Oztoffee

I wonder what some of you folks are smoking? Heitinga is a class act and World Cup finalist FFS! He has somehow fallen out of favour with Moyes but that doesn't change his ability and the fact that he should be an integral part of the future of the club in any other circumstance. Sounds as if some folks on here would just let him go.... also, is it just too much to wonder why he's out of favour? Beats the shit out of me I must confess. If anyone has any real ideas I'd like to read 'em The bloke was a hero not too many moons ago when he gave a certain penalty-taker a bit of a hurry-up on his way to the spot! Worked wonders too! We spoke about attitude and true-blue and all that sort of stuff.......amazing what a couple of wins at the start of a new season will do to some peeps memories. Heitinga needs to stay!

On the subject of money.... what sort of wages are the players on at Goodison? It would be interesting to know too how well or otherwise the fringe players are paid......Barkley etc. etc. How do there payments compare to the Championship? A lot of questions I know....but I'm well out of the loop Down Under!

The doom-sayers have been quiet of late as the Blues perform their usual end of season 'big come-back'. This has become such a feature of the past 10 years or so, it is almost carved in stone. We all know where we would be in the league had we not given away games we should have won against lesser teams early in the season......yeah, yeah I know we could all say 'If only..' about almost anything, but the answer keeps coming up 'Why does this happen every year?' I admit that I originally put it down to lack of preparation, and sticking to the old format of playing MSL sides instead of teams with a bite. And together with many others I have been totally frustrated with Moyes' crazy substitutions, seeming lack of back-up plans and playing favourites instead of in-form players even if it means playing them out of position. And I have said on here numerous times that if we don't sort this out soon we'll still be talking about the same problem next season.......and this has come to pass many times! However....and please forgive me if this has been mentioned before and I've been too slow to pick up.....I believe Moyes' negativity and other perceived faults stem from fear of relegation. Look back over the last 10 years, we havn't started to play as we know we can until we've got about 36/38 points in the bag. Moyes then lets it all loose, the boys start playing with style and verve, believing they can win and the results follow. Unfortunately by that time we're 20 odd points behind the leaders and on that basis alone Champions League football is an era away. The mantra is 'We Must Not Lose'..... at all costs? This creates negativity and stifles anything constructive. Moyes' reliance on favourites stems from the fact that those players are reliable and real club-men while the newcomers have yet to earn that accolade. While it is an admirable trait, it also ignores the fact that the newcomers have real talent that is stifled because of lack of faith. I would really like to see anyone's thoughts on the matter....... but be kind, I'm an old man:)

I agree. You have to bear in mind that the manager tells the players what he wants them to do. This is why Moyes likes certain players so much....they do what he says without complaint, even if they lose! Also probably why strikers don't go too well here....they are the creators, if you like and they don't like being told to do things that will reduce their creativity and effectiveness. A bit like being a muso and being told that you have to play like Mrs Mills today (how good is your memory?) and Axel Rose tomorrow. Creative folk just can't do that effectively and it shows in their performance. Don't like the way defenders hoof it forward?......the manager has the last say. Don't like the way Cahill doesn't get into the box as much.....the manager has the last say. Etc. Etc. Moyes has to play to players' strengths and get rid of this 'one style suits all' attitude.

I think we're all (except Avin) on the same page here. Also it matters little in these discussions who would be a creditable replacement. You really have to decide one way or the other....does he go or does he stay? IMHO I personally think he's run out of ideas, much like a near bankrupt businessman who can see the company sinking, but doesn't know how to stop it. I really don't think that he has the ability or the cojones to pull anything out of the box that will change the situation. I have said on here over 2 years ago that if he didn't go then (as was rumoured) we'd still be discussing the same problems in 2 - 3 years (as has proved to be the case). Get used to it folks.... nothing is going to change. As to who should be a replacement.... if you look back at why it was Moyes that arrived here in the first place, he was a young, relatively successful boss from a lower league crying out to be given an opportunity. He was given it. But time moves on and Davey hasn't progressed any, in fact has stagnated. As others have said, there are a number of good possibilities. The ones mentioned above have one great feature.....they are all 'go-getters' and their teams play attractive attacking football (OK two features;). We need tactical awareness, someone not afaid to try something new, to try new players, to drop non-performers etc.etc. Who is the best bet that would take the opportunity if offered?

