nogs

I'd have to agree. As shite as Yobo and Distin have been recently i don't fancy taking on a side who beat Benfica at home with two reserve team players at centre back. I'm worried... Saying that, looks like we can at least put out a decent midfield and forward line. If we're short on bodies at the back, it's going to force Moyes's hand to go for it a bit - I think we have to play 4-4-2 and attack them, they looked shite at the back themselves at ours

Wouldn't disagree with you about Heitinga, he certainly adds much-needed physical presence in the centre. I just think we need RB still and that is surely what Heitinga was signed to do. I'm all for 4-4-2 if we can get the right balance of steel and creativity - it would help if we could rely on Fellaini to play like he did in the derby every match, when he plays like that I don't think there's any question he's wasted floating around behind the striker.

I still think Heitinga is a right back first and foremost, and nevermind what their 'right' position is, you couldn't get much worse than Yobo and Distin at the back yesterday, I'd rather play someone out of position just to make sure they don't play alongside eachother at the moment (see other thread), they just do not work as a pairing.

I can forgive Yobo's uncultured flailing boot diverting a crap speculative shot into his own net, but when he gave away the ball in his own box to Gerrard, i wanted him hung, drawn and quartered. Having had a night to calm down, I'll now settle for him being dropped immediately. His head has gone, he's a liability at the moment and needs some time to sort himself out. Distin's not much better, but not sure we can muster up two replacement CB's right now... And yes, I reckon Neill should be the man to go in there for Yobo. Not much good for Athens i know, but it's pretty clear that Yobo and Distin don't have any leadership qualities between whatsoever, there's no organisation between thm, no talking, no steel. Neill offers experience, leadership, grit and determination - it might not be his position, but let's face it, he couldn't do any worse, and we can't just keep throwing points away coz of bad defending like we are. Heitinga is the other obvious option, but I think he's doing a decent job covering for Pip in CM at the moment.

I agree it was great to see us actually playing anything like good football but we need points. Spurs and Chelsea up in the next couple of weeks, and no matter how well we play elsewhere on the pitch, if we don't fucking sort out the two clowns masquerading at CB for us soon, we'll get nothing out of either of those games. What worries me is we've had our 'easiest' run of fixtures for the season, if we don't get some luck go our way soon we could be in the bottom three and 14/15 points off a European place by Christmas.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-new-stadium//2009/11/27/everton-fc-ready-for-talks-on-shared-stadium-but-liverpool-fc-set-to-go-it-alone-100252-25264688/2/ Warren Bradley speaking about redevelopment of Goodison: 'He said the possible need to relocate the nearby Gwladys Street Primary school, homes in Muriel Street and Diana Street, and Walton Motors to allow for the redevelopment of Goodison was “not a massive hurdle”.' I always thought it was the council's opposition that made moving the school unfeasible? After all this, could we end up knocking down Goodison and rebuilding on the same site afterall?

Cheers for that summary Bailey - much better than I could have managed! What I do agree with even when I'm arguing that our finances are not as bad as is made out sometimes, we are walking something of a tightrope, and it does make investment in players difficult. In defence of the Kenwright regime, I think it's fair to say he's steered us on a course of steady, gradual progress on and off the field. In criticism, steady progress might not be enough when our rivals can invest more heavily in the team, meaning we risk grinding to a halt altogether if we can't keep finishing in the top seven or eight. And, crucially, he's failed to deliver us a new stadium. As I've made clear I think kenwright has done a good job, but we need more than he can offer now. I'd be delighted to see the club sold to the right person - but only the right person

Handshake accepted... As Dave Prentice said in the Echo today, we should all stop bickering about the rights and wrongs of the club really coz it doesn't do anyone any good. The fact is, at the moment the team is playing shite and we all need to get behind them, we need to sort a new ground and all need to make our voices heard on getting a realistic solution sorted asap, and Kenwright - however we judge his pat record - is probably not the right guy to take us forward if we wanna make the next step forward. I reckon we can agree on that much anyway

