nogs

That's the entire problem right there. 4-5-1 might SOMETIMES work with Pienaar and Arteta on the pitch, offering the vision and creativity for Cahill and Fellaini to break from deep. But surely, SURELY without their influence, you're GOT to play two up front, especially when, in Saha, Yakubu and Jo, we've got the kind of strikers who do open up defences on their own and score goals out of nothing. Even more so at home, against Stoke and Wolves... What's so frustrating is that after a dismal start we had started to put a bit of a run together, two wins in the last two games - which has gotta be the easiest double-header on paper we'll have all season - and we could have put the poor start behind us. But no, Moyes plays it cautious, and although the run without a defeat has continued, it hardly matters when we've only taken two points from teams like Wolves and Stoke. I guess you could say our finishing was poor Saturday and Yobo's mistake for their goal was abysmal, but no excuses, we should have been going all out to stuff a team like Wolves 3 or 4 nil. The silver lining is that we will be a much better team when Pienaar, Arteta and Jags are back, but it's really annoying that we are going to have to play catch up again second half of the season when with a bit of ambition we could easily have been sat just behind the early front runners now.

Anyone know what his list of injuries are? Cruciate in both knees follwed by a series of cartilage problems? And how many ops? It's sad for him but I can't see how he can ever get back playing full time with all this. Your knee is more vulnerable after cruciate damage coz of the scar tissue, which makes cartilage damage more likely. Cartilage heals badly - the amount of damage the poor lad's had i wonder if he's got any non-scarred cartilage left. I guess the other thing he's gotta ask himself is is it worth it. It's like Ledley King - have injections all week to take swelling out your knee to play, and the it still goes every couple of months. He could risk being crippled if he's not careful

Yeah he would have done - it's Class B again, automatic arrest no matter what the quantity

Right on brother! Have to say I'm with you all the way on this one, the amount of pisshead footballers who have drank their careers away and STILL got the backing of fans, i think to slaughter a kid over a bit of weed is more than harsh. And as for the law, believe me, they'll automatically nick you for possession with intent to supply if you have anything more than a couple of joints worth on you... and who knows if it was even his, if it was found on someone he was with at a house or something that's an automatic arrest, the bizzies dont stand around asking who it belongs to. That said, the kid should know better - maybe growing up in Bootle he's known a fair few shady characters, but football has given him a chance to do something better with his life than be a scally on the streets selling dope and ripping people off. You'd just think he should have the sense to be a bit more careful and not risk his career over something so stupid - then again, i guess footballers and brains don't always go together

Don't remember Billy Kenny at all - I was only 12, but I was a complete football obsessive nut in them days, thought I would have done... If its true its a big shame for Jose, could have thrown a career away before he's even started. But football is rife with it - it basically teaches young impressionable lads that they are something special, something better than the mere mortals who watch them every week, throws crap loads of money at them and pretty much leaves them to their own devices. I used to work on the local paper in Crewe and the stories about some of them lads, kids taken off rough estates in manchester and Liverpool to join the Academy there at 13, 14, were unbelievable - and Gradi was rated as one of the best at handling young kids in the game. Some - the Rooneys, Giggs, Rodwells - seem level-headed enough, or just obsessed with playing football enough, to handle it all. But for everyone of them, there's probably another 10 who prefer the high life, the booze, late nights, drugs, all the temptations that come with being young, dumb and loaded. I'm not gonna judge - I've given in to enough temptations in life, but then i didnt have a fantastic talent to waste On another matter, if Baxter is guilty he'll probably face youth offenders given his age, so he could still come out the other side I guess

Got booted off the lap top at half time by a very irate and stressed out missus who had a whole day's worth of GCSE lessons to plan - tried to explain it was Everton but there were tears - so I dried my eyes and headed to the pub... Anyway, arrived just in time to see Timmy C lofting the ball beautifully over their stranded keeper for 2-1. What was it i said about him and Felli first half? It's great being plain wrong sometimes As predicted, not a great display but one hell of a result. Get in!

Nevermind Yak, Jo's crocked now... unless Moyes comes up with something legendary in his half time team talk we might as well write this one off

If by bossing the game you mean managing to find a BATE player with 90 per cent of our passes, which usually consist of a hopeful 60 yard punt from the back, then yeah, we're right on top... And to answer your Yak question, a couple of teenagers, Agard or Baxter

Oh God this is painful. If I was a Slalinist I'd be recommending Jo, Fellaini and Cahill for the Gulag. Pull your fingers out ffs!

