seve

As this Ross-debate has cropped up on the "Has Martinez got it wrong?" thread, here's a minor point, but one important to me. I was disappointed to see Naismith starting ahead of Barkley against Villa. While I don't think Naismith the shite that some on TT do, I do think Naismith's strengths and weaknesses are pretty clear, so he'll not appreciably improve either his play or my opinion thereof over our final 3 matches.

 

We know what Naismith can and cannot do. But we're not totally certain about who Barkley can become, and we (not to mention Roberto) will learn a whole lot more if he's on the pitch for, say, 250 minutes the next 3 weeks. There's more to gain for the future, and probably for this season, too, by playing Barkley, not Naismith, at ACM.

 

So, as to Barkley very specifically, my answer to the thread question is, " Roberto's got it stupidly wrong if he starts Naismith over Barkley even a single time the rest of this season."

Fully agree with this we should also be giving game time to Robles and garbut for the same reasons mentioned above as I said some weeks ago.

Unless the lad reads this forum, I don't think us getting excited is any problem. Your argument is valid if aimed at the media, not the fans.

I mostly meant the numptys at the match who are always on his back to do something amazing every time he gets the ball i assume also come on here as well

and the media of course.

Lucky man, having seen the greats. But rest assured, my generation of Walker, Smith and Moyes has had some experience too. You seem to be missing the key words, being experience and potential. Both are realized by game time. I've got a lot of time and patience for youth, don't think that could be argued by anyone. But talk about impatience, you're willing to dismiss a kids potential because of a poor season in a poor team.

 

 

I have all the patience in the world with youth

which is why im trying to get you lot off his back with all this stupid talk about how good he is or could be or might be

just leave the lad alone take him off that pedicel and lets see what happens

the pressure hes under from you lot and the manager is holding him back

he has proved nothing yet but who knows without all this hype he just might.

 

i'm not a ramsey fan. cazorla is the better of the 2 in my opinion, but he's 30, and will be past it soon, so no there. ramsey is 24 but i prefer ross with the ball at his feet. in 2 years ross will be better than ramsey is at this point (comparing at the same age), so no.

 

call me stubborn, id prefer you call me intelligent.

 

you pick players to hate and have this fierce argumentative streak about you, Howard, Robles, Barkley, just give it a rest. I support the club not specific players.

The one thing you got right is my dislike of Howard and ive been proved right all season

ive never said anything derogatory about Robles and I like Barkley

I just don't like all the bullshit surrounding Barkley.

but you obviously don't like other people having opinion's if they don't agree with you

Exactly, you've defeated your own argument.

 

All anyone has ever referred to is potential (hence the speculation of caps and big transfer fee). I'll use a similar argument I've had to use before; He's only 21! It was only his second full season, playing in an awful team and completely mismanaged by Martinez. That said, it could be argued that any minutes on the pitch for him was experience, which is really the only thing he is lacking. With experience, he will learn when to release the ball, when to hold on to it, when to make the right decision. In order to learn these things, he needs to be given the opportunity on the pitch.

 

The impatience with youth among fans is staggering.

If you had said on here this kid could be a decent player in a few years no problem everyone would have agreed

but the drivel about 100 caps and 35-50mil was utter nonsense.

I think ive proved my own argument by the response ive had.

having first gone to watch EFC in 1960 I think my judgement is based on experience not impatience.

 

I wouldn't.

 

 

I'll give you an example of how your opinion of Ross is premature. JORDAN HENDERSON - no where near as talented as Barkley, Barkley has him beat in every department bar workrate and tackling.

 

However Henderson is twice the player he was 2 years ago, all because of application - mentally he improved. If the same thing happens to Ross then you are looking at a very good player indeed.

Every department apart from tackling and work rate that says it all

because hes not got a killer ball he never gets his head up

he can dribble and he can score great goals but that's not enough without the will to win and dominate opponents age is irrelevant Rooney had it at sixteen.

and for anyone who says he has a killer ball please give me an example.

 

hell no. ramsey is so hit and miss and his injury record is terrible. cazorla is good, but not in the pirlo, xavi, rakitic, modric, silva category.

so you would not swap Ross for cazorla and ramsey is hit and miss incredible.

there's loyalty and there is stubbornness

 

I'm reading your post over again to try and understand it - still not having any joy.

 

To make things clear for you:-

 

when Barkley clicks he's a match winner, a player who makers things happen. He has the potential to be world class.

 

At the moment its his mentality that needs improving.

 

A player that who can shoot with both feet, run at pace with the ball and has skill. Its applying it.

Sorry you are having trouble understanding my quotes

maybe if you take the Ross tinted glasses off.

 

neither are ramsey and cazorla. they're good but a far cry from world class.

would you swap Ross for one of them?

World class? No one on here has said that. Potentially world class yes.

100 England caps, potential world class, 35mil plus,

but no one on here has said hes world class

thought of a career in politics.

Barkley needs to step up. Simple as that really. He lacks any real aggression in his play which both Rooney and Gerrard had in abundance. Win at all costs mentality missing.

Good point I don't think he will ever have it you are born with it I have just watched arsenal in the first half

cazorla and ramsey show how a class midfielder performs

this again is not having a pop at Ross just the numptys who think hes world class.

Not really sure who you are replying to you are using my quotes but going on about rodwell?

I think we will just let this one lie.

Will he be given the freedom to learn???

 

Psychologically the half wit pricks in the stands think he should be going the paper shop for them and give him a clip round the ear for buying himself a 10p bag of white mice.

 

I'm unsure as to what this lad needs to do in order to be allowed to develop, he's cost us fuck all but is treated like he owes us match winning performance after performance. Personally I'm disgusted.