Couldn't agree more. It really does just seem as if Moyes and some players have forgotten what the whole game is about. A want- to- win- attitude is a wonderful thing to have, yet it seems to be sadly lacking for whole games or part-games. Dropping points (and whole games) to very inferior teams seems to be a regular ocurrence rather than one-off mishaps. It is frightening that we can play both so well and so badly in the same game because of tactical changes and baffling substitutions. It scares the shit out of me: the opposition just have sit it out and wait for the changes and they're back in the game! We certainly have not shown anything like the form or the attitude that is required to be successful. In fact we look like a team scared to death of losing and many of the team selections and substitutions seem only to bolster that view. We need to go out to win games, not go out to save a point. That's why they changed to 3 points for a win. And a point a game means guaranteed relegation!

Perhaps not Avinalaff. This has been an ongoing saga for probably 3 years now - same problems, no solutions. By the way, I had a question mark after 'Time for Moyes to go?' This was to try to stimulate some meaningful discussion on the subject. It really does seem that Moyes has almost as many fans as he does detractors. You say 'he's a damn nice guy too'. If you've met him, perhaps you could give us some insight into the man. I for one would be glad to read it.

OK...so how come we're in the bottom five again? 'We always start badly.' OK.... so why hasn't the problem been fixed? We've seen this for years. The team is basically the same at the end of the season as it was at the start! There is something radically wrong in what Moyes is doing at the season start then. 'We don't have the players' Many on here reckon we have the players.....it's what Moyes does with them that is the difference. Misplaced loyalty to out-of -form players, leaving top players on the bench until it's too late to make a difference, playing players out of position rather than bring in someone young and fresh....etc. etc. We've all discussed this for years, but nothing changes. My belief is that Moyes is in many respects the author of his own demise.....too reliant on trying to repeat past successes with old tactics and old ideas. Some team selections and substitutions beggar belief. When we criticise players we must not forget that they are playing to the managers instructions. Ossie out wide? ......blame the boss! Rodwell ineffective in a holding role?......blame the boss! The players are doing a job. If the manager selects them in an unfamiliar role they can hardly be blamed for not turning in a top performance. Time for Moyes to go?

Thanks for that info on links. Don't know how successful it'd be.......many on here complain about links all the time, but I'll certainly have a go! Thanks again!

I too can remember the days when we were "The Merseyside Millionaires" when John Moores was backing the club. But never at any time was the disparity between the top and bottom clubs so big as it is at present. However, it is the undercurrent of despair running through the club in recent times that is so obvious. It's getting that way that I can hardly bear to open up the laptop on Sunday a.m. here to see how many we lost by. We have in many people's opinion a side good enough to compete at near the top of the table. But here we are, 10 games into the season and yet again languishing in the bottom five FFS! (OK we have a game in hand - away at Spurs! Gotta be worth 3 points - don't make me laugh!) Please don't give me the 'we always start badly' crap. If we always start badly, why hasn't Moyes done something about it? This has been going on for years and no change in sight. It is the height of folly to keep doing the same things over and over and then expect to get a different result. Then there is the 'we don't have the money' side of the saga. We do have a good side in many people's opinion. Well, do we need a better side, or is the one we have good enough? Can't have it both ways! Team selection and subs seems to be a major hurdle we have to overcome. Moyes fails badly in this department in many folks' opinion and it's hard to deny the reality. I hate to say this but I mentioned on here a couple of years ago that if Moyes didn't go then (as was the rumour) we'd still be having this discussion every season - as has proved to be the case. Jesus H. I love this club and have been a supporter for 60 years, but never have I been so dissillusioned and downhearted about it's management and future. The team lacks confidence, the manager lacks flair and originality and the management......'nuff said! FFS! Somebody please do something!

Couldn't (wouldn't?) score in a brothel for us and pops in two on debut for a second-rate team. Or maybe it's now he's away from Moyes tactics he can play with some flair......oh! Arteta scored too. Hmmm.......

God, I'm bored with all this ... 'what does the future hold with Mikel gone?'...'will Moyse walk?' stuff. Thought I'd pan out a few figures to see how we have fared over the past 10 years compared to the whole of the Prem since it started. Prem stats say that for the whole period we are 7th of the 7 teams that have been in since the start. We follow: Man. Utd Arsenal Chelsea Liverpool Villa Spurs We have the 7th best 'goals for', 6th best 'goals against' (after Spurs) and 7th 'goal difference'. For the past 10 seasons, given 20pts for first, down to 1 for 20th place the placings are as follows: Man Utd - 210pts Chelsea - 186 Arsenal - 182 Liverpool - 169 Spurs - 130 Everton - 125 Villa - 116 Newcastle - 101 Blackburn -100 Man City - 99 Bolton - 91 Fulham -89 Those are the teams that were in the Prem last season. Of the rest, Middlesborough were next at 69pts, West Ham - 63pts then it goes rapidly down to Charlton - 50pts Birmingham - 48 etc. etc. 'What does all this mean?' I hear you ask. It means essentially that (i) longevity in the Prem is absolutely vital and (ii) compared to the previous 10 seasons we are going great! The previous 10 seasons netted us a total of 68pts! We got 125pts in the next 10 seasons, 6th overall! Make of this what you will....at least it prevented me from having a total malfunction of the cerebral cortex:) But please....no more whingeing!!!!