Big ask to go there and take them apart like we did to Athens with Pienaar, Saha and Rodwell all out - that's a lot of creativity and spark gone from the team. That said, in Bily and Baines we've got two great dead ball specialists to feed Cahill, Felli, Yobo, Jo etc in the air, so I'll be happy to see us play deep, get men behind the ball, not concede a goal and try hit them from set pieces. Might not be pretty but any kind of win there puts us in a fantastic position. Howard Hibbert Yobo Distin Baines Gosling Osman Fellaini Bily Cahill Jo Subs: Yak a definite to come on for 20 mins/half an hour, esp if we're losing, then whichever of the kids Moyes feels confident in giving a run out. Not a lot of options really when you look at it!

Point taken chaps can I edit the topic?

I dunno if this is the right place to put this but I came across this on Facebook: English Defence League - Everton Branch Now without getting too deep into the politics of it all, as far as I'm concerned the EDL are a shady bunch of anti-muslim BNP supporters who have already caused trouble in London, Luton and Birmingham, and Casuals United are an even shadier bunch of thugs with a right wing agenda. I dunno about anyone else but I am NOT in anyway happy for our club to be associated with this bunch of clowns, especially as it looks like no one who supports/is involved in the club has set this group up, its all come from the Casuals United website. They even claim to use Goodison as an office ffs! If anyone is in support, I'd like to get a petition going to shut this slur on our great club down. We've well and truly left the dark old days of being labelled a racist club behind, let's not get dragged into the dirt again by these tossers with an agenda most honest Blues I'm sure don't support

I think the NSNO article has taken Moyes' comments completely out of context and put a very 'creative' spin on it to say the least. From the same quotes i read on the Echo website, it was pretty obvious Moyes was talking about Yak's current state of being 100% match fit, in other words, yes, I know I could stick him on and if the ball got to him he'd bury it, but right now he's not quite up to doing all the other work the team needs. It was Moyes explaining why he isn't starting Yak yet, which i think we'd all agree with - very different to saying he's not the right kind of player for the club! Check your sources!

Jeez some of you are a whingeing bunch of bar stewards. Yeah it wasn't a vintage performance and we have Howard to thank for a couple of class saves, but Pompey were absolutely gee'd up to the max for that, Fratton Park sounded like something out of an Istanbul derby (the treatment of Pienaar when injurd was horrible - hard not to feel a little intimidated when home fans behave like that), and I think the general hell-for-leather, boot in first, ask questions later physical approach would have made it very difficult for any team to play against to be honest, it was desperation stuff from them (remember how we used to play at home sometimes when we were languishing around the bottom of the league?). Saying all that, if Fellaini could learn to put some power behind his headers and Cahill had had a bit of luck, we'd have won a lot easier. Fact is we won, that's four clean sheets on the bounce so I dunno why the defence is getting so much stick, and why all the slagging of Heitinga?! I'm at a loss to know exactly what he did wrong - or is this just another case of smart arse Everton fans falling over themselves to say "I told you he was a waste of money" at the first opportunity whenever a new signing doesn't play like Pele and Maradona's love child first few games (like Felli last season)? In my opinion, Bily had a far less impressive game when he came on - in open play he is still way off the pace, and for once his dead ball delivery was awful, yet everyone's still got their tongue down the back of his shorts - ah well, football's great for dividing opinion, hey? In summary, yeah we're not playing our best stuff on the road, but a win's a win, even the best win ugly sometimes, and the important thing is we're building some real momentum now.

Well i think for his age, his potential and the price strikers go for, that would be a reasonable price - £6m less than City paid for him, remember. But yeah, would be dependent on him banging a few in for us I agree. My personal preference would be to stop using Felli in the forward-looking role he played last season - I know he got goals but it's not his game. Let him play in the centre - he can tackle, pass and cause problems going forward, I'm not sure Cahill has the same all-round attributes and I don't think he works well in a 4-4-2, so if that's how we're gonna play, for me Tim C is the one who has to miss out. And I hate saying that because he's one of my favourite players in the team, but realistically I think an on-form Jo, Yak and Saha playing up front together will score more goals than him.

