or Fabregas. To be fair, he's played most of his time in defence so maybe it will come in midfield, all I'm saying is at the moment, I think he looks more suited to defence than midfield.

At the moment it is purely potential, I don't want us to sell him but sometimes, from a business point of view, you can't argue that a 'bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.'

Fourteen of twenty premier league managers identified him as "... the player who would take the Premier League by storm this season."

 

He started out that way, ran out of steam a bit (not surprising given the amount of games he was playing) and then got injured.

 

£20m is derisory. Double that and you're getting closer.

I normally agree with your sentiments Mike but I'm not too sure about the above! He started off the season with a couple of decent performances, mostly against fairly weak opposition in Europe (from memory) and he shined amongst the abysmal displays that his teammates were producing at the time. I don't think we could get anywhere near £40m for his services at this present time and would personally value between £20-30m as a very fair offer. He looks like a quality player, the problem is I'm still not at all convinced about him in midfield and only time will tell as to whether he has the positional sense and know how for playing CB. I think he will turn out to be a world class centre back (and POSSIBLY a world class midfielder) but I don't think it's a cast iron certainty as of yet. Rodwell is most certainly a 'classy' footballer but he needs to get involved more in matches before I see him as anything other than 'potentially' a very good player. I wouldn't like to see us sell him as we should be getting past that stage, but if we sold him for £25 million in the Summer and bought an excellent striker or two/or winger then I couldn't honestly say I would see it as bad business at this present time. After all, we do have quite a few options in midfield who I'd pick ahead of him at the moment.

Some players have that raw hunger, Gerrard did, Rooney did, they got involved, they put themselves about, Rodwell needs to start showing that passion and involvement - tiny Osman played far better and wanted it far more the other night than I've ever seen from Rodwell. He's old enough now to start producing and not living on his potential imo.

The one thing I will say is that Heitinga will not take his place. He has earned a full-time CB position for us. Him and Jags will be paired together with Distin losing out. I would love to see Cahill as captain but don't see him being the best for us on the pitch in terms of voice to the team and to the ref. I see arteta as a great captain.

The issue with this is lack of height. Heitinga and Jags aren't the tallest and Jagielka last season struggled against players like Drogba, Crouch, Carew et al. I think Heitinga has really grown into the role but I would still like to see Yobo in there, as long as he recaptures his best form. When playing well Yobo is pretty much the complete defender, tall, VERY fast, excellent tackler and a very good header of the ball. I know he was WAY out of sorts early this season but I'm hoping he may now get a run in the team and play like he is capable of. It wasn't long ago that Moyes was calling him one of the best CB's in Europe.

I think we need the committed Dave Watson type - Heitinga/Jagielka - but that we also need the pace and height that Yobo brings. Obviously if Yobo blows his next chance then it'll definitely be Heit & Jags. I still think Rodwell will end up back there anyway.

When it comes to a " dead ball ", situation, if it's a penalty then there's no other player I'd like to see stepping up than Arteta! But, corners no!....and untill he's 100% confident in his knee, free kicks where he's going for goal, then again no.

 

Pienaar's free kick the other day, over the wall and into the bottom corner! That will take some beating this season.( against Chelsea I think).

 

Donovan does take a mean corner, I'd leave him to do just that.

 

Arteta, will I hope be back to his best soon.

Pienaar's free kick against City was decent but let's face it, it only went in because the guy in the wall moved and Given should have saved it imo, as a free kick it wasn't a patch on Arteta's powerslam from nearly the corner flag against Robinson or several other of his free-kicks. I agree that at the moment he looks a little rusty but he'll only get better with practice and games, we need to give him encouragement not groaning whenever he gets something wrong. His final free-kick (shot at goal) the other night was a pretty decent effort, it was only a yard over the bar and it was hit with good pace. I think we have enough players to mix it up, I would assume Osman would be a good set piece taker, he has good skill and is one of our only players who fairly regularly scores goals from outside the box, I'd like to see him given a crack at a few free kicks on the edge of the box, alongside Pienaar, Arteta and Donovan, I don't really rate Baines delivery in general.

I can't understand why Donovan doesn't take all of our corners, I'd even put him on the free-kicks where it's beneficial to have a righty taking them. We've scored twice from Donovan corners, and Arteta doesn't have a divine right to hog all the set-pieces when 9 times out of 10 they're awful.

I really don't understand criticism of Arteta's set pieces. Granted, he went through a bit of a bad patch but he was right back on form before his injury and he set up more goals from set-pieces than pretty much anyone in the premiership. It's since his injury that we have really missed his creativity and quality at set-pieces, Baines set pieces are poor in general. Since Arteta has come back his free kicks have been abysmal, but once he gets his fitness up and his eye in I'm sure he'll be back to his best. Just because Donovan has taken a couple of decent ones I don't think we need to jump the gun, remember - Bily set up 3 goals in his first game, I don't think he's set up one since. Arteta is quality, there is no substitute. I wouldn't dispute that maybe Donovan should be taking most of them for now but I think people are overly negative on Arteta just because he lost his form and confidence for a few months early last season when he was playing out on the wing.

landon wasn't great last night, but he wasn't any worse than Neville. Pip gave him shit service all night, wouldn't have mattered an ounce had Lando made another run down the wing cuz Pip would have just lobbed it into the box.

it was Neville's pass to Cahill that helped set up the first goal. I'm not saying he played particularly well but it was difficult for him when Donovan was showing nothing in front of him.

I thought Osman probably shaded it from Cahill and Baines, he was excellent last night. I don't understand any criticism of Yobo and Distin last night? Early in the season they were terrible, Yobo looked totally out of sorts, but last night both were excellent - particularly Yobo imo who made a lot of great sliding tackles and used his pace to great effect. When players play badly then ok they deserve some stick, but players don't deserve stick just for the sake of it. Distin has done ok in most games I've seen him play recently, whilst Yobo (before he lost his place in the team due to injury last season) has been a great servant for this club. Yobo is potentially brilliant and just needed to get his confidence and concentration back following a difficult summer. Supporting players gives them more confidence, not criticising them for doing nothing wrong. Look at Osman - play him in his correct position and he'll justify his place in the team. Play him on the wing and he's not very good but at least he won't moan about it and he'll still always give 100%, yet people get on his back first chance they get. When players are lazy then have a go, when they try their best then give them support. Rant over

I agree, both Distin and Yobo had very good games, apart from the final mistake by Distin, which I mostly blame on the abysmal bouncing pass he received from Rodwell. Yobo looked like the player I know and love, he was committed, alert, super fast and looked back to his best - maybe the kidnap of his brother during pre season really hit him early on as he was unbelievably poor then. Once Yobo is on his game I believe he's one of the best CB's in the country and he and Jags/Heitinga could be awesome together. Baines is playing well again, Yakubu looked good, Cahill was excellent, Arteta still looked a little rusty but still played some nice incisive passes, Pienaar was good and Howard made some excellent saves. Sporting looked very poor imo, we should have put the game to bed but I cannot see us not scoring a goal or two over there so we shouldn't have anything to fear.