Hafnia

Saha.

correct to an extent, the point i am making is that as soon as it is clear we are able to make good cash on a player we sell them. Saha was practically out of contract and able to call the shots, the sell on for saha was next to nothing. 1 million would have been a push. Saha is a class act, yet we shouldn't class our selves as a none selling club because we retained a 31 year old.

Are we a selling club.....only when the player asks to leave ?.

 

If Pienaar asks to leave we may have to sell.......same with Rodwell.Only because we don't want a player who's usettled.surely a SELLING club has to sell to survive, that's not us, is it.

 

Saha, it seems doesn't want to leave, so we didn't have to sell him.If he'd insisted on going, we would probably have had to let him go, does that make us a selling club.

 

If Torres suddenly decides he wants to go back to Spain, like Alonso....really wants to go back.....does that make liverpool a selling club ?....

 

Isn't every team a selling club, when a player wants to leave.

We are a selling club, because every time we have a player that another team wants, we end up selling them. The reason being is that our transfer budget is created by the sale of players. Liverpool historically have a good record of keeping their best players as they do not look at player sales as an important revenue stream, they look at qualifying for champs league. Alonso left because they tried to sell him the year before. Players usually want to leave when the current club can not match their ambitions financially or professionally, till we can do that, we will be a selling club. Sad but true. The sale of Rodwell will be another step to us being viewed in the same way that West Ham are. Imagine where they would be if they kept the ferdinands, carricks, coles, defoes, lampards....champs league every year with an ability to stand up against the top 4 financially.

Given the nature of the game putting Arteta on was insane. Does anyone think that the likes of carragher and gerrard were thinbking "let's take it easy on him, he's just had a bad injury", I would have moved Neville into centre mid instead of fellaini and played coleman at right back. Arteta is weeks away from being match fit.

I do think fans can get a little carried away in their praises of Moyes, I think he has been a fantastic manager for us, but that is not to say he has weaknesses. With Liverpool at 10 men he should have gone with Saha, Yak and Cahill as a 3 pronged attack straight away, it's no good doing that when they were defending a 1-0 lead.

I think it's time to drop Saha, maybe it's the only way we can get his attitude to change, not looked himself of recent.

All in all just gutted, got to face gloating RS and I haven't got any come backs like the last game where we deserved to win. They out fought and out played us.

Well i'm sure Bill will use his brokering skills and get the best possible deal for the club.

This may be conjecture, but when will we be in the position to be able to laugh at bids for our players? We are a selling club, end of. Whilst being a sellng club we may as well get used to mid table mediocrity whie the top 4 continue to fight for the best players.

Investment is needed and quick, to update the stadium and create a corporate revenue stream, it may take someone who is prepared to put in a vast sum which we could self serve within a 5-6 plan which would evidently mean we would need to qualify for champions league within that time frame. Under a good manager 2-3 championms league campaigns would change the dynamics of the club, one of which would be we could retain our best talent and pay the market rate for the best players to want to remain at the club.

The sale of Rodwell can never be seen as good business, whether it is for £20m, £30m. Good business is having the club in a solid position where our best players are out on the pitch competing in a blue shirt, maximising match day revenue, and marketing the club in the right way.

Nothing greedy about him. He came pay as you play. Proved himself as quality, knows his market value and got it. Simple as. Tell me a striker of similar ilk who is on less than 60k a week. I just wish his ability was matched by desire, on his day he is awesome, when he doesn't feel like it get him off the pitch. Have a feelin that arteta will get the best out of him in the way gerrard does with torres.

Don't really wanna get involved in this but wanted to make one comment, I saw an interview with BK where he talked about sacking Walter and WS asked him if he had anyone in mind. BK apparently mentioned Moyse and WS said "you can do much worse". So on that basis, WS only seconded BK's views. Not sure how true that is but it is literally from the horses (BK's) mouth (albeit after the event).

We've all knocked BK in the past, mainly because he hasn't had the funds to match the so called big 4 but admittedly he has done us proud in not selling us out, whether his reasons for not doing so were honourable or not (some suggest he just didn't want to sell but I dunno)! He's proud to be a Blue as are the rest of us so on the eve of the Derby, let's stop all the fussin and the feudin and get behind the team and pray for a win tomorra COYB FTRS!!!!

Agreed, one thing I don't dispute is backing the 11 out there. Get stuck in boys, Fellaini to score, i'm betting on it. Set pieces are gonna be a nightmare for them tomorrow. If Bill gets on and scores, i'll forget Kings Dock!

Of course they would, what's your point? Thousands of fans don't have the finances to be in his position.

 

 

Recommended by Walter Smith (evidence?) - anyway, employed by Kenwright. He didn't have to employ Moyes on someone's say so.