If we lose him we're fucked, Saha isn't gonna last more than a couple of seasons, we'd be lucky to find another 20-goal a season striker under 25 for £10m

Gotta say it's spot on about Arteta/Pienaar - we weren't great at start of the season but at least we could win a match, since Pienaar's been out we've been dreadful. Will he be fit enough to start Sunday? Him and Bily on the wings, you never know, we might even be able to pass a ball every now and then

I reckon finishing in the bottom half would be a disaster for us, nevermind relegation - and yeah, it's looking a real possibility. All the hard work of the last three years is unravelling before our eyes, I can see Pienaar/Yak leaving in the summer if we're not at least somewhere near qualifying for Europe again. God I hope we pull a miracle out the bag and beat the shite on Sunday, but as bad as they are this season, the sad fact is we're worse. I agree with Romey, the defence is a shambles, nevermind Distin, Yobo is playing like an absolute tool. But in all honesty we're poor all over the park, I dunno how Saha has scored 10 goals this season coz the use fo teh football in midfield is shocking, we used to play better stuff with Pembridge and Gemmill in the centre!

Who knows? You'd kind of hope two clubs the size of Everton and Liverpool would be able between them to leverage enough investment to get a project like that off the ground. Tenaciousj - Good argument but if Liverpool City Council are thinking like this, why haven't they been pushing the idea in public for years, and putting pressure on both clubs to make it happen? The way i see it they've just been interested in flogging land to the highest bidder whether its football-related or not, and don't really seem to give a shite about either club

So come on - Kirkby is dead, we're all broadly happy about that, but let's face the facts, we're back to square one with a ground that is too far gone to redevelop, that is not capable of producing enough match day revenue for us to compete with other clubs that have built/redeveloped stadiums, and which is arguably a main reason why we're unable to attract investment. Elstone has apparently now suggested we would consider a joint stadium scheme with Liverpool. Without any other options on the table, can we seriously afford to dismiss it based on not liking the red shite very much? Liverpool is putting in its World Cup 2018 bid today - I don't know what's in it, but I imagine it will get laughed out the room at the moment given the fact that no one knows if either of the two football grounds currently in the city will even exist in 2018. It might be too late for the World Cup bid, but isn't it time for the council and the two clubs to sit down and seriously talk about the Stanley Park site anyway? The ares over tit stadium redevelopment plans of both clubs must be making the city a laughing stock all the way from Sunderland to Southampton. I know what the reaction of most of you will be, but we're just been turned over by Hull, our manager looks as if he's ready to pack it in, we've got a casualty list like something out of a Die Hard film, we've failed in yet another stadium plan and right now it's pretty hard to decide who are the bigger bunch of clowns, the team or the directors. We're in danger of proving all the snides who aid it was a fluke we finished in the top 6 three years on the row right, and being relegated (literally maybe?) back to being an also-club. We need to do something drastic, and if sharing an 80,000 stadium with the shite will mean we can attract investment and stay close to where we belong, then I'm up for it.

Easy... Howard Hibbert Yobo Distin Neill Cahill Heitinga Rodwell Baines Saha Yakubu Reminds me of the old Walter Smith days of playing six centre backs in the same team.... One thing to note, though, SEVEN of that team are full internationals, six of them current regulars for their country (and on current form, Saha arguably should be). If they can't beat Hull there's something seriously wrong.

No, my entire argument is that we're NOT that badly in debt, for a top-flight football club, based on the published FACTS that our debt is around £39m, secured on a turnover of £75m-plus. I'm not asking you to change your opinion on Kenwright, but if you're going to dismiss my arguments in such a patronising way you could least do me the courtesy of putting a figure on the club's debt as you see it, and where you got it from.