Agree absolutely. I was about to post virtually the same, but you got there earlier! Got the bank off our back, without seriously putting us in the relegation zone. The time to take stock of where we are, giving us a more financial grounding. Hopefully the 'powers that be' learn something from this so we don't get this deep in the smelly stuff again. In all probability we'll be a selling club for the foreseeable future, so those who don't like it - get used to it! There is no fairy godmother out there with a wad of cash to buy a club that needs an overhaul both at board and ground facilities level - not as a business venture anyway. We are indeed lucky that this has happened at the start of the season and not in the January window - too little time to make corrections at that time. Let's start fresh.... get behind the boys in royal blue and make this the start of a new era! COYB!!!!!!

It hurts like hell to say so, but I have to agree. We all would like to have the money to buy a couple of decent strikers,a winger, etc etc. but I'm afraid some on here need a harsh dose of reality. Apart from having a fairy godmother wave a magic wand, where do we get the cash from to buy these players? Let's say you want another car, but don't have the cash. So you go to the loan arranger (and Tonto!) and they say,'What have you got as collateral?' You then remember that you've re-mortgaged the house already to buy the car you've got now - can't use that. The missus gets cranky with you because you're not earning enough to keep her in the manner to which she's become accustomed and all your friends give you shit on facebook, twitter and various websites because she says 'you don't perform'. The only way you'll get another car is by trading in the one you have now that's fully paid for and buying another for less money and buying the missus a bunch of flowers. This is reality. This is the way the club has to work to survive. Unless a fairy godmother in the shape of a buyer turns up at the front door at Goodison with a wad of cash, that will be the reality for this club for the forseeable future. As I said,it's crap but that is the reality of the situation. If the board had a way out of this, don't you think they would have taken it? Please don't insult our intelligence by coming up with some sort of conspiracy theory, or say 'the board doesn't care' or 'the board doesn't know football'. Everton FC is a business that also happens to be a football club. Do not get confused.In this league there can be no football club without being a business first. (See Portsmouth FC) So all of you whingers out there, get to your local timber merchant, buy some timber, build a bridge and GET OVER IT!

According to Villa fan sites, Moyes is the favoured choice of more than 50%. However, with Ancelotti available the plot thickens. What chance we get Ancelotti? Far lower than Villa's chances methinks.

Being an ex-pat I've seen only the G-man (in the pre-season tour of Oz) in the flesh and a good looker he was too! Sadly though, I feel that promising as these younger players may be, the whole first-team would have to be injured or down with flu before Moyes would risk anybody else. And that'a real shame. Moyse's blinkered attitude has produced a team that is entirely predictable and opposition teams have us well in hand. If he would only give these youngers a chance, (if only because the opposition doesn't know them) we can move away from being predictable to being a little unknown. And I don't mean throw them on 5 mins from the end when we're 2-0 down! I say give 'em a chance. God knows, we need something to break out of the rut we're in.

This whole thread so far is a sad reflection of fans attitude to a team that apparently can't be bothered to turn up. We don't care any more!!!! (We do really, but it hurts to put so much in for so little return). But I have to say that when this happens to a team this is where the manager earns his money. Shit, I can manage a team that's playing well and has it's collective tail up! But Moyse obviously can't do it when things are down. I could manage the team as well as he could at present, and I'd do it for half of what he gets too! Personally I think the squad is as good as any out of the top four. The shite performances are down to managerial ineptitude (big word...I might use that again some time ). Yes Moyse is good at picking out players at bargain rates and making them into Prem players, but thereafter he is way behind on tactics, motivation, player choice, players playing out of position, misplaced loyalty to inefficient players, untimely and meaningless substitutions etc. etc..... There comes a time when fans loyalty to the team is stretched (booed off against Reading) and managers (Everton manager famously pelted with cushions from the Goodison Rd. stand seating after a particularly bad performance.....I was there, but can't remember who it was...Harry Catterick I think). It makes me wonder just how bad do things have to get before Moyse resigns or is asked to? Let's not get into 'who would replace him' arguments as they are not relevant in a discussion about whether or not he is performing, which he quite plainly is not. There must be some understanding between Moyse and the board as most other managers with a season like this happening would be scanning the 'situations vacant' column in Football Managers Weekly or whatever. Dumped out of the Carling Cup and the FA Cup by lower division teams this year and a whole stack of underwhelming performances against 'cellar dwellers' in a similar situation at the bottom of the table does not by any stretch of the imagination constitute a season to be proud of. The blame has to be laid at the managers feet. He bought the players, he picks the team, he chooses the tactics, motivation is his responsibility. There is no room for excuses. I wouldn't mind so much if we lost games playing good football, but to lose because we couldn't be arsed is criminal. As I said earlier, I believe the squad is as good as any other outside the top four, they have lost their way because the manager is inept, fearful and over-reliant on out of form players. After saying all that, it's hard to believe that they can play so badly twice in a week (God help us) so I'm going for 1-1. Sorry, can't go for the win. 1-1 would be a great result now.