 

 

 

 

Going rate? Vidic going to Real Madrid for £20m is going rate, Lescott is not a £20m player.

 

 

Of course we can, that comment alone gives me brain ache...if you have a cold and see someone with the flu, you don't wish you had the flu too - you are thankful you are not in the same state of health.

The mere fact we have not in financial turmoil (don't try to confuse our debt as turmoil) with the threat of winding up orders is something to be thankful for in the current climate.

 

 

Spoken like a true Kenwright basher.

One by one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/bill-kenwright-the-son-of-the-stage-turning-goodison-into-his-very-own-theatre-of-dreams-611699.html

Here is proof of Walters recommendation from Bills mouth, plus promises of the Kings dock.

Thousand of fans don't have the money to be in his position, that's correct, and neither does he.

Lescott is an England international who can play left back, centre half and has a good scoring record. He is worth £20m because that is what city were prepared to pay, has Vidic gone for £20m? No. Will he go for £20m? Depends whether Ferguson wants to keep him till his contract ends or at what price to sell. Regardless... kenwright brokering deals a skill? not really, he sells players who want to leave the club and gets the best price he can, if you sell your house for what someone is prepared to pay for it does that make you skilled? Not really.

If it wasn't for Moyes ability to run this club on nothing Kenwright would be out by now. So let's not celebrate Bill, our success on the field has very little to do with him.

Of course they would, what's your point? Thousands of fans don't have the finances to be in his position.

 

 

Recommended by Walter Smith (evidence?) - anyway, employed by Kenwright. He didn't have to employ Moyes on someone's say so.

 

 

Going rate? Vidic going to Real Madrid for £20m is going rate, Lescott is not a £20m player.

 

 

Of course we can, that comment alone gives me brain ache...if you have a cold and see someone with the flu, you don't wish you had the flu too - you are thankful you are not in the same state of health.

The mere fact we have not in financial turmoil (don't try to confuse our debt as turmoil) with the threat of winding up orders is something to be thankful for in the current climate.

 

 

Spoken like a true Kenwright basher.

I'll start the counter views! The positive about bill is that he is very visible and passionate about the club in a way few clubs could boast from a chairman. That said, many of the thousands of fans would be just as passionate in such a position. To champion a chairman because he is a fan would be short sighted. You have to look at the value he gives. If he is to be given credit for moyes, who was actually personally recommended by walter smith then he needs to be held accountable for kings dock also. Fact is kenwright messed that one up badly. A defining moment in the clubs history gone, was it his battle with gregg, his time spent in london on theatre business? Whatever, he was on the hook for that decision. Brokering deals? Getting 20m for lescott was going rate, it's only his poor form for city that is justifying it. You can't be thankful for bill because clubs like portsmouth are worse off, do you celebrate having a cold when you see someone with the flu? When it boils down to it there isn't much to champion about kenwright, applying the same passion for the team in line with bill is just wrong. Kenwright taking credit for team performances is like getting credit for a crackin meal made by your wife just cos you went shopping with the list she gave you. especially when you are eating it in a house that you needed to move from years ago when the mansion you dreamed of was affordable.

Baros scored one more goal than rooney. Played more games and two of his goals were against a poor latvian team. Let's not even start comparing the attributes of baros to rooney it's almost like comparing kevin kilbane to pienaar. Rooney was being doubled up on in our team, which if we had players to complement him would have given us more space to exploit. It has gone full circle undoubtedly, his talent has gone to help united win a host of trophys, we never had the financial status to hold on to him, nor the players to complement him. Whatever part he played in leaving you can certainly be sure the dire finances of the club meant it had to happen. If there was ever a sure thing in terms of an 18 year old set to become a world class player it was him. Was anyone surprised when they seen his hattrick debut, goal against newcastle, double against middlesboro? No. That's why selling him with two years left made no sense.

Ten million up front. Rest of payments were installments and based on uniteds success. Given that chelsea had just spent 30 million on essien it hardly suggests we should have snapped their hands off. To compare rooneys euro campaign to baros is outrageous. Rooney single handedly took the game to one of the best teams in the world in france, at times overshadowing zidane drawing superlatives from thierry henry, with gerrard claiming he was the best player in europe. He didn't mention baros funny enough, his liverpool team mate. Sure, let's give bill praise for selling our assets, he's had plenty of practice.