I agree, as a leader and as a professional I can't fault Phil Neville and I think he deserves a special place in Everton's history for essentially leading us through the Moyes revival on the field. But on another thread I was talking through the options we have in midfield and how great it was to have selection headaches and I'd forgotten all about him. Looking at what we have, i think it would be madness to think of him as an automatic starter because, truth be told, we have better footballers who can play in the centre. I think it's great that Felli will now get a run in his favoured position, I know Moyes has said he wants to protect Rodwell but trhe way he's playing he hardly looks like he needs it, it's hard to leave Cahill out with his goal threat and we've got Arteta to come back... is Neville really first choice ahead of all of them? I've never been a great fan of him in the middle anyway tbh, I'd rather see him take the armband again and play at right back. But again, Heitinga, Neill, Hibbert... there's competition, which is great for the club. No way i'm saying he shouldn't get a look in, but he should have to earn his place back in the side on merit, not just because he's been captain.

I think over the past three games Felli and Rodders in centre mid has looked an awesome combination, and has made no small contribution to our sudden finding of form. Midfield four of Bily, Rodwell, Fellaini and Pienaar looks the business - hard I know to leave Tim C out, I love him, but he's never been a 4-4-2 player, would be a great impact sub tho and an option to swap to 4-4-1-1 for tougher away games (altho early doors against Athens he did play deep alongside Rodders with Felli pushing on, he looked good but the opposition was crap). And then Arteta to come back, Osman and Gosling as options - oh to have selection headaaches, hey DM?! And to get back on topic - yeah i think Jo is an excellent third choice striker, nowhere near as leathal in front of goal as the Yak and Louis, but what a pair to learn from. With Louis getting on, I don't think we can afford not to sign Jo outright - and let's face it, Man Shitty aren't gonna have any great need for him. I reckon we wanna be planning that now, get a £12m bid in as soon as possible early summer

Anyone know how many assists he's 'officially' been credited with so far? I make it five - the corners for the first two v. Athens and then the lay off to Pienaar, pass to Yak last night and free-kick for Jo's goal. Any improvements?

Yeah I read that - wonder how much we could get simao for if they went down?

If only you'd gone for Lama Lips...

Couldn't disagree with you more about Fellaini. I thought second half, although it wasn't much of a contest, he started to look like a proper player sat in the centre of the park - his touch was good, he was strong in the tackle, read the game well, picked out the passes, knew when to venture forward and drop back. The thing is, despite his 9 goals last season, he is NOT an auxiliary striker or in-the-hole attacking midfielder - he's a centre mid player, and if he's ever gonna look like he's worth £15m, he needs to play there, pushing him up all the time isn't going to help him develop. I actually thought him and Rodwell showed hints they could be a good partnership in the middle, they've both got good physical presence, can pass a ball, can tackle and get up the other end and cause problems. They're just lacking experience I reckon - Felli is still a kid himself, remember. As for Bily - Hinchcliffe?! I was thinking Sheedy myself... Agree his left foot looked awesome, but I reckon it'll be a while before we see the best of him in the Prem - he certainly wasn't in physical shape to do all the running and back tracking Moyes demands, and if he found the pace of this game a challenge to keep up with, he's gonna have a hell of a shock in the league. Give him a few weeks to work on his fitness and play as sub a few times, then let's see what he can do

Get him signed I say. I dunno where all this 'we've got too many options at the back' is coming from - we're SERIOUSLY short of numbers. What would happen if Yobo or Distin got injured in the next few weeks? With Lescott, Valente and Jacobsen gone, we're actually less than we were at the back last season - Hibbert, Heitinga, Neville, Distin, Yobo, Jags, Baines. Gosling is a RM, not a RB. That's not even two men per position. And I know people keep banging on about Coleman and Duffy, but they've obviously not done enough for the reserves to look like first team players so far this season, so let's not clutch at straws. So yeah, free agent with tons of Prem experience, gritty attitude and captain of his national side - plus a personal recommendation from Tiny Tim - no brainer really. And whoever said sign up Michael Ball for nowt, that's not a bad idea either coz the way i see it we have one natural left back in the squad at the moment

I personally think if yoyu spend £15m on two international players you've got to trust them to be good enough to be thrown into the first team from day one. They're not gonna learn about the pace of the Premiership on the training pitch, sooner they start playing games the sooner they gelo with the rest of the team. I just think its another sign of Moyes being over-cautious - Martin O'Neill threw three new defenders in from the start in a local derby and they won, but Moyes would never dream of taking a chance like that. In my opinion, the way we've been playing, Heitinga and Bily should have started just for the kick up the backside it would have given anyone. Instead, it's another three points down the drain from a team that is badly underperforming