I started out being pretty ambivalent about the Kirkby move, erring on the side of support maybe, becuase it's pretty obvious Goodison isn't up to scratch anymore and isn't going to get the makeover it needs (needed to be done 15 years ago if at all). But the longer this saga goes on, the more you get the impression the board have put all their eggs in one basket on this one, no plan B - Elstone saying we'll be a bottom half club in 10 years if it doesn't go ahead, wtf?!? What kind of business plan is that? What's the contingency? It just reeks of us being seduced by Tesco's offer of cash and waking up one day to find we've signed our future away to Sir Terry and his merry men. He might be an Everton fan, but he's a brutal business man - I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the small print we stand to lose a load of money to Tesco if this doesn't go ahead, which is why the board are sounding so desperate. We should have walked away long ago in my opinion, but perhaps that's not an option now.

Fair enough, but we didn't have two strikers of the quality of Yak and Saha at the club to warrant playing two up top. I don't like criticising Moyes either, but you've got to admit, the way we played against Sunderland 'that' day was the exception rather than the rule - I just wonder whether he's got it in it to let any team of his off the reigns and go out to batter a side. Like you say, he plays Gosling just to keep numbers in the midfield, even tho he must surely know the poor kid is not offering anything going forward or in defence this season.

And Villa, and Spurs, and Sunderland. Not to mention Pompey, Bolton and two of the teams relegated last season, Newcastle and Boro. I know my reasons for my opinions as well, and it's got nothing to do with BK 'being a nice guy'. Just to reiterate my original point, in case you missed it - football has become all about buying success, which I think is not only a shame, it is putting the future of clubs at risk. All clubs borrow money to invest in the team to try to win trophies, so it becomes a matter of balancing debt against success. A tiny few - Chelsea and now Man City - are fortunate enough to have super-rich investors who hand them interest free loans. These are a tiny minority and not really anything to aspire to as attracting a billionaire who's prepared to invest hundreds of millions out of their own pocket is highly unlikely. Others - like Man Utd and Arsenal - have developed a big enough 'brand' over many years of success to make large-scale borrowing viable. Most teams fall somewhere in the middle - even those with rich 'investors' most often use them to leverage more borrowing in the form of guaranteeing loans. As I said, it then becomes a question of balancing borrowing to invest in the team with success on the pitch - if you stretch yourself too far and success doesn't follow, you're in trouble, as seen by Leeds, Newcastle, Pompey, West Ham and, potentially, Liverpool. So i think BK's biggest 'crime' is caution - he could have gone hell for leather and borrowed more and more to try and strive for the top four, but he knew the risks to the club's future if we didn't get there. In either case, to some sections of the club's support he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't - if he borrows too much, he gets slammed for the levels of debt, if he doesn't invest in the team, he gets slammed for that too. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I accept fully that we're never gonna get to where we want to be without serious investment, which will mean the end of BK's time in charge. But the facts as I see them are that we've been better run for the past ten years than a hell of a lot of other football clubs, which means we've got a better chance of attracting the right kind of investment than we did when BK took over.

I know as a club we owe Moyes a lot, but I'm starting to wonder whether his, shall we call it 'cautious' approach, is ever going to win us anything. I don't like making knee-jerk reactions to bad runs of form - we've had the worst luck imaginable with injuries this season, and we are a team that tends to go on long runs of poor form followed by long runs of great results. But Spurs' 9-1 mauling of Wigan got me thinking - are we ever going to see that kind of football played by Moyes, and if not, can we ever expect him to win anything? Bar the Sunderland game, I can't remember us ever giving anyone a real drubbing under Moyes (although we've been on the receiving end of a few hidings), we just don't ever play that kind of free-spirited attacking football that I think you need to be successful. Moyes has never gone for that approach, at Preston or us - Someone like Redknapp, on the other hand, has always tried to play good attacking football, even with the kids at West Ham when they got relegated, and looks like he's reaping the awards with it now with (I hate to admit this) what looks like a very, very good Spurs side. Maybe I'm just letting the last six weeks get to me, but even with our first 11 out - which i still think is a match for anyone on paper - I can always see Moyes playing one up top, putting defence first and trying to hussle for 1-0 wins. I'd happily take that right now, starting with Hull and Liverpool, but in the long run we're gonna get left behind by sides that go out and look to put three or four past the opposition every game.