I can't see how any team can be better off without one of the best players in the world. We became a better team because the sale of rooney to united arguably gave us money, a great leader in neville, and a top class goal keeper. Of course such a sale creates siege mentality also. Does anyone honestly believe that rooney in our side over the last two years would not have made us achieve champions league? If we made improvements to the team without rooney being sold we would be in a far stronger position. But hey, that brings me back to the fact, we needed to sell rooney to survive, he had two years left on his contract, not six months. We were under no risk to sell in terms of loss of value. That to me says it's more than just rooney wanting to leave. Every club in europe would have wanted him united were the first and we sold him to them on the drip, why? Cos we were desperate. It was not a great deal, for someone with potential alone maybe, but he had just single handedly carried englands hopes in the euro's.

It may seem short sighted in your opinion but either way I was arguing more against people saying that he was a pawn and was forced out of the club

 

Really , so we managed to keep Lescott then and obviously the Board wanted Barmby to join the Shite? You calim I am short sighted for beleiving that Rooney wanted to go, even though he has just admitted it again on Evertontv, but you cant see that players have all the power these days and that if they want a move invariably they get thier own way

I discussed this with someone yesterday, unless we go back to the days when players share buses with the fans, have mortgages, need to take up physiotherapy after their careers then ultimately player power will rule. Look at Birmingham, those players are fighting for new contracts and their performances have been great because of it.

We will never know what goes on behind the scenes, but I guess the question I need to ask myself is 'do I believe the chairman and the board are honest with the fans' - the answer I am afraid is no. The sale of Rooney will always be one of the great unanswered questions.

I don't have an issue with ability, he is far more accomplished than Kevin Kilbane, Simon Davies ever could have dreamed to be. His left foot is awesome and he can go past a man when needed. It's the fact that he is hiding, it is not on, when we get the ball he does not show for a pass, blimey Tony Hibbert for all his technical failings shows the bottle and desire to help his team mates out. I think we have a player who needs a rocket or arm round the shoulder, one of them at least. We do not have team where someone can hide, we need 11 committed to helping each other.

I have always been respectful of players who when things aren't going well will still demand the ball, we will forget the 10 bad passes etc for the one beauty that creates a goal.

So are you saying that Rooney didnt put in a transfer request?

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/3592494.stm

 

"Both United and Newcastle are fighting it out for the 18-year-old who handed in a transfer request on Friday. "

 

http://manchesterunited.y2u.co.uk/MU23_Wayne_Rooney.htm

 

"Rooney first appeared for Everton in the youth team, and during his time there, after scoring a wonder-goal in the FA Youth Cup, he revealed a T-shirt under his jersey that read "Once a blue, Always a blue". [2] However, he would end up playing just two seasons in the Everton first team before demanding, and then executing, a transfer"

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-315751/Moyes-gets-tough-Rooney-request.html

 

"The Everton boss was reacting in the wake of Rooney's transfer request today which heightens the prospect of him joining Manchester United or Newcastle

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-315751/Moyes-gets-tough-Rooney-request.html

 

"The Everton boss was reacting in the wake of Rooney's transfer request today which heightens the prospect of him joining Manchester United or Newcastle"

 

Or are you saying Rooney was never on the phone to Kenwright?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/may/23/everton-fa-cup-final-bill-kenwright-interview

 

 

"In his time, Kenwright has been accused by fans of forcing Wayne Rooney out ("even though I'd had the lad in tears on the phone, ­pleading with me to let him go")"

 

 

Now you may be of the opinion that BK is a liar and is making the entire phone call up but a first hand account of an event is proof enough for me. Rooney has never denied it by the way

 

Rooney even goes into the reasons why he put in a transfer request in his autobiography so I would say that was fact

You don't need to have an inquisitive mind to realise that the club had an extremely strong motive 1. To sell Rooney - given the dire financial position we we in and 2. To ensure it is covered up as best as possible to avoid what would have been a revolt ala Fiorentine re Batistuta sale and what would potentially happen in Athletico if Aguero is sold.

Sure some could have been orchestrated by Rooney, but to hold Rooney solely accountable is very short sighted. We had borrowed £10m to keep administrators away from Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, which was paid back with the Rooney money. Was the sale of Rooney needed? Well put it this way look at Victor Moses at Crystal Palace now, a player worth at least £5m plus is going to be sold by the administrators for £1.25m in what is classed as a fire sale - what would Rooney have gone for £8m, £10m? with a 10 point reduction?

Rooney had 2 years on his contract, would never turn up to a game and give less than 100%, we knew he was world class and was going to get better, why did we sell? He couldn't force the sale? He was contracted to us, was he going to sit and rot in the reserves and play in front of 500 fans a week?

Hardly work for a conspiracy theorist.

 

Are you for real??

