Scottish Red Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle5543052.ece It is a global game these days. Some time today a member of the royal family of Abu Dhabi will give his envoy the signal to resume talks with AC Milan about a deal to sign Brazil’s finest player on behalf of Manchester City. At the same time Chelsea’s Russian owner claims that he will commence legal action against a newspaper that claimed that he wished to sell the club to the Saudi royal family. And, when the sun rises in Texas and Colorado, Liverpool’s American owners will ponder how to solve a problem like their Spanish manager. For better or, in some cases, for worse, the Premier League is now truly a league of nations, but there is just the odd occasion that calls to mind The League of Gentlemen. The Merseyside derby is a case in point. It is what Tubbs and Edward Tattsyrup, the fiercely insular shopkeepers in the BBC television series, would call “a local match for local people”. If you are an outsider, forget it. As Edward might say, there is nothing for you at Anfield this evening — or indeed on Sunday, when Liverpool and Everton meet again in the fourth round of the FA Cup. As football has gone global, Merseyside football has gone parochial, bitterly, bitterly so. Where once, in the 1980s, Everton and Liverpool supporters revelled in a unique friendly rivalry, these days they cannot stand each other. The atmosphere, once likened to a nauseating love-in, is now as poisonous and as spiteful as any in England. It is not as corrosive as those in Glasgow or in Istanbul or in certain South American cities — yesterday’s match in Montevideo between Nacional and Peñarol ended with 53 arrests and one supporter in intensive care after a shooting — but the friendly derby has given way to the kind of rancorous hostility to which this fixture once proved a welcome antidote. There is a certain revisionism about the “friendly derby”. Some say that it was merely an unfortunate accident that arose from the two clubs dominating English football, enjoying regular trips to Wembley, at a time in the mid-1980s when the Thatcher Government was doing its best to rip the soul out of the city. Revisionists on both sides of Stanley Park look back on the era of Scouse solidarity, the red-and-blue ski-hats and the chants of “Merseyside, Merseyside”, with a mixture of embarrassment and unease. They call it a myth. What changed? Society changed. Football terrace culture changed. There was also the Heysel Stadium disaster — with Everton supporters feeling that their history was changed irrevocably by the riot involving Liverpool fans before the 1985 European Cup final against Juventus, which resulted in 39 deaths and the exclusion of English clubs from European football — but the two clubs were brought closer than ever by the Hillsborough disaster in 1989, in which 96 Liverpool supporters died. While Heysel remains a highly complex issue, it alone does not explain the way that the rivalry has sunk so far into the gutter that even the ultimate taboo, Hillsborough, has been broken while Steven Gerrard and Phil Neville, two of the nicest footballers you could wish to meet, are subjected to vile, hurtful chants about their young offspring. The poisoning of the Merseyside rivalry is one of the most depressing developments of the modern era, but it is a microcosm of what is happening elsewhere. Supporters can sit in safety and comfort in all-seater, smoke-free stadiums without fear of being charged by hooligans, but in another sense the atmosphere is more rancorous than in the 1980s. Where once there were generic threats of violence, which might just occasionally be carried out, these days the idiots compose and belt out horrific and deeply personal chants at individuals. Sticks and stones? Try talking to Gerrard, Neville, Sol Campbell, Arsène Wenger and Mido. Merseyside Police will be out in force this evening, having made clear their intention to clamp down on and eject anyone they find guilty of what they call “criminal chanting”. If the threats from the police have their intended effect, it could be the best thing that has happened to Merseyside football since the 1980s. If they do not — and if the type of poisonous atmosphere, compounded by squabbles with the police, that some fear, is witnessed tonight — you might be advised to avert your gaze and indeed your ears. It is, after all, a local match for local people. Interesting source for debate. Have things really got this bad? Since moving to Scotland I've felt a little bit out of the loop on how things have changed. My family down on Merseyside are split in two but still united as Merseysiders. They refuse to buy the S*n, they left messages of support for Rhys Jones and in times of crisis football alleigance has not mattered. The "friendly rivalry" is obviously not as friendly as it once was but is it now as bad as these journos make out? I'd never sing songs about Neville or any of the Everton players. I think it is wrong on a moral level. Songs about Rafa Benitez at Old Trafford can be abided - it's football banter. But the level of abuse has got ridiculous. Is it as bad as people make out and what were the main causes? Obviously post-Heysel there was a lot of complaint from the Everton fans but after Hillsborough things seem to calm down again and even the Rhys Jones murder. What's your take on it, guys? Are people just overreacting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I think the country in general is gradually deteriorating regarding peoples attitude towards one and other , as each generation comes to fruition . It comes as no surprise that it has entered football , and in this instance , the relationship between fans of both teams , and probably every other team too . Take a long hard look at the attitude of society in general , and it's easy to find a reflection of this on the terraces . Rid society of it's current lack of respect for your fellow man attitude , and things might start to get back to the way it was . Sorry it's not an overly football related answer , but many answers lie there , without having to discuss either team . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 The wealth gap between the clubs has helped matters but most of all I believe the influence of outsiders in passing comment on these games has been the biggest problem. When individuals start treating one party with utter contempt that can only serve to infuriate fans. Historical differences and circumstances are one thing but to hear the likes of Rafa Bitternez belittle my club with some of the most outrageous post match comments ever demeans LFC even further in the eyes of many Evertonians. If the manager of a club fails to display sportsmanship then you have no chance of ill informed fans doing so. I used to go to derby games at both grounds wearing my colours with pride I even went to a Liverpool game at Highbury with a load of kopite mates, they lost to a last minute goal, I was in heaven and no one minded because that was the way things used to be, no a days I'd get my head kicked in.l Many Liverpool fans get cheesed off with our claim to be the peoples club, if those same reds had been half as put up on as we blues have been over the years they would soon realise what it means to be a blue. The old red supporter died at about the same time as Heysel, many I knew were ashamed of their own fan base, the irony was that we blues picked up that bill.....................it was then that the derbies took on a different shade and with Bitternez running the show at Liverpool things will get worse, far worse before they get better <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottish Red Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) The wealth gap between the clubs has helped matters but most of all I believe the influence of outsiders in passing comment on these games has been the biggest problem. When individuals start treating one party with utter contempt that can only serve to infuriate fans. Historical differences and circumstances are one thing but to hear the likes of Rafa Bitternez belittle my club with some of the most outrageous post match comments ever demeans LFC even further in the eyes of many Evertonians. If the manager of a club fails to display sportsmanship then you have no chance of ill informed fans doing so. I used to go to derby games at both grounds wearing my colours with pride I even went to a Liverpool game at Highbury with a load of kopite mates, they lost to a last minute goal, I was in heaven and no one minded because that was the way things used to be, no a days I'd get my head kicked in.l Many Liverpool fans get cheesed off with our claim to be the peoples club, if those same reds had been half as put up on as we blues have been over the years they would soon realise what it means to be a blue. The old red supporter died at about the same time as Heysel, many I knew were ashamed of their own fan base, the irony was that we blues picked up that bill.....................it was then that the derbies took on a different shade and with Bitternez running the show at Liverpool things will get worse, far worse before they get better <_< Benitez calling Everton a small club was banter and the only bitter thing was the way Everton took it in my view. If Shankly did it then people would be taking it as that, banter, but because Rafa said it Blues don't like it. I can see why it'd annoy you but when Jose Mourinho called Liverpool a small club you didn't see us taking to the streets. Just a side note that though. I agree with efctaxi's point about deteriorating human values/morals. I'm a bit of a socialist so agree with that sentiment. Edited February 2, 2009 by Scottish Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Benitez calling Everton a small club was banter and the only bitter thing was the way Everton took it in my view. If Shankly did it then people would be taking it as that, banter, but because Rafa said it Blues don't like it. I can see why it'd annoy you but when Jose Mourinho called Liverpool a small club you didn't see us taking to the streets. Just a side note that though. I agree with efctaxi's point about deteriorating human values/morals. I'm a bit of a socialist so agree with that sentiment. I think that is pure pooh, it is not what was said but how its said as you are well aware, Bitternez doesn't have a sense of humour to start with, ask Robbie Keane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottish Red Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I think that is pure pooh, it is not what was said but how its said as you are well aware, Bitternez doesn't have a sense of humour to start with, ask Robbie Keane Keane was never wanted, that is clear, but to say Rafa doesn't have a sense of humour is rubbish. Have you seen some of his interviews? Even his supposed rant was packed with humour towards the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Keane was never wanted, that is clear, but to say Rafa doesn't have a sense of humour is rubbish. Have you seen some of his interviews? Even his supposed rant was packed with humour towards the end. Where?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottish Red Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Where?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Look it up again. His comments on his contract and how "by the way, it's not been signed yet" followed by a wry smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Look it up again. His comments on his contract and how "by the way, it's not been signed yet" followed by a wry smile. He was near to tears, take a good look at it in shades of glasses less red, see the press comments, he was shaking and it wasn't with laughter, talk about rewriting history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaToffee Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 From afar I can only comment based on what I read and hear, but I suspect to some degree the animosity is stoked by management of the clubs. Case in point is the strained (at best) relationship between Moyes and Benitez - in contrast to the cordial relationship Moyes enjoyed with Houllier, mutually respectful. Similar thoughts about past Everton ownership and recent / current Liverpool chairmen. The stadium issue is a good case study: on every level from both clubs' perspective, a shared stadium is the obvious direction. (Not the supporters - I get that - but the ownership and management.) But there is such a lack of respect and trust between them that both dismiss this out of hand. Not sure if there's a solution, but if there is that's probably where it starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottish Red Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I'd agree that a groundshare would be a brilliant way of reuniting the fans to some degree but it would work much more in Everton's favour. We need a much bigger ground to compare with United which is fact unfortunately. Groundshare would be an option if our two duff owners could be arsed doing anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaToffee Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) The point is with a groundshare you could even build 80,000 seats - more than either team need but allowing other uses as well (world cup? - Euro finals) and each team would still be better off financially. And a stadium hosting 38 PL games instead of 19 (plus all the extra cup games) needs a lower average attendance to pay its way. The only argumenst against are emotional - and I completely understand - but maybe it's time for a change. Edited February 2, 2009 by LeToffeeCanadien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottish Red Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 The main concern about that one I guess is...well, the Kop. We love it. We'll miss it if/when we move from Anfield and without an adequate Kop the fans won't be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Imagine the atmosphere on a derby day though 80,000+ fans with equal voice ? Now that would be something . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Imagine the atmosphere on a derby day though 80,000+ fans with equal voice ?Now that would be something . I think not, 15% for the away fans whoever it may be on the day. 12.000 against 68.000. is not equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest efctaxi Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) I think not, 15% for the away fans whoever it may be on the day. 12.000 against 68.000. is not equal. That would be a bit disappointing , though I wonder if that rule is only in practise because of the current stadium situation in the league . The idea is to generate income for both teams ... isn't it ? Bit pointless having empty seats . Any other permanant ground share clubs in the leagues ? Besides , if we want to heal the rift , there could be a ' Merseyside stand ' for both teams Edited February 2, 2009 by efctaxi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaToffee Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Indeed - and you could still maintain a "Kop" and a "Gwladys" - by reserving one end for one team's fans and vice versa, with visiting supporters alternating at the other end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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