Bailey

At least he is at the right age to come through once Howard calls it a day. Never seen (or heard of) him before so no idea if he is any good but if he is then its us sorted between the sticks for a while.

Its not really the same way though is it. His teams always carry a threat of some sort, despite the defensive tactics. Allardyce just got lucky because they had enough alright chances to score especially with the calibre of player they have. I think if they played that game 100 times with the same tactics they would probably lose well over 90% of them!

His first touch isn't the greatest, but I think that a lot of the time it gets over played. More recently he has played a lot with his back to goal being pressed by defenders and most strikers in the league are going to have issues controlling a ball under that type of pressure. It is a weakness in his game but he doesnt have too many more IMO. He is quick, strong, makes very good runs, excellent finisher (and a first time finisher too), he can use both feet and he can take players on (Newcastle & Man City goals as examples). He is a good header-er of the ball from crosses (not very good from long balls forward strangely) and he is an intelligent footballer. I wouldnt say his decision making is great but its decent enough for a player his age. I get what Steve_E says because if you look at his goals, a lot of them have come from counter attacks or at least where he has space to run into (City, Newcastle, West Ham (ish), Villa, Soton etc) and its under those circumstances that he is at his best. A lot of the problems for him at the moment come from his team mates IMO. In previous games there have been oppurtunities for the ball to be played to him in space and they have tried a different ball. Even in the 20-ish mins he played in the derby I noted him standing in space on the edge of the box ready to receive a pass but no-one bothered (Pienaar & Barkley the main culprits). I think I saw this on 4 or 5 occasions and at least in two of those occasions when Pienaar had the ball, Lukaku would have had enough time to turn and shoot from 18-20 yards (Barkley had dragged Gerard away) but instead it went wide again. At the very least Lukaku would have been able to a through ball etc. He hasnt been at his best recently, but at the same time I dont think his team mates, and to an extent his manager (WBA especially) have helped get the best out of him.

Wasnt expecting this one!

I think its more to the fact that we wasnt comfortable with the ball high up the pitch. Defensively I thought he did well enough though.

No I'm not contradicting myself. Its possible for one team to have good tactics and the other ones to be better. If the individual errors hadnt exposed us our tactics would have worked pretty well. As soon as they scored the first we were always going to find it difficult given how good they are on the counter attack. If we score the first, we are in the perfect position to control the game. Other than Pienaar not playing, I'm not sure what else we could have done differently that would have resulted in a different scoreline given the individual errors that were made. Yes they did, especially early on but not so much as the game progressed (because they didnt need to being 2 or more ahead). The 2nd goal came from them pressing us and so did the 4th. I cant remember exactly how the 3rd materialised now or the penalty but they were in our faces from the word go and even the Sturridge chance late in the 2nd half came from them pressing in our half of the pitch causing Jags to misplace his pass. We didnt press enough IMO, as when we did we caused them problems and turned the ball over ourselves. When we conceded possession we dropped deeper and got set and we looked solid defensively when we got into that position. Anyway, its not even important now, Im sure we have both got plenty off our chest . Hopefully we get a reaction against Villa as the only consolation to being beaten by that lot is to beat them in the race for 4th. Just a general question, because I have heard a lot of people saying what was wrong but not how we could have changed things for the better. I wasn't intending to add a bitchy tone although I appreciate it does come across like that sometimes! I agree 3/5 at the back would have worked nicely or at least better, but I hadn't even considered that before the match and I didn't see anyone else either which makes it quite after the event. I think Mirallas is a good focal point as a striker when he has space to exploit and my worry about moving him would be that he was having such a good game anyway that forcing him to move into a different position might have reduced his effectiveness. Other than his goals Naismith worked quite well at finding space, and moving the CB's around and that's why I think Martinez wanted him in there, especially with him being good in the air. I don't think he did too badly in the grand scheme of things playing as a striker. A couple of times he linked up nicely and he wasn't too far off scoring from McCarthys scuffed shot. Martinez says that they pushed forward too aggressively which I wouldn't disagree with as being a contributing factor, but I'm sure he knows that it was basic individual errors from key players that caused those players to become out of position its just not like he is going to give them a dressing down in public. In short my view is that it was them individual errors which exposed key weaknesses in our system and whilst I do agree that being too attacking, or pressing high in attack or not having lightening quick defenders are minor contributing factors which caused the house to fall in, being attacking and pressing high in attack would have been a strength of the system had we kept hold of the ball. You take those strengths away and we aren't the same team. Fair enough with that last bit Matt, like I mentioned with GR I think we have all vented for a bit now and hopefully this is the kick up the backside we needed! I hope you're feeling better now btw!