 

It is not my opinion that Rooney put in a transfer request nor is it my opinion that he made an emotional phone call to Kenwright begging him to let him leave they are well documented facts

 

If you had bothered to read my posts I dont hold a grudge against Rooney what pisses me off is people trying to make out he was a"pawn" in the whole saga or that he was forced out in any way

 

The reason I say he shat on the club was because he led everybody on pretending that he was going to sign a new contract and that he was ahappy at the club ( Oncea blue always a blue-- remember that?) then with less than right at the end of the transfer window he forces through a move leaving Moyse no time to rebuild his side

dunc, it seems you take as fact what you choose to believe. Look at the minutes from the 2004 agm. We paid stretford 1.5m when rooney was sold. Interesting transcript showing the verbal beating that kenwright got from someone clued up on what happened. Stretford claimed he was told 4 months prior to rooney being sold that he was instructed to find a buyer. Bill was challenged to sue him if this was incorrect, did this happen? That's not opinion. You can find it on scribed. Did rooney want to leave? Whatever. Would it have made any difference? No. We are fans of a football club that happens to have been a very badly run business, rooney being sold was the only option at the time. In years gone by since, we have no real assets. I admire your passion, unfortunately that does not make you right.

Strangely enough Pienaar was told by Saha of the rumoured Bayern interest...

Against Pienaar in training, so he understands what an impact a player who has determination, work ethic and consistency can have over his opponent.

At the moment his attitude is not good enough at all, no show for the ball, marks his opponent when we have the ball???!!!

I certainly wouldn't say he was a victim, but an easily manipulated pawn most definately, if we never sold Rooney what would have happened? It was clear that we were on the brink of administration and our one major asset was Rooney. Along with the Gary Speed saga this is something we would never get to the bottom of. To know that a staunch blue like Alan Stubbs remains to this day a close friend tells you all you need to know, would you remian a close friend to a team mate who displayed such lack of loyalty?

The anger and hurt I felt at the time was very much directed at Rooney, when you stand back and look at the money we got which effectively kept us afloat, was it realy Rooney wanting to go that did it? In the end I think he wanted to go, bit I believe it was initially started because the club needed him to go. Again this is a subject that will divide many fans, the sale of Rooney in my opinion was not an option, it had to happen. Just think if we got Kings Dock we would have likely been in a position to build a team around the lad. One day he will be back, I think he has probably had plenty of time to reflect and I feel that if he won something with the club he would enjoy that more than anything he has won before... maybe it's wishful thinking.

I've read an awful lot into the whole Rooney saga, the bottomline is that we needed to sell him to stay afloat, end of matter. Sure the lad has reacted badly at times which you would expect given the initial outpouring of anger over the deal, and the hatred he faced. I do feel that the club could have made it alot smoother by stating that he was going to be sold no matter what. The lad was a pawn, he wanted to play football and it was worked at a high level to cash in on him. Do not be under any illusions about that, he had just come back from almost single handedly running the show at the Euro's and we had no media plans to use him for the next season!

As if at the age of 18 he was greedy enough to demand a move for money, the lad had all he ever needed, a bit of dosh, a nice girlfriend, playing for his club. The club should have stated that he was sold because the money was the reason. He no doubt wants to play for the club again, he has almost satisfied his domestic need for medals. I know someone who works for the club at a decent level, at the time of the transfer he stated he thought Rooney would play for us again... I am starting to sense that.

End of the day, we were not in the right place to keep a talent like his, now?.... maybe, let's see what happpens with Rodwell.

Take away Cahills goals and you are left with a very average midfield player, his first touch ain't great and he gives the ball away far too frequently. Regardless he has been a great signing. Cahill plays best when Arteta plays, when was the last time cahill played great? Arteta's composure and ability on the ball allows Tim the freedom to bomb forward.

Fellaini has gone some way to proving me wrong, however if we are talking any where above £15m then we have got to look at that, he has played well recently and if he continues to improve then great. My primary concern is getting Pienaar signed up on a 4 year deal.

If someone wants to pay over the odds for Fellaini let them.

If Stretford is still his agent then a move could well be on the cards!!!

We aren't in the market to afford him, however with Man Utd's debt being released on news, there has been talk of Barca or Real weighing up a £80m bid to take him in the summer, especially if he stars in the world cup.

I am aware that there is a sell on clause (I think it's 25% of anything over £20m - need clarifying if poss)

If he was to go for £80m - that would mean a £15m pay day for us....nice. That would take the overall pay day for the club to approx £40m.

This is something we need to happen...

Cahill was at fault for their goal. Ball cleared out, he waited for pass rather than move towards the ball and protect it. They moved forward and scored. Tim's lack of basics at times is annoying.

No, No, No, No. Finding money for a £2.5m player that has 2 years left and who is on the decline?

Tell you what, get the extra dosh and get Victor Moses then I will be happy.