 

Yes, I've had my criticisms of Rom, but not for one second would I give him verbal abuse. But this home grown blue is getting it good style.

 

 

Is he frustrating? Yes. Is he talented? Yes, can he become brilliant? Definitely.

 

He's in danger of becoming a very talented Tom Cleverley.

I think again you are arguing the wrong point

no one dislikes the lad, no one wants him to fail

its just some of us don't buy into this superstar and a 100 England caps nonsense.

and I have to ask again why if hes so talented was he sat on the bench yesterday?

or is that down to the heading of this particular theme

has Martinez got it wrong.

 

basic skills like controlling a football? (sorry Rom)

 

I watched Barkley hit 5 or 6 balls left footed and right footed from 20 yards into an empty bag at half time - and you say he can't pass???

 

Eye for goal? He can score from distance with either foot and take a free kick. Not sure what you are looking for if i'm honest because I just completely disagree.

 

Whe someone like Carragher and Neville say this lad has everything you need to be world class then I tend to listen. Whether I like them or not they know their stuff.

are the wonderful game its all about opinions and we obviously disagree

balls into an empty net I would be disappointed if after 10 years of doing nothing else if I missed

goals 2 or 3 a season

killer passes in a game yet to see one

lifting his head to see whats on never happens

he goes missing for long periods in a game you forget hes on the pitch

as I said opinions only time will tell

 

I watched Gazza have some real stinkers as an 18-21 year old and he was getting full match time with no real injuries. A very raw player indeed.

 

It took Stevie G till he was 21-22 to have his breakout season and this is a lad who is a born leader with great mental strength.

 

Both players, arguably 2 of Englands best midfielders of the last 30 years were not near the player the were famed for becoming.

 

So saying that, it is all guess work as to where Ross becomes as a player...

 

With his talent - my guess work is that he is way ahead of the average 21 year old = very good player in the making.

both the players you mention had the basic skills when they were 16 ie pass, get your head up, and an eye for goal.

all that happened then was it was finely tuned both were regular first teamers as well

when people say Lukaku is still learning they mean fine tuning for the last 3 years he has scored over 15 PL goals

so most of his talent was there 3 years ago its not with Ross.

as I said I hope im wrong and again would you pay 30 to 50 mil for him?

I hope you are all right, and I eat my words, maybe even take a trip to burtons window

but history tells me at 21 you got it or you aint

Harvey Kendal Ball in the past Rooney in the present Gascoigne anyone whos been good has got it all at 21

Ross still can not see a pass, he tackles like scholes, when he dribbles he does not know when to stop

im sorry I just don't see the player you lot do and I don't see the valuation you seem to put on him

would you want Everton to buy him at between 30 to 50 mil as has been quoted on here.

I don't think so but I hope im wrong.

 

I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm just giving my opinion, which is what you said it was all about (and I agree with you 100%).

 

My opinion is that Ross is on a different planet to Shelvey. Ten years time Ross will have 100+ England caps and Shelvey will be lucky if he improves on his current total of one.

I know there will be some flack coming my way but I think Ross has reached his potential

I think hes another franny Jeffers, promising youngster who never improved at 21 hes still not a first choice at EFC

this is not an attack on some one I don't like I think the kid is great but I don't think he will ever be a great player

good enough for us maybe but not as good as a lot of people on this site think.

this of course is only one mans opinion I will be interested in the feed back. as for 100+ caps not even 25

 

Shelvey went to Swansea for £5m; for Ross you can put a zero after the five if he fulfils his potential, if Shelvey sorts himself out he can be a £10m player. The two shouldn't be talked about in the same breath imo.

I was answering to the fact shelvey has all the skills to be a top player but has not fulfilled that

and like it or not Ross is in the same bracket at the moment, I never mentioned price

or who would sell for what , I think you are having your own argument with yourself.

at this present time shelvey influences a game a lot more than Ross. IMO

Shelvey has all the skills to be a top top player. However he just doesn't seem to ever progress to the next level. I personally would t have him.

you could say the same about Ross but in the end it all about opinions

Like glass knees, or ageing legs?

 

Gibson, Barry and Osman are earning approx £150k+ a week with time ticking on their careers.

 

This is an £8m -£15m footballer who will cost nothing. An absolute no Brainer unless you think we've got a stack of money in reserve waiting to buy the next big thing.

I get your point when you put it like that im just not a fan of his as you can guess

we still need a midfielder who can pass a ball and tom does not come into that category.

I don't know if shelveys for sale or for how much I was just making the point

we can not afford the likes of mata or moderich excuse the spelling,but shelvey would be a big asset and in our price range imo

Barkley does not possess a range of passes sadly he never looks up

I don't think he has anything that we haven't already got

we are full of hard working midfielders we don't need another one even on a free

he would still take up a big salary we could use better else were.

we are mostly saying the same things in different ways the reason I said shelvey as an example he can pick a forward pass, he can split a defence, and he can score

something we haven't got and I am being realistic about what we can afford.

being honest we need a keeper a CB and a striker as well as midfield general as a minimum for next season.

I can agree with a lot of the above from Matt/Mark but I fear with the good finish nothing will change for next year

already people are forgetting or choosing to ignore the first 6 months of the PL

and I think some of the personal who have caused most of our problems I don't need to name them will still be hear next season because of a good end to the season

I don't think we need to spend 25/40mil on a mata or the others mentioned 10mil on shelvey would make a big difference to us

and I still think Robertos plan A only works when a team comes on to us like united and the Europa league

there is not a plan B if teams don't attack us we are clueless.

McCarthy all day long