Couldn't agree more. While watching the Arsenal v Barca game I was struck mostly by the way both teams approached the game. Attack and defence, they were wholehearted. The midfielders were running at people, upsetting them and making space for others alongside. This is not because they have better players - all teams can play that way if they are coached to do so. My biggest problem with Moyes is that I don't think he knows how to do it! Backpedalling, too afraid to make mistakes, shot-shy footballers don't win games. The team needs to get out there and shake off the shackles and play free-flowing football (not necassarily 'sexy football'). If Moyes can't do it (and I don't think he can change his mind-set) he should go. Hellfire, any other manager in the Prem with his record (such as it is) would have gone 2 years ago. Living on borrowed time, I think.

Let's face it, if the lad's good enough he will play. Can't assume one way or the other about how he will go in the first team until he's been tried. If he's good enough we'll keep him (money being available, that is). I've been, and still am a Moyes critic, but I can't complain about his giving young 'uns an opportunity at the club. They will play if they're good enough in Moyes' mind (and thereby hangs the tail). To my mind there's no point in bringing in people and then not playing them, because he hasn't got the balls to risk dropping a current player who's out of form. Gueye is the classic example in this case. Something REALLY has to change at the club - the ideas are great, but the execution is nothing short of apalling.

Surely we won't let him go? FFS we need more strikers, not less! Saw him in the game against Brisbane in the down-under tour and he looked hungry and sharp. These are qualities we need at Goodison,as they appear to be in short supply especially amongst the forwards. Definately a 'no move' from me.

Sorry Matt, you said it all in just a few words. This is a tough league to be in, it's "take no prisoners" stuff. No club can afford the luxury of people not pulling their weight, especially the manager. Not saying he's not trying, but the record of the past 3 years or so says to be that he's lost his way big time in team selection and tactics. Someone said earlier about us having the lowest goals against - that must mean something. Well, yes it does. It says that Moyes knows how to organise a defence (he was a defender too you know!) However the 'goals for' column is looking pretty fooking sad and that really does say something. A season of low scoring draws will send you down to the Championship. Enough said. This has gone on for a few years now and Moyes hasn't learned a thing. Forget 'oh we'll come right in Feb' or some such. The time to fix it is now, not when we're in such dire shit only a miracle could save us(shades of West Ham), and if by some miracle we did survive, we'd do it all again next season. Sorry Mr. Moyes, time to go.

Absolutely spot-on. Most definately time for a change. I wonder if Moyes is following the lead of the board - don't change anything!(unless you are forced to). Most other managers in this situation would be scanning the "positions vacant" column in Prem Manager's Monthly Magazine.

What we need is to play decent sides in pre-season to get us ready for the start of the season. The one quality side we played took us apart with so much ease. You might say that's a reason not to play quality opposition in pre-season but I don't. I think Wolfsburg took us apart because of the crap we'd been playing before that game, so the players were shocked when up against a really good team. What we need is come the start of the season play the bastard players that have been playing during pre-season. Coleman and Maggie are just two players who played a large chunk of our pre-season games, especially Coleman, and looked very good by all accounts but now neither of them can get near the pitch for us. Absolutely spot on Romey- We've been doing the same thing for years & years now. When is Moyes going to learn? By the time we get it all together, we are 10/12 points down on the top group. What's the point of playing these "young 'uns" in pre-season, getting them into the groove with the 'A'squad, then leaving them on the bench when the senior members are struggling? Beats the shit out of me! Come on Moyes, show some guts man and put out a team that trys FFsake.

I saw the game in Brisbane. This bloke was perhaps the only one in the blues side that looked as though he was trying. Only a pre-season I know, but he looked sharp and eager for the ball and his goal was a really good opportunistic follow-up. Must have made his day too! Just signed up - into the top squad and on tour in Oz straight from a 2-bob froggie outfit!

Along those lines, does anyone have any really funny or apt names for various stadiums? ie Sunderland - The Stadium of Shite I'm not really that good at this, but there must be people out there who are! Let's see what you got!