Arggghhh, that Fulham result has seriously p***ed me off, time for a proper moan. Now I'm a big fan of Moyes, I love what he has done for the club and the passion and determination to succeed he has instilled in the club. But he still has a tendency to show he he is far from the finished article for a top-class manager by making some infuriatingly bad decisions, and today there were, in my opinion, a catalogue of them: 1. Bilyaletdinov and Heitinga on the bench. Why? I was annoyed by the team selection even before we kicked off. If we'd won all three league games so far and the team was pleying right on top of its game, you could justify leaving £15m of new signings (plus another £15m in Fellaini on the bench). But we've started really poorly, and I don't think a last minute scraped win via a penalty at home versus Wigan qualifies for 'don't change a winning team'-type cliches. In the first three games, we've looked like a team crying out to be freshened up. Instead, Moyes left it as it was, and we lost. Enough said. 2. Tactics. Second half, we just didn't seem to have any. Hodgson is a skilled tactician and a good motivator and Fulham were a different team after the break. We just didn't respond. At times Moyes' preferred 4-5-1 looks incredibly one-dimensional and there is apparently no plan b. Which is worrying when we haven't kept a clean sheet in four matches and didn't ever look like scoring second half, eventually resorting to the aimless long ball as desperation set in. Moyes has gotta do much, much better in my opinion to build flexibility into the side and be able to respond to things going against us on the pitch. He relies far too much on guts and determination to haul us back - if that fails, we're screwed. 3. Substitutions. Following on from the one-dimensional tactics were the choice of substitutions, which really wound me up. We've signed Heitinga as a full-back, right? So when Neville got injured, why did he come on instead of, say, Fellaini, who last time I looked was a centre mid player we paid £15m for? What exactly is Moyes' obsession with playing defenders at centre mid anyway? It didn't work with Jags, it's still not Neville's best position and I'm pretty damn sure it's not Heitinga's either. And then to throw Fellaini on for Jo was just bizarre - I know we did fantastic with no fit strikers available last season, but let's face facts, neither Fellaini or Cahill are centre forwards, so why purposefully choose to go with no natural strikers for a quarter of the match when you're still drawing 1-1? Negativity, or just naivety? And that got exposed as a really poor decision when we went 2-1 down and Moyes had to throw Yakubu on to chase the game. Suddenly Cahill is playing wide right, a complete and utter waste, with Fellaini pushing up front, and with a full-back in centre mid, we had no balance in midfield whatsoever and predicatbly resorted to hoofing pointless long balls from the back. Rant over, anyway. Long way to go, I know, and I for one won't be getting carried away, but it's another atrocious start to the season. Moyes could do with learning from some of these mistakes, and fast.

Congratulations I think you have pretty conclusively managed to defeat your long-winded argument in just 12 words... The fact is, before the Lescott sale Moyes was looking at young, unproven players from the Championship and below (Naughton, Delph), basically meaning we didn't have much in the way of funds and were having to go down the 'nurturing talent' route. I don't get why people get so angry when players we target DON'T sign - that is football, it happens to every club - yes, even the Chelsea's, Man City's and ManUre's of the world. And the fact that we keep losing players to Spurs is simple - they have a ridiculous wage policy and are quite happy to pay players like bentley to warm the bench on upwards of £50k a week. Now fastforward to the Lescott sale - no one wants him to go, least of all Moyes it seems - or that's what he makes out. Coz actually, he's playing a very clever game - he knows City are loaded, so he milks them for all he can get, and wins. With that money, he buys a two established internationals aged 25 and under and a highly experienced and reliable Premiership centre back. And let's make no bones about it - Heitinga is FAR better than Naughton, and Bily is FAR better than Delph. So you could argue we've actually done better in the transfer window than the club hoped to do at the end of last season. Where I do agree with you is the disappointment we haven't brought in Defour or Banega - I think we needed a creative centre mid to cover for Arteta, and our bid for Defour was well below his market value (esp if Felli was worth £15m), but i don't think there's much we can do about valencia changing their mind on Banega. But as you say, Captain - what we have got now is better than what we had last season. That's progress, isn't it. So you keep your money in your pocket and bitch on about Kenwright (or go support City if a club throwing their cash around is what gets you off), I'm looking forward to the adventure ahead.