Pretty sound assessment of Fellaini's pros and cons, I think the big thing for me is his passing ability, especially for a guy with such good touch, if he could just distribute the ball he'd look a top player, would make up for his lack of pace too. But for me the big thing is being played in loads of different positions - I know he has a good goal scoring record but I just don't see him as an auxiliary forward, juts throwing him up there coz he's big and can hold off defenders is just naive in my opinion, you certainly need pace to play up top in the modern game, and for me he doesn't have the instinct to play that killer final ball say a Beardsley would play, and when he's in the box he doesn't attack the ball like a natural goalscorer. I've said it for a while now, i think Moyes is doing him a disservice trying to turn him into something he's not, he needs a long run of games at centre mid, I think we'd see him develop much better. I'd personally have the Yak in top ten signings rather than Yobo, when fit and sharp he is as lethal as Saha, perhaps a little more brute strength rather than finesse, but to my mind is best finisher we've had since... erm, Cottee?

Not being funny but you haven't answered the question - is our debt just under £40m or not? Coz these are public accounts which under law have to be truthful, which kinda makes me inclined to believe them. If we do have a debt of £40m, as i posted elsewhere in this thread, that's lower than most prem clubs, and hasn't increased significantly in the past five or six years at least.

Your phrase 'in spite of Kenwright' to describe our success on the pitch in recent doesn't exactly suggest you think everyone in the club is working together

Right, someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong with clear, undisputable evidence to the contrary - here are the official accounts from 2003 and 2008, clearly stating that our debt was £34m in 2003, and £39.5m in 2008. I don't fully understand the balance sheets, but i do know that all the stuff listed in 'creditors' does not equal our debt - if you add all those figures in brackets up, you get a massive sum of money, but that's not 'debt' as in borrowings, it's stuff like money invested by shareholders (i.e. what would be owed if the club was for some reason forced to but back all shares at once) and money owed in transfer deals. http://www.evertonfc.com/assets/_files/documents/dec_08/efc__1229522006_EFC_Report_and_Account_2008.pdf http://www.evertonfc.com/assets/_files/documents/jul_08/efc__1215074774_Accounts03.pdf I think it's important to get this sorted coz it as Everton fans no one is really clear what the financial situation of the club really is, so how can we make a judgment.

I don't think Rodwell's the type to leave - he's playing regular Prem and European football, he's come through the ranks and he can see former academy players around him who have become established prem players under Moyes. Rooney had his head turned by a w**ker of an agent who saw a quick buck and filled his head with tales of trophies and superstardom, Rodwell is still looked after by his dad and is hopefully bright enough to realise he can become a superstar at Everton FC. Apart from that, I don't think he's quite in the Gerrard/Fabregas/Rooney bracket - they were match winners at 18, he's solid, one who's gonna get better the more he plays. He'd rot in the reserved at Chelsea, they never bring kids on, he'd probably do the same at City with all their stars. Fergie would probably do a great job with him, but he wouldnt be playing much first team football for a couple of years, so why bother? I resent all the talk that we're 'vulnerable' to offers and desperate for a quick buck - Lescott wanted to go, and let's face it, we fleeced City for him, he's been dreadful for them. The only way Rodwell will go is if he wants to, and like I started off saying, i just don't think he will.

Sorry mate you're wrong. Look at how the sentence is put together - "Moyes is determined to keep Rodwell," one clause, stating Moyes's thoughts, which is pretty bleeding obvious. Then, entirely new clause, "whose ability... puts his value at £9m." Moyes isn't doing the 'putting', it's 'Rodwell's ability' - in other words, pure conjecture on the part of the journo. I'm a former journo myself, i know how this stuff works