So how exactly would you have proposed that we go about our game yesterday then Matt seeing as Martinez got it so wrong? Bearing in mind Hibbert & McGeady arent match fit (as I guess thats the angle you are going to take). Why would you bring a pacey winger on when a striker has gone off and we needed someone who could play up front and scored two goals at the weekend? Pienaar was clearly not right and I do agree that he should not have played and Osman should have started. We needed a player to keep hold of possession and bring us forward which Osman did well. I didnt see anything too wrong in the performance of Barkley. Gerrard was excellent and his role was to keep him quiet and the way Liverpool packed the defence it became difficult for him to find space. I cant think of anyone else who could have come into that position and done as well. I didnt think that Alcaraz wasnt fit enough and he did a lot of good things in the game. He got caught out on a few occasions and mostly when the midfield were caught out and he had no cover. Him and Jags didnt look the most organised between them and 3 days prep time (possibly less given they might not have trained due to niggles) probably didnt help either. IMO the biggest culprits for our defeat come from the likes of Barry, Baines, Jags and Pienaar who all kept turning the ball over when we had good possession and that is what cost us the game not some of the bullshit I have been hearing on this forum. I understand a lot of people are venting and that's all well and good cos that match deserved a good vent but lets not act like this is the end of the world, lets not start turning on the manager and players who have done so well up to now. It was a very bad game with several individual errors. Tactically I didnt think it was bad, but Rodgers really did have his tactics perfect and players executed those tactics and they exposed us in the phases of the game that we are most vulnerable.

But we couldnt be more patient in our build up because Liverpool were pressing us high up the pitch! If we did that it would turn into a game of hoof ball. Add that to the fact that we would then give the likes of Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho more room in the final third and you're asking for just as much trouble. Thought Stones did alright as well, certainly no fault of his for the goals. For the most part he did alright going forward and getting into attacking positions but he didnt have the final ball. The same problem Coleman had at the start of the season. Coleman would have done sweet fuck all to stop that goal. He is quick but he would have been in the same sort of starting position. Once again I repeat that if Barry/Baines hadnt lost possession he would have been in the perfect space to the receive the ball, like he was for a lot of the game. Alcaraz is quicker than Heitinga and given current form he is a better defender. He got caught out on a few occasions but he also did a lot of good defensive work as well. Jagielka is pretty quick but Suarez is quicker. They gave Suarez a start and its no surprise that he beat them. Again pace isnt the issue, its giving the ball away in the first place that is. You seem to have an ability to complete ignore the cause of the problem. Good write up and spot on. I don't think you can aim too much criticism at Naismith because its a difficult role to play. He made some decent runs and he linked up play nicely without showing any real quality.

Haha ok if you say so. I never said clear cut, but they were good chances nevertheless and on another day could have gone in. Spot on.

The reason why we lost this game wasnt because we pressed too high up or anything like that. They attempted to play a similar style at ours (where a counter attacking style would suit the away team more) but we shut them down because we stopped them from playing for 90% of the game. Today we gave them too much space and time. We didnt press them hard enough IMO and part of that is probably due to the changes in the squad and fitness of certain players too. Tbh I didnt see anything wrong with Stones for the goals, 2nd goal we shouldnt have lost possession and 3rd goal Jags and Alcaraz were away with the fairies. If Stones stays back, we struggle to move the ball out of defence even more, then we end up going long and then we end up down shits creek yet again. We could have sat back on the counter, but we would have probably had the same problems moving the ball forward as the scenario above and in the same way Liverpool did at times when we pressed them up the pitch. It fucked up badly tonight and we were horribly exposed, but Im sure Martinez set out to close them quicker and keep the ball better and I bet he wouldnt change that philosophy and I dont think he should do either. For years I havent wanted to attack teams and try and play the right way. We tried it today and it didnt work for whatever reason but at least we tried.

8 yards out with no-one near him, of course its a chance?

Just cos they were off target doesnt stop it being a chance. Does that mean Sturridge's penalty miss wasn't a chance?

I thought Osman did a lot of good things actually, lacked clinicism but his link up play with Baines & Mirallas was pretty decent on the whole.

Yes we did. Mirallas had a couple of good chances, Jags had one, Stones free header, the McCarthy/Naismith. Nothing as guilt edged as the Liverpool chances obviously but on another day we could have scored a couple (and on another day they could have scored 5 or 6)

5 across the back would have been a good idea actually in hindsight. I think that would have worked quite well actually.

Id rather have to stay up... Ill be having nightmares after that game!

What else are we going to do? Everyone was moaning to high heaven that we changed the way we played against WBA. We go back to our more typical style of play and then we should have changed it up. Even if we had Usain Bolt in defence some of them goals would still have been conceded. Tactically, Liverpool got it spot on and the way the game developed played right into their hands given the pace and versatility of their attack. They pressed us really well and we got caught in no mans land too often when we lost the ball. We played in the same style at home, but the difference in that game was the high energy and tempo which we didn't have today especially in defence. When we pressed them as a unit we caused them problems and turned the ball over quickly, but we got spooked early and dropped off and gave them too much time and space in general, which couple with our errors in possession or marking led to silly goals being conceded.

Mirallas. Barkley and McCarthy did ok too and so did Osman when he came on.

Exactly. We havent hidden, we havent sat back and let them win. Players have fucked up and Liverpool have been clinical. I'm gutted but im not disheartened, because Im sure we will learn from this and come back stronger.

Stones with a free header but gets a poor connection.

How did we not score... Good play.

Bloody decision making again... Good defensive work from Stones though.

Its all well and good creating space for Stones, but he doesnt really know what to do on the ball (understandably) and it ends up fizzing out.

Thank God, there is a sane person still in here!

Fucking hell... Awful decision making from Howard this time, back line arent in a line either. Jeez that was a poor penalty.